Approach to Tower Handoff

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
When flying in Class C for landing, approaching the airport from the northeast, 10 miles out...

Approach control says something like "continue west, plan right traffic for 27R", so a turn due west is made.

Two minutes later and 6 miles out (on a 45° from the airport), they hand off to the tower and upon first contact, tower says, "clear to land 27R".

Would you interpret the next step as:

1) turn direct to a point about 1-2 miles out and on the extended centerline of 27R, and when you get there, make a 45° right turn to line up and land.

or

2) continue west until you are one mile east and 4 miles north of the field and turn due south to enter on a right base.

#1 would be the most expeditious route but #2 is what approach said to "plan for"
 
#1.

Really, at that point it is up to you, but the most expeditious route is the best IMHO, based on your experience and the aircraft you are flying. Remain within your capabilities. ;)
 
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Once I am cleared to land, in your scenario, I am headed for 27R as directly as possible. I would expect ATC to expect me to land as expeditiously as possible.
 
In the scenario outlined #1 was the chosen action yet it seemed to cause confusion with ATC who seemed to expect #2.
 
Geico266 said:
#1.

Really, at that point it is up to you, but the most expeditious route is the best IMHO, based on your experience and the aircraft you are flying. Remain within your capabilities. ;)
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+1...

get it on the ground ASAP...
 
DesertNomad said:
In the scenario outlined #1 was the chosen action yet it seemed to cause confusion with ATC who seemed to expect #2.
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What did the Tower say about your choice of #1?
 
About half way to the runway from where clearance to land was given (so maybe 3-4 miles out), ATC asked "were you given a right downwind entry?"

Reply to ATC: "Tower cleared us for 27R"

ATC: "Yeah, hmmm... ok, continue the approach".
 
DesertNomad said:
About half way to the runway from where clearance to land was given (so maybe 3-4 miles out), ATC asked "were you given a right downwind entry?"

Reply to ATC: "Tower cleared us for 27R"

ATC: "Yeah, hmmm... ok, continue the approach".
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Interesting that you were listening to anyone but the tower at that point. Once I'm told to contact the tower approach no longer exists to me. In any case, you did what I would have done. Once cleared to land, head for the runway via the most direct route that makes sense.
 
Option number 3... if you are uncertain as to what the tower wants you to do, ask them for clarification. I would rather do that then try to guess what their intentions were, and have them guess what yours are.
 
douglas393 said:
Option number 3... if you are uncertain as to what the tower wants you to do, ask them for clarification. I would rather do that then try to guess what their intentions were, and have them guess what yours are.
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:yeahthat:

No reason to make it harder on yourself. I was on flight following and had one sector said "report airport in sight on xxx.xx." I didn't know if he meant I should switch now or later, so I just monitored both, but I definitely should have asked. A simple question can avoid much confusion :).
 
Ghery said:
Interesting that you were listening to anyone but the tower at that point. Once I'm told to contact the tower approach no longer exists to me. In any case, you did what I would have done. Once cleared to land, head for the runway via the most direct route that makes sense.
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The conversation was with Tower... the "Tower cleared us for" was just an error since the conversation was with tower.
 
DesertNomad said:
The conversation was with Tower... the "Tower cleared us for" was just an error since the conversation was with tower.
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Then it sounds like he expected you to do a right downwind, and back to my option number 3. Better certain than trying to guess. There is never a reason to be shy about saying unable, repeat, or asking for a clarification.
 
How about "enter right downwind for rwy 27R" instead of using the word "plan." Not exactly positive control by the approach controller. No exact entry into the pattern was given IAW Ch 7 of the 7110.65. Still, I would have confirmed with twr direct to rwy 27R once he cleared me to land.
 
"Plan right traffic for 27" does not mean "enter right downwind". The controllers were really out of it, I think.
 
Call the tower. Ask to speak to a supervisor or the manager. Ask your question and let us know the answer.
 
N801BH said:
+1...

get it on the ground ASAP...
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I want to correct /alter my answer...;)..:redface:

For some reason my small brain assumed he was the new guy with the trick helicopter so I said make a straight line to the airport.. Now that I see he is a fixed wing guy I would say to enter the closest traffic pattern and fly a short approach.... IMHO...
 
Maybe I am confused but I do not ever remember a direct to runway pattern designation from training nor experience. I have been instructed to expect a visual to runway XX by ATC, and when contacting the tower it has always been enter either right or left with either base or downwind, or straight-in or final. Now I can assume cleared means entering a final, or straight-in, and if my position is such doing the approach makes sense then I would understand that, but if my position is more ammenable to a downwind or base entry then that would be more appropriate. It seems to me that the tower was sloppy with its language, and asking for clarification still seems to be the appropriate response. Especially in light of the conversation he had with the tower, where it seems at least to me they expected a downwind entry, and not a straight in. I must also add, that I can never remember ever being cleared for landing when 6 miles out. I get it as I am entering the pattern, when I report my position to the tower, but if there are other planes in the pattern I will be told I am number whatever, and then will get further directions, as to what to do and when. 6 miles out may be only 3 or 4 minutes until entering the pattern, but a lot of the time I hear people asking for clearance at 5 miles, or occasionally closer if they are on a flight plan, or flight following, so a lot can change before you enter that pattern.
 
douglas393 said:
Then it sounds like he expected you to do a right downwind, and back to my option number 3. Better certain than trying to guess. There is never a reason to be shy about saying unable, repeat, or asking for a clarification.
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While that's true, as the story was told, ATC never said anything about a right downwind entry. In that case, I would have no need of clarification as I'd be quite sure Tower just wanted me to get my butt on the ground.
 
