AOPA's non-reaction to "Secret No Fly Zone"

N801BH said:
Define " helped the pilot out "............
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Glad to help:

The attorney Frank Reid had found represented Fleming for the breach of peace charge, but Fleming sought additional assistance from an attorney familiar with aviation through AOPA’s Legal Services Plan/Pilot Protection Services. John Hodge, an attorney and 17,000-hour pilot who has flown gliders, provided aviation-related information under the plan’s 20 hours allotted for local law enforcement issues.
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Given the ever increasing aggressiveness of our 'public servants' and the skyrocketing cost of legal entanglements, I think some of the pilots dropping AOPA Legal because the organization doesn't run exactly they way they'd like are going to be sorry someday.

If you drop AOPA over this incident, please don't come back crying that the AOPA didn't help you when you get that 'call the tower' (no 'please') transmission one day.
 
roncachamp said:
Something like that was attempted shortly after 9/11. I forget the details, but restrictions were placed on any flight within a specific distance and altitude above a nuke. This raised the question, "Where are the nukes?" The answer, "For security reasons we can't tell you." It was pointed out that knowing where they are was required information if they were to be avoided, and the restriction soon vanished.
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The hilarious part is they actually DID publish a NOTAM with the coordinates of all the nuke plants (I remember, I saw it, and was like, WTF?). It took a couple weeks, IIRC, for them to realize what an incredibly stupid idea that was.

Jeff
 
Aopa is a protection racket now? Tell them to get back in the wine business Ill hire my own goons.
 
AdamZ said:
Wait, what case should AOPA take pro bono? The criminal defense case? the Federal 1983 case? Look I think most any person pilot or not with any sense of justice is outraged by the actions of the Darlington County Sheriff but I think you need to take a step back for a second and evaluate the situation a bit closer.

1) The glider pilot resolved the criminal matter and of his own accord agreed not to sue the Sheriff or the county. That was his decision with the advice of counsel. Who the hell is anyone at AOPA to jump in and direct him to do otherwise?

2)Everyone here can beat their chests and say ah if that were me I'd never settle. "Make them try me for breaching the peace I'm gonna sue their ass off" The pilot apparently wanted this over with. My understanding is that he is not a US Citizen. Perhaps he was concerned regarding the immigration ramifications of a potential conviction. Has anyone thought of that? Also who is to say that a Darlington County Judge or Jury would not be made up of the same ingorant people from the sheriff's dept that demanded he land or they will shoot him down. Because lord knows there have never been any Narrow minded judges or half brained jurors that sit in judgement of others right?:skeptical: Did you read some of the initial comments from the Darlington County Citizenery supporting the sheriff? Like the one that said " Any idiot knows that a Nuclear power plant is a No Fly Zone"

3) AOPA has no individual standing in this matter but I suspect that had the glider pilot decided to fight AOPA would have at the very least filed an Amicus Brief in his support. I'd bet donations to his legal defense fund would have been substantial. AOPA bought it to the attention of all pilots and not in an insignficant manner. For heaven's sake as a result of AOPA publishing it the DCSO shut down their facebook page!

4) My guess is AOPA legal staff knows the way to resolve this matter is to quietly educate the DCSO. Face it the DCSO has publicly dug its heels in and they are never going to admit fault so what would you rather have them admit fault or just not do it again?
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+5.......................
 
AdamZ said:
Wait, what case should AOPA take pro bono? The criminal defense case? the Federal 1983 case? Look I think most any person pilot or not with any sense of justice is outraged by the actions of the Darlington County Sheriff but I think you need to take a step back for a second and evaluate the situation a bit closer.

1) The glider pilot resolved the criminal matter and of his own accord agreed not to sue the Sheriff or the county. That was his decision with the advice of counsel. Who the hell is anyone at AOPA to jump in and direct him to do otherwise?
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First, I believe I said "This is such an egregious violation of the pilots civil rights that I EXPECT AOPA to fully support the pilot." I did NOT suggest that AOPA jump in and direct him what to do.

