Approaching uncontrolled airport at same time

fozzie bear

fozzie bear

Filing Flight Plan
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Jeff
It's like driving up to a 4-way stop sign at the same time as another person and everyone keeps waving the other on.

This has been my concern ever since I began my training. What to do when arriving the same time as another airplane. It doesn't stress me anymore because with a little experience, I have figured out how to deal with it.

On a solo XC yesterday, I was approaching an uncontrolled airport and was being more diligent than normal with radio communications starting from about 9 miles out. I was reaching pattern altitude about 4 miles out and called my position knowing I was going to cross the runway and enter downwind. By that time, I was already committed to crossing at pattern altitude and direct turn to midfield since I hadn't heard from anyone else. Next, a faster plane (bonanza v. c172) called at 9 mile inbound about 2000 feet higher than me from the opposite (pattern) side of the runway. No problem, let's see how this plays out. I called at 2 miles to mid field and they responded they were on an extended base, so I did a quick 360, saw them on final as I was about to cross mid field, entered the pattern, landed, and didn't think much of it. I'm not upset about anything, just thinking that I was lower and closer to the pattern, and announced my position first. I can personally make arguments for both sides.

How does everyone else deal with the situation of arriving at the same time?

By the way, the purpose of that trip was to take my knowledge exams (nothing like waiting until the last minute). 95. Now just about ready for the check ride in the next month or so hopefully. Sorry, but no one else in my real life really cares, had to tell someone.
 
It is all just coordination as you did. Typically though, I will not be at patter altitude 4 miles out - maybe one mile out, but 4 miles out feels too low… you won't make the runway from 4 miles out at pattern altitude if the spinner stops spinning.
 
Just my opinion.. your situation makes a good case for flying the crosswind beyond the departure end of the runway. More options that way. You could have worked your turns or slowed up to allow time for him. Probably better than doing a 360 in the vicinity of the airport.


You also could have approached the runway and turned right to fly an upwind.
 
fozzie bear said:
It's like driving up to a 4-way stop sign at the same time as another person and everyone keeps waving the other on.
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No. It's more like a "traffic circle", where you go around the airport.

fozzie bear said:
...I was already committed to crossing at pattern altitude and direct turn to midfield since I hadn't heard from anyone else.
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Nooooo. Suppose the other guy has no radio and decides to do the same as you--but for the opposite runway? Bang! You're both dead. Didn't see each other through the bug stains on the window. Traffic pattern legs go around the airport not over it.

dtuuri
 
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I agree that there are several different ways to do things. That is why I posted the situation. Knowing I may get criticized, I wanted to see how others do things other than the way I was taught. That's how I learn best. I never have liked crossing the departure end though. I would like to think I would be aware enough to look/listen for departing traffic. However, one time on climbout, someone crossed right in front of me crossing at the departure end.
 
fozzie bear said:
It's like driving up to a 4-way stop sign at the same time as another person and everyone keeps waving the other on.

This has been my concern ever since I began my training. What to do when arriving the same time as another airplane. It doesn't stress me anymore because with a little experience, I have figured out how to deal with it.

On a solo XC yesterday, I was approaching an uncontrolled airport and was being more diligent than normal with radio communications starting from about 9 miles out. I was reaching pattern altitude about 4 miles out and called my position knowing I was going to cross the runway and enter downwind. By that time, I was already committed to crossing at pattern altitude and direct turn to midfield since I hadn't heard from anyone else. Next, a faster plane (bonanza v. c172) called at 9 mile inbound about 2000 feet higher than me from the opposite (pattern) side of the runway. No problem, let's see how this plays out. I called at 2 miles to mid field and they responded they were on an extended base, so I did a quick 360, saw them on final as I was about to cross mid field, entered the pattern, landed, and didn't think much of it. I'm not upset about anything, just thinking that I was lower and closer to the pattern, and announced my position first. I can personally make arguments for both sides.

How does everyone else deal with the situation of arriving at the same time?

By the way, the purpose of that trip was to take my knowledge exams (nothing like waiting until the last minute). 95. Now just about ready for the check ride in the next month or so hopefully. Sorry, but no one else in my real life really cares, had to tell someone.
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Irrelevant. 91.113 is the only regulation on point and it applies only on final.

I've always given way to the other plane in similar situations...that way, I can devote all of my attention to my airplane.

Bob Gardner
 
I believe the answer is "Yield the right," although I haven't read the FARs in quite a while now...
 
bobmrg said:
Irrelevant. 91.113 is the only regulation on point and it applies only on final.
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It also applies only in the pattern.

There are no regulations on the particular situation at hand.

