AOPA can't even read the regs

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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From this week's ePilot:

Question: If I am on a cross-country flight and running a little behind, is it OK to use my cell phone in flight to notify my friends?

Answer: FAR 91.21 prohibits pilots operating under IFR from using any portable electronic device while in flight. And the FCC has a regulation that prohibits the use of a cell phone on any aircraft in flight. Specifically, FCC Rule 22.925 states, "Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes, balloons, or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such aircraft are airborne." So, using a cell phone—whether VFR or IFR—is prohibited in flight.
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Hmmm... I was pretty sure it was the FCC, not the FAA, that prohibited in-flight cell phone use. So, I looked up the 91.21 they referenced:

§ 91.21 Portable electronic devices.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any of the following U.S.-registered civil aircraft:

(1) Aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate; or

(2) Any other aircraft while it is operated under IFR.
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Looks to me like part 91 VFR, we're still OK with the FAA.

So, is AOPA answering too fast, or are the regs really that hard to read? I mean, they make sense to me. :dunno:
 
Kent,

I think you and they said the same thing.

They said the FAA prohibits it on IFR flights and the FCC prohibits it on VFR flights so...

"using a cell phone—whether VFR or IFR—is prohibited in flight."

They didn't say prohibited by who.
 
Y'all read paragraph (b) as well as paragraph (a) of 91.21.
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the operator of the aircraft has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.
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If the PIC of a Part 91 airplane determines that the phone "will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used," there is no FAA violation even under IFR. Only the FCC rule is at issue unless the phone interferes with the nav/comm systems, in which case the pilot is an idiot as well as an FAA rule-breaker if s/he allows it to be used while flying IFR. But per the FCC rule, it is never legal to use the cell phone in flight -- IFR or VFR.
 
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(perhaps better left unasked, but...)

How many aircraft operators are qualified to determine if the PED will not
cause interference?
 
Bob Noel said:
(perhaps better left unasked, but...)

How many aircraft operators are qualified to determine if the PED will not
cause interference?
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There are no standards in the regs for making this determination for Part 91 operations. See paragraph (c):
(c) In the case of an aircraft operated by a holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate, the determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that operator of the aircraft on which the particular device is to be used. In the case of other aircraft, the determination may be made by the pilot in command or other operator of the aircraft.
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I guess that means if you have a pilot certificate, you're qualified.
 
hmm, well there is qualified iaw the regs, and then there is qualified
in terms of actually knowing how to identify and quantify interference.

Who's has the sig legal & current <> safe & proficient?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
From this week's ePilot:



Hmmm... I was pretty sure it was the FCC, not the FAA, that prohibited in-flight cell phone use. So, I looked up the 91.21 they referenced:



Looks to me like part 91 VFR, we're still OK with the FAA.

So, is AOPA answering too fast, or are the regs really that hard to read? I mean, they make sense to me. :dunno:
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The other thing is that the FCC reg that they are quoting only applies to cellphone operating in the 800MHz band. The one operating at 2.5GHZ and 1.(GHz are covered by other parts fo the regulation and would not fall under the part 22 stipulation.

See part 22.905

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=22&SECTION=905&YEAR=2000&TYPE=TEXT

Part 24 is what governs the use of the 1.9GHz cell operation and there is no mention of any restriction of the use of the phones in the air.

All that being said, with one exception, the cell systems and PCS systems are designed and optimized for terrestrial use. When I am in my office I can barely use my cell phone anymore as I have been moved into a corner office and get far too much interference from all of the surrounding cell sites that my phone can 'see'. I actually have to walk towards the inside of the building to use my phone.

A company named AirCell operates an airborne cell system on a waiver from the FCC.
 
smigaldi said:
The other thing is that the FCC reg that they are quoting only applies to cellphone operating in the 800MHz band. The one operating at 2.5GHZ and 1.(GHz are covered by other parts fo the regulation and would not fall under the part 22 stipulation.
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How do you know which band your phone is operating on at any given moment? Most phones won't let you choose...
 
jmaynard said:
How do you know which band your phone is operating on at any given moment? Most phones won't let you choose...
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Depends on the phone and the network. It used to be a lot simpler when most phones were not multi-mode nor multi-band. Some phone do hav e away to force you to a specific band but not all.
 