Second, while he "resolved the criminal matter of his own accord and agreed not to sue", that was done only under conditions that any reasonable person would call duress. He had engaged a lawyer on his own, he had access his legal protection plan, a gun was held to his head and he agreed to move on. I CERTAINLY don't blame him. His is a single person standing against the law - as wrong as it is. In the same situation, I would probably have done the same thing. Then again, if AOPA had flown down a lawyer or two, told me that it wouldn't be "you against the man" and that they believed this was a wrong that must be righted for the protection of ALL pilots, I would have stood my ground. I don't know Mr. Fleming, so maybe he would handle it differently than I, but I do know that AOPA didn't offer to step to the plate for/with him.

Finally, to answer your question directly, I think AOPA is the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association which is comprised of over 400,000 members and whose mission is to "preserve the freedom to fly by advocating on behalf of our members". I don't believe my outrage is "odd". I think that I support an organization which has as its primary mission to advocate on behalf of our members. There but by the grace of god was Mr. Fleming instead of me. I EXPECT my advocacy group to get involved and support Mr. Fleming in any way he would like.

AdamZ said:
2)Everyone here can beat their chests and say ah if that were me I'd never settle. "Make them try me for breaching the peace I'm gonna sue their ass off" The pilot apparently wanted this over with. My understanding is that he is not a US Citizen. Perhaps he was concerned regarding the immigration ramifications of a potential conviction. Has anyone thought of that? Also who is to say that a Darlington County Judge or Jury would not be made up of the same ingorant people from the sheriff's dept that demanded he land or they will shoot him down. Because lord knows there have never been any Narrow minded judges or half brained jurors that sit in judgement of others right?:skeptical: Did you read some of the initial comments from the Darlington County Citizenery supporting the sheriff? Like the one that said " Any idiot knows that a Nuclear power plant is a No Fly Zone"
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You couldn't make my case any better. Without a serious team behind him, Mr. Fleming made the only decision most people would make in the same situation. He backed down and let the law trample him. I don't blame him for ALL the reasons you just posted and if I were in his same situation, I would probably be upset but do the same thing. For ALL the reasons you just listed. On the other hand, if AOPA offered to step to the plate with/for him with all the resources they could muster, he might very well choose a different path. Maybe he wouldn't, but I'm DISGUSTED with AOPA that they didn't give him that opportunity. This case is the poster child for all that is wrong in America. He follows the laws to the LETTER and is jailed ... then our advocacy group does nothing.

AdamZ said:
3) AOPA has no individual standing in this matter but I suspect that had the glider pilot decided to fight AOPA would have at the very least filed an Amicus Brief in his support. I'd bet donations to his legal defense fund would have been substantial. AOPA bought it to the attention of all pilots and not in an insignficant manner. For heaven's sake as a result of AOPA publishing it the DCSO shut down their facebook page!
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For heaven's sake, the DCSO shut down their facebook page, I feel so much safer now! And your right, there is a chance that people would step up to protect him, but there is also a chance that all he'd do is anger "the man". Without the big dog on your side, which path would you take - guaranteed way out, or **** off the same morons who just arrested you and hope for some help from AOPA?

AdamZ said:
4) My guess is AOPA legal staff knows the way to resolve this matter is to quietly educate the DCSO. Face it the DCSO has publicly dug its heels in and they are never going to admit fault so what would you rather have them admit fault or just not do it again?
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I guess I'd like to see a serious civil suit. I'd like to see this go as far as possible until Mr. Fleming wins. I'd like the county to be sued for every penny they have. THEN, I'd like to see AOPA start an education campaign using Darlington county as a case study ... "Sherriff Fife, you really need to be careful. The Darlington County Sherriff's office made this mistake and was sued for $X million."

We can all talk about trivial lawsuits, but this is a case where an innocent man was arrested and imprisoned simply out of ignorance. His rights were trampled. We get the government we deserve and all they will listen to is money. Make them pay dearly for a mistake and they are MUCH more likely to listen to advice.