A good rule of thumb is to let the other guy get away with whatever and keep him in sight. You can be right and dead at the same time.
 
MAKG1 said:
... A good rule of thumb is to let the other guy get away with whatever and keep him in sight. You can be right and dead at the same time.
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These are wise words for life in general, not just flying (but especially in flying). A big mistake people tend to make is not only wanting to BE in the right, but to have other people acknowledge that fact. This attitude just leads to trouble... driving and flying are probably the most frequently encountered, and potentially dangerous, situations where this attitude can really become problematic.

If someone wants to be do something incorrectly... let them. And give them a wide berth, since such people tend to be ticking time bombs.

(please note: I'm not saying that the Bonanza in the OP's story was necessarily in the wrong... I'm just saying that whether he was wrong or right is largely irrelevant)
 
My instructor used to say fly your own airplane you can't control what anyone else does. Crossing midfield at pattern altitude sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless I am missing something.
 
DFH65 said:
My instructor used to say fly your own airplane you can't control what anyone else does. Crossing midfield at pattern altitude sounds like a bad idea to me. Unless I am missing something.
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The only thing you're missing is that it's standard outside the US.

But inside, yes, that's a bad idea due to multiple rapidly converging lines of traffic. But people do it. It's a better idea to cross 500 feet above the highest pattern altitude (it's not that unusual for an airport to have more than one).
 
Thanks for the comments so far. I wasn't intending to ask about who was right or wrong, although I guess I did. I just wanted to see others opinions on what you do in that situation to help me become a better pilot.
 
dtuuri said:
Nooooo. Suppose the other guy has no radio and decides to do the same as you--but for the opposite runway? Bang! You're both dead. Didn't see each other through the bug stains on the window. Traffic pattern legs go around the airport not over it.
dtuuri
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There are many schools of thought on this. To expect that people will do exactly what you think they should is folly. I do not claim that my way is the only way, but I have been taught by multiple instructors to fly a midfield crossing (500 feet above TPA) to downwind if approaching from the other side. I have been explicitly told that the safest place is directly over the runway. If you try to cross at the departure side of the run way, you may cross paths with planes taking off. If one takes off, and turns crosswind, they might climb into your path. Farther away from the departure end, and you may conflict with departing traffic departing straight out. I am always nervous when I am crossing off of the departure end of an airport because departing traffic climbing straight out might be hard to see.

It is true if another plane wants to cross the other way to land the opposite direction, you may have a problem. But that seems less likely if the winds are favoring a particular direction. No system is perfect.
 
Some thought does matter here….

My home airport has a 2400 foot runway. At 1500 AGL, the only traffic I'm seeing over the departure end is helicopter traffic, and they could show up just as easily at midfield.

Now, at a 6000 foot runway, you'll be seeing departing traffic.
 
Last weekend I was approaching my home drome from the west. I crossed mid field but when I do this I'm always 500ft over TPA. Once over the ap I start my turn to downwind and I drop my altitude. Well as I was crossing, I heard a call from a Seminole that he was on a 10 mile final shooting the rnav to 18. I knew he was in a twin and I was pretty sure I could squeak in with my 172. But I called up and over flew the pattern to the east and flew around a bit to give it all to him. It didn't take long to hear him say he was short final which was my cue to enter the 45 to downwind and land. Many different ways to do it. I had time so I was okay to leave and re enter.
 
PPC1052 said:
I have been explicitly told that the safest place is directly over the runway. If you try to cross at the departure side of the run way, you may cross paths with planes taking off. If one takes off, and turns crosswind, they might climb into your path. Farther away from the departure end, and you may conflict with departing traffic departing straight out. I am always nervous when I am crossing off of the departure end of an airport because departing traffic climbing straight out might be hard to see.
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In each of those cases you have a gentler merge than blasting over the top into oncoming traffic, so it's an irrational fear. Somebody taking off has the right of way, if there's a just God and not just a Chief Counsel, so they aren't "climbing into your path", you are "giving way to them".

dtuuri
 
PPC1052 said:
I have been explicitly told that the safest place is directly over the runway.
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I know this is a slight rabbit trail and not trying to diverge this off topic but I would say that if you are going to an unfamiliar airport please verify that there is not a skydiving operation on the field (chart symbol etc) before doing a mid field cross. On fields where skydiving is going on, directly over the runway is def NOT the safest place.

Back on the OP topic... I personally would have just continued on without the 360. You stated you were 2 miles from midfield and he was on an extended base. Obviously he was approaching faster than you and most likely would have been either on final or about to turn final when you were making your turn to downwind. Even if he was on base when you were turning downwind you could then simply extend your downwind a little to accommodate if needed.