Bob Noel said:
hmm, well there is qualified iaw the regs, and then there is qualified in terms of actually knowing how to identify and quantify interference.
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I guess if you can't tell if the instruments are going haywire when someone turns on a cell phone, you shouldn't be PIC. As for quantifying the interference, that's not my job -- the fact that things are screwy is enough for me to strangle the phone.
 
Ron Levy said:
I guess if you can't tell if the instruments are going haywire when someone turns on a cell phone, you shouldn't be PIC. As for quantifying the interference, that's not my job -- the fact that things are screwy is enough for me to strangle the phone.
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And the dirt simple approach (no pun intended) is to make sure they're off during any critical times like when you are near the ground for takeoff/landing or threading through the mountains. Other than that if anything looks fishy get them all turned off and see if it helps. I have flown a lot with PEDs operating (kids with laptops, video games, dvd players, and of course cellphones left on) and the only two issues I've ever had were an occasional problem breaking squelch on comm (had to turn the DVD off until the next controller) and the "bzzt, bzzt, bzzt" in my headphones (not coming from the radio) when a cellphone in my shirt pocket started transmitting.
 
There are more failure modes than working or completely broken. Without
other instrumentation no PIC can possibly tell if a PED has slightly degraded
the accuracy of the VOR or GPS or a CDI.
 
Kent:

I've seen some real doozers in the AOPA Safety stuff. Always commented and had them attend to it. Keep finding stuff like this, you should become an instructor <g>

Best,

Dave
 
Bob Noel said:
There are more failure modes than working or completely broken. Without other instrumentation no PIC can possibly tell if a PED has slightly degraded the accuracy of the VOR or GPS or a CDI.
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That's simply not true. There are plenty of cross-checks available to the pilot, not to mention the ones available to the GPS. As for the idea of a PED interfering with the CDI itself, I have trouble imagining how that could happen given the shielding and power involved. I can imagine interfering with the signals received, but not the signals from the receiver to the CDI or the CDI itself.
 
I asked an FAA buddy about this a couple a days ago. Here is his replay as an "On Duty Official FAA Safety Inspector."

Larry,
It’s a good question and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a good answer. I can’t speak for the FCC, but according to 91.21 you may be able to depending on the type of operation. It states Air Carrier or aircraft operated under IFR may not. An Air Carrier would be aircraft operating under 121, 125, 135, 137 ect. If my wife & I are out flying around in our plane, we are Air Operators under part 91 and are not flying under an Air Carrier Certificate. As long as we are not IFR, I don’t believe that we would be in violation of an FAR. However, there is the FCC side of the house. I know that there is a big problem with cell phones calling up too many towers in the air. Of course, there are a lot of headset manufactures that have added cell phone hook ups to their products. So, you can get your IFR clearance on the ground, of course!
See ya
(name deleted)
 
Geico266 said:
I asked an FAA buddy about this a couple a days ago. Here is his replay as an "On Duty Official FAA Safety Inspector."

Larry,
It’s a good question and I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a good answer. I can’t speak for the FCC, but according to 91.21 you may be able to depending on the type of operation. It states Air Carrier or aircraft operated under IFR may not. An Air Carrier would be aircraft operating under 121, 125, 135, 137 ect. If my wife & I are out flying around in our plane, we are Air Operators under part 91 and are not flying under an Air Carrier Certificate. As long as we are not IFR, I don’t believe that we would be in violation of an FAR. However, there is the FCC side of the house. I know that there is a big problem with cell phones calling up too many towers in the air. Of course, there are a lot of headset manufactures that have added cell phone hook ups to their products. So, you can get your IFR clearance on the ground, of course!
See ya
(name deleted)
Click to expand...

Good answer. We need more Feds like this guy.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA has directed their Inspectors not to get involved in the enforcement of FCC regulations.
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Since this is two totally different agencies why would they? A FAA Inspector cannot enforce FCC rules nor can the FCC enforce FAR's.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
Since this is two totally different agencies why would they? A FAA Inspector cannot enforce FCC rules nor can the FCC enforce FAR's.
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The trigger was checking for aircraft station and pilot operator radio licenses. The FAA used to, but doesn't any more. If the FAA felt cell phones were a significant flight safety problem, they'd have a more stringent rule for Part 91 operators than the "pilot's discretion" version discussed above.
 
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