I don't think the morons in Darlington County will make the same mistake. It will be morons in another county that make the mistake. I since AOPA did NOTHING to make this a poster-child case, I have to simply hope that next time it isn't me. DCSO MUST be punished severly and be used as an example for the other umpteen counties in the US to learn from.
 
JimNtexas said:
I find your outrage kind of odd. Do you really think for $50 that the AOPA should come charging out of Fredrick and jump uninvited right into the middle of any member's altercation with the cops? And by what system of intelligence gathering could the AOPA even have found out about the incident before the pilot was out of jail and the charges dropped?

The AOPA did publicize this incident once they found about it, and the AOPA legal plan helped the pilot out.

Let's punish one of the two organizations that actively supports General Aviation because they didn't hurl a thunderbolt at the local Barney Fifes.

What could go wrong?
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I don't expect $50 to do much, but I expect 400,000 members at $50/head to be enough for AOPA to actively address major wrongs committed upon its members.

I don't expect an intelligence organization. I do expect the article to say something like, "Since being made aware of this case, AOPA has contacted Mr. Fleming and offered him the full support and backing of the AOPA. We see this as a significant over reach by law enforcement and will continue to work with and support Mr. Fleming as he evaluates his options. We want all members to know that they will not stand alone when their rights are violated. While we can't help every member, this case clearly stands as an example that can not and should not be ignored."

AOPA says something like that and I'm happy as a clam.

In the end, I don't feel like I'm punishing an organization. I feel like I'm choosing to no longer send money to an organization that does not meet its own mission statement to "preserve the freedom to fly by advocating on behalf of our members".
 
iflyforfun said:
I guess I'd like to see a serious civil suit. I'd like to see this go as far as possible until Mr. Fleming wins. I'd like the county to be sued for every penny they have. THEN, I'd like to see AOPA start an education campaign using Darlington county as a case study ... "Sherriff Fife, you really need to be careful. The Darlington County Sherriff's office made this mistake and was sued for $X million."
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They have no standing to sue. The aggrieved party who does opted to waive his right to sue to get this behind him.

You don't like the AOPA. That's fine. Most of us appreciate what they do and what we get for $45 a year. Personally, I'm thrilled they have a jet and whatever else they need/want to keep going. I get my money's worth. Why do I care how they spend theirs?
 
iflyforfun said:
In the end, I don't feel like I'm punishing an organization. I feel like I'm choosing to no longer send money to an organization that does not meet its own mission statement to "preserve the freedom to fly by advocating on behalf of our members".
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What other organization contacted DHS and other agencies to rattle their cages on this? As far as I can tell AOPA was the only one. :dunno:
 
LDJones said:
They have no standing to sue. The aggrieved party who does opted to waive his right to sue to get this behind him.

You don't like the AOPA. That's fine. Most of us appreciate what they do and what we get for $45 a year. Personally, I'm thrilled they have a jet and whatever else they need/want to keep going. I get my money's worth. Why do I care how they spend theirs?
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I have NEVER said they have any standing to sue. I've said they should stand by Mr. Fleming. I also believe he made the only decision that made sense sitting in a jail ... get me out. Now it is time for AOPA to support him. Maybe he wants to take a second crack at Barney now that he has some support. Maybe he doesn't. That is up to him. What is up to me is to stop supporting an organization that doesn't "preserve the freedom to fly by advocating on behalf of our members."

You can keep paying for their jet, seems to make you happy ... to each his own. I'm just sharing my disappointment with the organization in the hopes that by griping here, maybe AOPA will react. I know they won't when I contact them ... well, maybe I'll find out in a few weeks when they get back to me.
 
LDJones said:
What other organization contacted DHS and other agencies to rattle their cages on this? As far as I can tell AOPA was the only one. :dunno:
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Yup, I feel protected. First, the DCSO shut down their Facebook page. Next, AOPA called DHS. I'm much more comfortable that my rights won't be assulted by those two actions.
 
iflyforfun said:
I have NEVER said they have any standing to sue. I've said they should stand by Mr. Fleming. I also believe he made the only decision that made sense sitting in a jail ... get me out. Now it is time for AOPA to support him. Maybe he wants to take a second crack at Barney now that he has some support. Maybe he doesn't. That is up to him. What is up to me is to stop supporting an organization that doesn't "preserve the freedom to fly by advocating on behalf of our members."

