approach question

[grattonja]

I just updated my plates with the 5/12 set that came in. I always specifically review the approaches that I use the most, particular the ones at home (LNS) for changes. Imagine my surprise to see that the ILS8 at LNS has been replaced with a LOC8. No glide slope, no 200 foot minimums, and entirely different waypoints from before! The minimums are the same as the old Loc only minimums and now it appears the best minimums into LNS, unless you have VNAV guidance for the GPS 8, are the minimums for the VOR-DME8.

What happened? Do any of you TERPS or FAA folk have any inside information? I know that the ILS has not been particularly stable the last couple of months, and has been down a fair amount. Also, 8-26 at LNS is getting extended, on the 26 end. But, also, we just recently got air carrier service back and I would think the ILS would be an important part of keeping that service happy.

A couple of weird things are there on the plate. First, they literally changed the names of the waypoints coming in. The FAF, which was polcu, is now something completely different. Also, under the localizer identifier box, it now says something like, "offset 2.8 degrees".

What happened? Is this temporary while they replace failing equipment? If so, why a whole new plate then? Why not just leave the plate as is and issue a notam.

Jim G

 

[AdamZ]

Jim: Look in your mailing from Jepp. I just looked at a friends Jepp View which he got last week and It still has an ILS 8 with the same FAF and IAF. If you don't have it perhaps Jepp just forgot to send it to you. See you Saturday.

 

[BruceAir]

Re: approach question ILS 08 @KLNS

I was able to find the chart for the ILS 08 approach at KLNS by checking AirNav. It should also be availble via the FAA NACO Web site (which seems recalcitrant this morning).

You might also check the FDC* NOTAMS for KLNS to confirm whether there's something unusual going on with the approaches. The current listing on the FAA Web NOTAM site for KLNS is:

LANCASTER

Lancaster

FDC 4/5246 LNS FI/T LANCASTER, LANCASTER, PA. ILS OR LOC RWY 8 AMDT 15...S-LOC 8: VISIBILITY CAT C 1.

FDC 4/5245 LNS FI/T LANCASTER. LANCASTER, PA. VOR/DME OR GPS RWY 31 AMDT 3A...VOR/DME PORTION RADAR REQUIRE. GPS PORTION NA. S-31: MDA 840/HAT 437 ALL CATS. VIS CAT C 1 1/4, CAT D 1 1/2. CIRCLING: MDA 1080/HAA 677CAT C. VIS CAT D 2 1/4. CAT D ALTERNATE MINIMUMS 800-2 1/4. MSA FROM LRP VORTAC 040-240 2600.


*FDC NOTAMs reflect changes to Standard Instrument Approach Procedures (SIAPs), flight restrictions, and aeronautical chart revisions.

 

[BruceAir]

Re: approach question-KLNS

Postscript:

I finally got to the NACO site and searched for procedures for KLNS.

The results, titled:
Digital Terminal Procedures Version: 0505
Effective 0901Z Thursday, May 12, 2005 to 0901Z Thursday, June 09, 2005

notes:

LANCASTER, PA LANCASTER, PA KLNS NE-4 D IAP ILS OR LOC RWY 08 No longer available
So, you should check with Williamsport FSS, the airport management, and/or the Harrisburg FSDO for more information about what's going on.

 

[grattonja]

Jim: Look in your mailing from Jepp. I just looked at a friends Jepp View which he got last week and It still has an ILS 8 with the same FAF and IAF. If you don't have it perhaps Jepp just forgot to send it to you. See you Saturday.

The NACOs for the change on 5/12 have only a LOC8 with newly renamed waypoints. Maybe Jepp knows something NACO doesn't.

Then again, see Bruce's post.

Looking forward to Saturday too. Weather looking maybe a bit iffy though. Will have to see. I haven't had an excuse to exercise my IR in a while

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

Re: approach question-KLNS

Postscript:

I finally got to the NACO site and searched for procedures for KLNS.

The results, titled:
Digital Terminal Procedures Version: 0505
Effective 0901Z Thursday, May 12, 2005 to 0901Z Thursday, June 09, 2005

notes:

LANCASTER, PA LANCASTER, PA KLNS NE-4 D IAP ILS OR LOC RWY 08 No longer available
So, you should check with Williamsport FSS, the airport management, and/or the Harrisburg FSDO for more information about what's going on.

When I go to the NACO site myself, the proc is there for the plates that depart on 5/12 and, as you say, procedure unavailable for the 5/12 + procedures.

Jim G

 

[poadeleted20]

What the Jepp stuff is trying to tell you is that the ILS/LOC approach on Rwy 8 is going away, and a completely new LOC approach slightly angled to the runway will replace it. That's reinforced by the NACO note Bruce located. In order to avoid anyone being confused, they have to use all new names for all the points on the approach so they don't vector someone to the FAF for the new LOC and have him go to the one for the old ILS.