Velocity173 said:
How about "enter right downwind for rwy 27R" instead of using the word "plan." Not exactly positive control by the approach controller. No exact entry into the pattern was given IAW Ch 7 of the 7110.65.
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Exactly my point. If they want me to fly the right downwind, they have to tell me to fly the right downwind. Otherwise, I'm going to take the shortest route to the tarmac.
 
The airport in question usually gives straight in landings in cases like this. Since "plan" is not an instruction, it seemed to me that direct to the runway made sense when told "clear to land"

Most others I talked to agree but I think I will file a NASA report.
 
DesertNomad said:
The airport in question usually gives straight in landings in cases like this. Since "plan" is not an instruction, it seemed to me that direct to the runway made sense when told "clear to land"

Most others I talked to agree but I think I will file a NASA report.
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That NASA ASRS report is an excellent idea -- perhaps others will learn from it.
 
Not sure I want to call the tower since they may think nothing of it. Spoke with two CFIs who both said they would have done direct to the runway after being told clear to land
 
DesertNomad said:
Not sure I want to call the tower since they may think nothing of it. Spoke with two CFIs who both said they would have done direct to the runway after being told clear to land
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get a quarter... find a payphone..... and call them...;):D
 
dmspilot said:
"Plan right traffic for 27" does not mean "enter right downwind". The controllers were really out of it, I think.
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Kind of what I was thinking. The airport I'm taking my lessons from, (KVNY), the tower are very clear about where and how they want you to enter the pattern, right down wind means abeam the tower, enter right cross wind means just that. From the OP description they would probably have given me a right cross wind.
With out being them being specific, once cleared to land I would head straight for the numbers (lined up of course :) ) . Maybe just because the airport/airspace is so busy around here is why they are so precise with what they want and expect.
 
I think the tower dropped the ball on this one. Mine always gives pattern entry instructions. But that's probably because we're very busy with three runways. Example:

Approach: "Mooney 12345, contact Centennial Tower."

Me: "Centennial Tower, Mooney 12345, 10 miles north, inbound for landing with alpha."

Tower: Roger Mooney 12345. Make left traffic 35L, report midfield downwind."

etc.
 
Why would ATC put you into an approach offset from the runway? ATC when VFR will either ask or assume from your track what you are doing - and they'll know what runway your destination is using if its towered - then they'll tell you to 'expect a visual to Runway XX' - at that point you know what to plan for but are generally expected to be either on your flight plan route, assigned heading or flying direct to the field.

When you shopped to tower, they'll tell you want they want - as in: "90P, call a 2 mile left base to 26L." That tells you that from where you are you need navigate yourself to a 2 mile left base to the correct runway.

So #1 is correct unless they give you some other instruction . . . . though in a single or light twin I'd be inside 2 miles . . .
 
At the airport in question it is not uncommon to get clearance to land when 8 miles out... even when plodding along in a 172.
 
I would concur with sloppy ATC. I believe the correct phraseology is "enter right downwind, cleared visual approach 27R. Contact tower xxx." That's what I always hear and seems to be the correct phraseology.
 
Well now we're going into two different things. I believe the OP was VFR correct?? If he was, he isn't going to be told to expect a visual or be cleared for a visual approach. If he was IFR then he would have gotten his clearance for the visual from approach and then shipped to tower for his landing clearance.
 
This was VFR. Approach said to "plan for right traffic", Tower said only "clear to land". My CFI said he'd have flown direct to the runway too.
 
Which airport was this? I overlap with your range somewhat and knowing about sloppy ATC procedures can be helpful.
 
DesertNomad said:
When flying in Class C for landing, approaching the airport from the northeast, 10 miles out...

Approach control says something like "continue west, plan right traffic for 27R", so a turn due west is made.

Two minutes later and 6 miles out (on a 45° from the airport), they hand off to the tower and upon first contact, tower says, "clear to land 27R".

Would you interpret the next step as:

1) turn direct to a point about 1-2 miles out and on the extended centerline of 27R, and when you get there, make a 45° right turn to line up and land.

or

2) continue west until you are one mile east and 4 miles north of the field and turn due south to enter on a right base.

#1 would be the most expeditious route but #2 is what approach said to "plan for"
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I'd turn direct to a point about 1/4 to 1/2 mile out and on the extended centerline of 27R, and when I got there make a right turn to line up and land.
 
DesertNomad said:
About half way to the runway from where clearance to land was given (so maybe 3-4 miles out), ATC asked "were you given a right downwind entry?"

Reply to ATC: "Tower cleared us for 27R"

ATC: "Yeah, hmmm... ok, continue the approach".
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Tower was asking what the approach controller had told you to do. Assuming he hadn't told you to enter right downwind, "Negative" would have been the appropriate response.
 
roncachamp said:
Tower was asking what the approach controller had told you to do. Assuming he hadn't told you to enter right downwind, "Negative" would have been the appropriate response.
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Yes. In hindsight, "Negative. We were told to plan right traffic, but were not given any specific entry" would have been better.
 
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