You can keep paying for their jet, seems to make you happy ... to each his own. I'm just sharing my disappointment with the organization in the hopes that by griping here, maybe AOPA will react. I know they won't when I contact them ... well, maybe I'll find out in a few weeks when they get back to me.
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I still can't for the life of me figure what the heck you expect them to do? The man agreed to his deal....you just don't say, "Gee....I've changed my mind." It's done. It's over. Get over it! I find AOPA has done exactly what is appropriate in this case. If you want to make some bigger point, go loiter over a nuclear plant for a few hours and then take it all the way to the Supreme Court if you wish. Sniveling here about some perceived lack of machismo on AOPA's part is pretty pointless.
 
iflyforfun said:
I have NEVER said they have any standing to sue. I've said they should stand by Mr. Fleming.
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And you know they didn't how?

None of us know what has transpired between AOPA and Mr. Fleming.

And I am tired of people criticizing AOPA for having a fleet that allows an aircraft appropriate to the mission. If our organization can't use business aircraft for business, what is its purpose? Should they ride the train? Our AOPA reps aren't GM and Chrysler, going to Congress with hat in hand looking for a handout. They are going around the country advocating for AVIATION. Good grief.
 
LDJones said:
I still can't for the life of me figure what the heck you expect them to do? The man agreed to his deal....you just don't say, "Gee....I've changed my mind." It's done. It's over. Get over it!
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Well, since you started with the "sniveling" insults, I'll play that game. I'm complaining, but you're not too terribly bright. It is only over if Mr. Fleming wants it to be over. A good lawyer could make the DCSO pretty miserable over this. It would not be a terribly difficult case to make that he agreed to not sue the DCSO under duress. That said, unless Mr. Fleming is independently wealthy, such a fight is fraught with personal risk. The math changes if you have AOPA behind you.

LDJones said:
I find AOPA has done exactly what is appropriate in this case. If you want to make some bigger point, go loiter over a nuclear plant for a few hours and then take it all the way to the Supreme Court if you wish. Sniveling here about some perceived lack of machismo on AOPA's part is pretty pointless.
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Since you can't for the life of you life of you figure out what I'm saying, you clearly have a limited ability to read ... I'll try typing slowly. I said, in post 9
"AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."

So, now typing REALLY slowly, I expect AOPA to contact Mr. Fleming, tell him the obvious ... that what happened to him is an affront to ALL pilots. I expect AOPA to ask Mr. Fleming what legal support he would like the AOPA to provide. Is he happy with the settlement made under duress? Would he like to sit down with a few top lawyers to discuss his options after being coerced to sign away his rights?

Want to keep it civil and tell me you don't agree with me, I'm good. Want to get ugly and tell me I'm sniveling and I'll point out that you aren't bright enough to read a simple sentence. "AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."

You seem like a nice guy. I love the picture of you and your kid in the cockpit. I think we would probably enjoy debating this over a beer at Oshkosh. That said, you want to swap insults, I'm game.
 
iflyforfun said:
"AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."

So, now typing REALLY slowly, I expect AOPA to contact Mr. Fleming, tell him the obvious ... that what happened to him is an affront to ALL pilots. I expect AOPA to ask Mr. Fleming what legal support he would like the AOPA to provide. Is he happy with the settlement made under duress? Would he like to sit down with a few top lawyers to discuss his options after being coerced to sign away his rights?
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And you know that has not happened because....
 
Mason said:
And you know that has not happened because....
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Ehh, not a bad point. They certainly said nothing of the sort in the article they posted only 5 days ago. When I wrote them to convey my deep concern, their response was they'd respond in a few week.

Sooo, I don't know, but they've said nothing of the sort and they've not responded to my e-mail request.
 
iflyforfun said:
"AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."
....
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Did you not see post #44 which documents that the AOPA Legal Plan paid for a highly experienced aviation attorney to assist Mr Fleming in this case?