All in all it is getting experience and gaining comfort flying with other aircraft in different parts of the pattern. Good luck on your tests, we're all here to listen and actively participate in discussions that 90% of other people could care less ;) welcome to the community.
 
Same as a four way stop in cars, approaching an airport the cheapest ****box flying machine/boldest pilot has the right of way.
 
dtuuri said:
Somebody taking off has the right of way, if there's a just God and not just a Chief Counsel, so they aren't "climbing into your path", you are "giving way to them".

dtuuri
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Right of way isn't the issue when you can't see. My plane doesn't have a window in the floor.

Frankly, I think the fear of a head on over the middle is irrational. But that's not really relevant. My point is to be flexible. We aren't all going to agree what is safest, there is not a specific instruction on the issue in the regs, so be prepared for anything. Don't get hung up because you think the other guy is a moron. Just fly the plane.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Same as a four way stop in cars, approaching an airport the cheapest ****box flying machine/boldest pilot has the right of way.
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You've never been to a four-way stop in Asia.

Biggest vehicle wins, and almost everyone blows through the stop sign.
 
fozzie bear said:
It's like driving up to a 4-way stop sign at the same time as another person and everyone keeps waving the other on.

This has been my concern ever since I began my training. What to do when arriving the same time as another airplane. It doesn't stress me anymore because with a little experience, I have figured out how to deal with it.

On a solo XC yesterday, I was approaching an uncontrolled airport and was being more diligent than normal with radio communications starting from about 9 miles out. I was reaching pattern altitude about 4 miles out and called my position knowing I was going to cross the runway and enter downwind. By that time, I was already committed to crossing at pattern altitude and direct turn to midfield since I hadn't heard from anyone else. Next, a faster plane (bonanza v. c172) called at 9 mile inbound about 2000 feet higher than me from the opposite (pattern) side of the runway. No problem, let's see how this plays out. I called at 2 miles to mid field and they responded they were on an extended base, so I did a quick 360, saw them on final as I was about to cross mid field, entered the pattern, landed, and didn't think much of it. I'm not upset about anything, just thinking that I was lower and closer to the pattern, and announced my position first. I can personally make arguments for both sides.

How does everyone else deal with the situation of arriving at the same time?

By the way, the purpose of that trip was to take my knowledge exams (nothing like waiting until the last minute). 95. Now just about ready for the check ride in the next month or so hopefully. Sorry, but no one else in my real life really cares, had to tell someone.
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Sounds like it all worked out. I'd only comment,

1. Why cross AT pattern altitude? I'd cross at 1,500 and the descend to pattern altitude outside the pattern and re-enter.

2. Did you really report 2 miles FROM midfield? Seems to me a better strategy would be to report where you ARE and not where you're NOT. You can run yourself out of gas listing all the places you not at. :wink2:

Happy flyin
 
Pattern altitude may be 1500 if there are jets at the airport.

500 above the highest pattern altitude, whatever that is. Teardrop into the 45 and descend ON the 45, rather than turn downwind at midfield. If you need to descend more than 500 feet, you can start your descent before reaching the 45, but make sure the area is clear first.

TPA further out than a few miles invites close contact with obstructions. Some of those can be 2000 feet high and next to impossible to see (especially supporting guy wires). Even without terrain. It also invites noise complaints.
 
I have no problem crossing midfield to enter the downwind but doing it 500' over seems a bad idea. Traffic will be obscured by the nose/wings and you are descending onto the TP. Plus getting rid of that 500' is going to cause you to fly a bigger stupider pattern then necessary.
 
I might rethink being at pattern altitude 4 miles out. Especially overflying the field (If I understand you correctly).

If he is entering on base, He will likely descend into that base and be at pattern altitude at the beginning of base leg.

If you are above pattern alt and overflying, you are lucky because you have 2 choices based on him. Turn on downwind or teardrop based on where he is at.

But if you are flying at pattern alt overflying the field to downwind and he is entering a 45 degree downwind. You are asking for trouble.
 
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ClimbnSink said:
I have no problem crossing midfield to enter the downwind but doing it 500' over seems a bad idea. Traffic will be obscured by the nose/wings and you are descending onto the TP. Plus getting rid of that 500' is going to cause you to fly a bigger stupider pattern then necessary.
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No. In a low wing, you can see the entire teardrop throughout the turn. In a high wing, you can clear the area easily before the turn and can see the 45 further out than you through most of the turn (that's the wing up side), and it's not much more than standard pattern turns. You can do it in two turns if you prefer. You are at pattern altitude before attempting to merge with downwind traffic.

I don't know about you, but I can descend 500 feet in barely over a mile, and that's not anywhere near an excessive 45.
 