As for the why's and wherefore's, I called the LNS airport manager's office, and they said the manager was the only one with the answer, and he's in a Board meeting, but will call back. However, keep in mind that the limit on how far the approach can be angled off runway centerline is larger for a nonprecision LOC approach than for a precision ILS approach -- the TERPsichorians can probably chip in with the details. My suspicion is that there is something out there that interferes (or will soon interfere) with the existing centerline-aligned ILS course but a 2.8-degree offset will get past the problem.

The reason you don't see the new approach yet on the NACO and AOPA web sites is that the web sites won't show it until it becomes effective -- that prevents folks from inadvertently using approaches which haven't been commissioned yet. The change should take place at 0901Z on May 12, after which the old ILS/LOC chart will no longer be available on those sites and the new LOC-only chart will.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

What the Jepp stuff is trying to tell you is that the ILS/LOC approach on Rwy 8 is going away, and a completely new LOC approach slightly angled to the runway will replace it. That's reinforced by the NACO note Bruce located. In order to avoid anyone being confused, they have to use all new names for all the points on the approach so they don't vector someone to the FAF for the new LOC and have him go to the one for the old ILS.

As for the why's and wherefore's, I called the LNS airport manager's office, and they said the manager was the only one with the answer, and he's in a Board meeting, but will call back.

You don't need the airport manager if you live here (or if you understand where the antennas are located on a full ILS and you read a few of the previous comments about what LNS airport is building). As someone else noted, the airport is lengthening 8-26 from the 26 end. Where is the LOC antenna located on an ILS runway? Off the departure end. If you lengthen the RWY departure end, what will you need to move (or bulldoze)? The localizer antenna. If the move is only temporary, and the approach end is not affected, would you re-align the GS transmitter to the new (offset for construction) LOC course, or would you wait until relocation of the LOC antenna at the new departure runway end is complete? Probably wait.

 

[spiderweb]

Whats news at LNS? How much are they lengthening the runway? Is USAirways express coming back, or are they anticipating SWA or something?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Whats news at LNS? How much are they lengthening the runway? Is USAirways express coming back, or are they anticipating SWA or something?

USAirways or some turbo prop commuter has been back for some time. LNS is getting more charter jet traffic and the area is growing. They want more jets, including airline jets. Hence they are lengthening the runway. Given all that, I seriously doubt the ILS-8 outage is anything more than a temporary construction item as I noted in my previous post.

BTW, while 8-26 is under construction they often are forced to use 13-31. My buddy who flies a Lear 60 out of LNS claims 13-31 is a good pucker factor in that jet.

 

[bbchien]

BTW, while 8-26 is under construction they often are forced to use 13-31. My buddy who flies a Lear 60 out of LNS claims 13-31 is a good pucker factor in that jet.

I agree that this is likely just a phase of expansion. At Peoria, we lengthened 13/31. It's been a standing joke that the city fathers can't seem to get an ILS together (even though we have three).... sigh.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

the TERPsichorians can probably chip in with the details. My suspicion is that there is something out there that interferes (or will soon interfere) with the existing centerline-aligned ILS course but a 2.8-degree offset will get past the problem.

Okay, I passed on this one the first time through, but then my sense of humour overwhelmed decorum... Are bulldozers even listed as an item of consideration in the TERPS manual? I thought only permanent structures/items were considered.

 

[spiderweb]

All very interesting, and good to know, too!

USAirways or some turbo prop commuter has been back for some time. LNS is getting more charter jet traffic and the area is growing. They want more jets, including airline jets. Hence they are lengthening the runway. Given all that, I seriously doubt the ILS-8 outage is anything more than a temporary construction item as I noted in my previous post.

BTW, while 8-26 is under construction they often are forced to use 13-31. My buddy who flies a Lear 60 out of LNS claims 13-31 is a good pucker factor in that jet.

 

[grattonja]

You don't need the airport manager if you live here (or if you understand where the antennas are located on a full ILS and you read a few of the previous comments about what LNS airport is building). As someone else noted, the airport is lengthening 8-26 from the 26 end. Where is the LOC antenna located on an ILS runway? Off the departure end. If you lengthen the RWY departure end, what will you need to move (or bulldoze)? The localizer antenna. If the move is only temporary, and the approach end is not affected, would you re-align the GS transmitter to the new (offset for construction) LOC course, or would you wait until relocation of the LOC antenna at the new departure runway end is complete? Probably wait.

Doh! So much for remembering my IR training, and the diagram of where the transmitters are located. Remedial training for Jim!

Thanks Ed. That certainly explains it. It will likely be temporary. I am surprised then that they issued a new plate instead of just a notam. I suppose, if it will last more than one cycle of plates, it makes sense though.

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

All very interesting, and good to know, too!

I think the carrier is Mesa air or some such. Right now, service is only to Pittsburg. We basically stole the carrier from RDG, which is too bad for RDG, as the restaurant is now closed there and they are a ghost of their former selves. Good for LNS but bad for RDG.

8-26 will be even nicer when it is done, although, as you know, 8 is ample for instrument practice in the birds we fly presently.

Jim G