How do you know what 'advice' Mr Fleming received? That's between him and his attorneys. It's none of your business, or mine.
 
@Iflyforfun, Look I share your outrage, I really do I mean not since Da Mayor bulldozed Meigs have I seen such contempt and disregard for the law, aviation and civil rights.

I think however that your assuming a few things including that AOPA was not in communication with the glder pilot and that he wasn't advised of his options by his counsel including the option to go public and enlist the support of others. That very well could have happened. Perhaps it didn't but I have not seen information that it has.

You have suggested that AOPA should have been jetting down there with a legal team to advise him of his options. Perhaps AOPA offered to do that and the pilot said thanks but I've got this covered. It really sounds like he had two qualifed attorneys one the AOPA aviation attorney from the LSP and another a local crimial defense attorney who knew the local players.

I disagree with your assesement of the ease of going back on his agreement with the county and filing suit but again thats his decision.

Also I get that a public shaming would be gratifying to watch but in the world of Octomom and Lance Armstrong is anyone publicly shamed anymore?

Look, at least we can agree to be outraged at the DCSO.
 
AdamZ said:
@Iflyforfun, Look I share your outrage, I really do I mean not since Da Mayor bulldozed Meigs have I seen such contempt and disregard for the law, aviation and civil rights.

I think however that your assuming a few things including that AOPA was not in communication with the glder pilot and that he wasn't advised of his options by his counsel including the option to go public and enlist the support of others. That very well could have happened. Perhaps it didn't but I have not seen information that it has.

You have suggested that AOPA should have been jetting down there with a legal team to advise him of his options...

I disagree with your assesement of the ease of going back on his agreement with the county and filing suit but again thats his decision.
...

Look, at least we can agree to be outraged at the DCSO.
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Done ... I can agree with that.
 
iflyforfun said:
Well, since you started with the "sniveling" insults, I'll play that game. I'm complaining, but you're not too terribly bright. It is only over if Mr. Fleming wants it to be over. A good lawyer could make the DCSO pretty miserable over this. It would not be a terribly difficult case to make that he agreed to not sue the DCSO under duress. That said, unless Mr. Fleming is independently wealthy, such a fight is fraught with personal risk. The math changes if you have AOPA behind you.


Since you can't for the life of you life of you figure out what I'm saying, you clearly have a limited ability to read ... I'll try typing slowly. I said, in post 9
"AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."

So, now typing REALLY slowly, I expect AOPA to contact Mr. Fleming, tell him the obvious ... that what happened to him is an affront to ALL pilots. I expect AOPA to ask Mr. Fleming what legal support he would like the AOPA to provide. Is he happy with the settlement made under duress? Would he like to sit down with a few top lawyers to discuss his options after being coerced to sign away his rights?

Want to keep it civil and tell me you don't agree with me, I'm good. Want to get ugly and tell me I'm sniveling and I'll point out that you aren't bright enough to read a simple sentence. "AOPA should take this case pro-bono. They should send an entire TEAM of AOPA attorneys down to discuss options with Mr. Fleming and encourage him, with their full backing, to take a stand against such behavior."

You seem like a nice guy. I love the picture of you and your kid in the cockpit. I think we would probably enjoy debating this over a beer at Oshkosh. That said, you want to swap insults, I'm game.
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AOPA is not a law firm. They have a legal insurance program staffed by private attorneys. The organization can't do "pro bono" work...that would be up to the individual attorneys to decide...and only if Mr. Fleming asked. Mr. Fleming took a deal with court. Are you familiar with plea deals? You don't just waltz back into court and say, "Do over!" The deal is done, the matter is settled. There's nothing more AOPA, or for that matter Mr. Fleming, can do at this point.

And I sincerely apologize if my "sniveling" comment insulted you. But I thought it was a fairly accurate description of the repeated sniping at AOPA. They have done everything I would expect them to do, and I'll stay on auto-renewal.
 
kkoran said:
What do you think AOPA should do?
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This could be a long, and detailed list. I sure as heck would send a personal rep with 'esq' behind his name for no charge for about 40 hours of services. After that, they should be harping long and hard on capitol hill about civil rights abuse. Then, they could contact the local and national news services about how this could be 'you in the minivan, headed to or from the mall, with your kids', etc.