Captain said:
Sounds like it all worked out. I'd only comment,

1. Why cross AT pattern altitude? I'd cross at 1,500 and the descend to pattern altitude outside the pattern and re-enter.
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I usually cross 500-1000 feet over the pattern, then a mile or so past the pattern start a right hand descending teardrop turn to put myself into the 45 entry for left traffic (assuming left traffic airport of course!).

However, I have a lot of friends that just cut across midfield a little above pattern and descent into the pattern as they turn into the downwind, making radio calls. In fact, I *think* I once read Ron Levi advocating a cross over at pattern altitude, the reasoning being that that is the height people are looking for other traffic, and if you and other folks are even halfway looking, they will see each other quickest at that altitude.

I still think my way is safer (though slower to land), but I can see both sides in the debate.
 
PPC1052 said:
Right of way isn't the issue when you can't see. My plane doesn't have a window in the floor.
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The planes I used to instruct in at a busy uncontrolled airport didn't either--they were Cherokees. If you can enter on a crosswind leg in a practical way, then it isn't much extra effort to enter on an upwind leg which puts you in a great spot for identifying departing traffic. I've found the most vocal opponents to this simply never tried it. After they have, they like it a lot. :wink2:

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
The planes I used to instruct in at a busy uncontrolled airport didn't either--they were Cherokees. If you can enter on a crosswind leg in a practical way, then it isn't much extra effort to enter on an upwind leg which puts you in a great spot for identifying departing traffic. I've found the most vocal opponents to this simply never tried it. After they have, they like it a lot. :wink2:

dtuuri
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Never tried it. Maybe I would.
 
I did have an incident one time when I was flying with a CFI in the right seat approaching an uncontrolled airport when another plane was approaching at the same time. The other pilot was nervous about it, and asked us to make a right traffic pattern entry as he entered left downwind. I thought it was kind of hinky, but the CFI said it was ok, and so we did. It worked out okay, and we could see each other, and avoid-- he turned final first, and we followed in behind a safe distance afterwards. But I would not do that again. For one, while pattern entry is not directed by regulation, the direction of the traffic pattern is. In retrospect, I wish I had assumed control of the situation, and just said, "unable," and not defered to the CFI. Live and learn.
 
As you can see, lots of opinions here. I will just add that you saw the situation, came up with a plan, and it worked out fine. I think you did well. Lots of ideas to consider here, though.
 
fozzie bear said:
I was reaching pattern How does everyone else deal with the situation of arriving at the same time?
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I listen ahead of time and adjust speed accordingly. If in the pattern, a power off 180 will get you down and off the runway before the long straight in can get down ... unless it's something extremely fast. If unsure, direct crosswind or upwind entry or last option 360 outside the pattern and let them in ...
 
In a fixed wing, I usually plan for a standard 45 degree entry. If the radio is quiet, and the pattern is clear, and I'm in a rush, straight in. Midfield crosswinds I believe are the result of poor planning. An extra couple of minutes and a standard 45 can be executed (FAA recommended and some airports REQUEST).
Just a note though, helicopters try to avoid the flow of fixed wing so they will be opposite and often times LOWER than you. They usually avoid landing on the runway but not always. I did my solo in Norwood (OWD) to the active. And in Lawrence (LWM), helos are usually on the active. Most of my other flights at Norwood have either been position departure or intersection. I rarely see any helos on the active.
 
Now you know why joining the pattern from the inside isn't such a good idea. Next time follow the advice above and think of the rectangular pattern as a traffic circle you only join from the outside.
 
You could fly under the pattern and climb up to pattern altitude.
 
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I personally would have done exactly what you did with the exception of the 360 degree turn. The traffic would have been about your 10 to 11 o-clock high moving to 9 o-clock. I might not have turned downwind until he was in sight or communicating that he had passed me. once in site I would have just extended my downwind turn and base turn as necessary to fit give me enough spacing behind him to land. Of course I would have been communicating my position and intentions.

The nice thing about the midfield entry is that all the traffic on the traffic pattern side should easily be within sight. It is efficient and gets you in and out of the traffic pattern area in a minimum of time.


The problem with flying 500 feet over and descending is you might descending right into that traffic flying a 2 mile wide downwind and they will be below you making them often blend into the ground and hard to see. It is a lot of maneuvering in a high traffic area.

Brian
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
You could fly under the pattern and climb up to pattern altitude.
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Really bad logic. Climbing you will be slow potentially climbing into faster traffic's blind spot under his nose while he's in your blind spot high and behind you. This is just dumb. If you are low, stay low and fly a tight pattern. When I seek safety, I seek it on the deck.
 
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