Attack On Pilots Assets.

I'm done with them.
 
AdamZ said:
.

4) My guess is AOPA legal staff knows the way to resolve this matter is to quietly educate the DCSO. Face it the DCSO has publicly dug its heels in...
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Obviously the most useful thing to remedy THAT is juvenile harassment on their social media sites. How could they fail to see the error of their ways after that?!?

For heaven's sake as a result of AOPA publishing it the DCSO shut down their facebook page!
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Oh, is that why? :rolleyes: ;)
 
kkoran said:
What do you think AOPA should do?
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Dissolve and allow an organization that will do something to take its place?

Sorry but my most recent experience with AOPA was the smiling airport rep from AOPA painting an X on my runway.
 
Skylane81E said:
Dissolve and allow an organization that will do something to take its place?

Sorry but my most recent experience with AOPA was the smiling airport rep from AOPA painting an X on my runway.
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Wait AOPA painted the X on Blue Ash? Why would AOPA be doing that. Thats the city or who ever owned its job.
 
The AOPA rep came out to assist in closing the airport and did it with a smile on her face. So yes, AOPA did paint the X, and the AOPA endorsed plan to "save" the airport led directly to its demise.

I hold AOPA culpable in the loss of ISZ. I freely admit that this event is why I will not support AOPA, but an advocacy group that conducts itself in such a way is a failure in my book.
 
I thought AOPA was fighting the closure of ISZ as well as the FAA. I read the articles and with my office only 10 minutes from the field I certainly didn't want to see it close. Help me understand how AOPA contributed to closing, and please, this is not a smart a$$ comment I am really wanting to understand their involvement.
 
Basically the plan that AOPA endorsed to "save" the airport could lead to no other outcome than the closure of the field. It speced out using a reconfiguration plan that had already been rejected by the FAA as not feasible. Then it said that if the cities of Blue Ash and Cincinnati did not find it feasible to keep the airport open they could close it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what would happen. When my employer spoke out against the plan we were shunned and dismissed. Being told that we just need to "trust our politicians" these same politicians who had said they didn't want the airport in the past. It even went so far as our ramp being blocked off during the Airshow, effectively denying us use of the airport that only closed during the actual aerial demonstrations. We had the fence promptly removed. It should be noted that the organizer of the air show was none other than the local AOPA rep.

Just for starters
 
So if I kind of read between the lines the person acting as the airport advocate sold out in favor of closing the airport. I guess as a general question these airport advocates (they are called something else but I can't remember what it is) are volunteers so how extensively are their actions monitored or governed by AOPA? Anyone?
 
They were all too quick to take credit when the deal went though, remember the artical "No Meigs in Cincinnati?"

If they want credit for it they can have it
 
Yep and I know about the way CINCY and Blue Ash cancelled then reopened the sales contract to meet some technical point. Where did you have to relocate to, or have you?
 
So I guess we have two alternatives: pick our battles and don't stir up a hornet's nest over something already settled and not too huge. Which just lets it grow bigger as it becomes worse and more invasive next time.

Or, raise hell over this and make them know they can't do this to us! Which they can and will, with a quiet vengeance, as they stomp out our rights anyway.

Some choice....:sad:
 
Goofy said:
So I guess we have two alternatives: pick our battles and don't stir up a hornet's nest over something already settled and not too huge. Which just lets it grow bigger as it becomes worse and more invasive next time.

Or, raise hell over this and make them know they can't do this to us! Which they can and will, with a quiet vengeance, as they stomp out our rights anyway.

Some choice....:sad:
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Your rights were stamped out a long time ago, because we let the police do this to others. First they came for the hippies, then skateboarders, etc. Ancient white guys floating around in expensive toys were bound to get tripped up eventually. The bubble pilots live in is impressive.
 
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