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For one reason or another have you opted (no other choice) for sport pilot instead?
N659HB
En-Route
I opted for the SPL because I really didn't want to jump through all the hoops (again) for a 3rd class medical. At this point for me the PPL is just not worth the additional time and expense, not because I couldn't pass the medical. However, I may pursue the PPL at a later date. All my training will count towards those requirements because I have a regular CFI.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
I know dozens of pilots that have let their medicals expire and now fly light sport. Building an RV-12 put me in contact with them. All kinds of reasons, but they all let their medicals expire. I still maintain mine, but some day that will change too.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
I am a P.P. who has given up on FAA medicals - does that count?
RJM62
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Geek on the Hill
For me, it's more a matter of not wanting to go through the nonsense, both medical-wise and otherwise.
I most certainly could get a medical, but I most certainly would have to jump through a few hoops to do so; and quite frankly, I simply can't be bothered at the moment. I have no compelling need (nor even a strong desire) to upgrade. If I ever do, then I'll pay a visit to Dr. Bruce and do whatever he tells me to do. But until then... why bother? The less interaction I have with the government, the better I like it.
In fact, in the past year or two I've meandered even further along the rogue path of not wanting to be bothered with Big Brother's nonsense, and I now mainly fly ultralights. It's all purely recreational for me. I have no place I need to be, so no need to get there quickly; and frankly, I think the U/Ls are more fun, anyway.
I also have to chuckle when I read some of the POA threads that agonize over the finer points of all the regulatory minutiae that simply doesn't come into play in the Part 103 world, either because of exemption by statute, or because no one at FAA gives enough of a flying flip to investigate what that bunch of fools flying lawn chairs out in the boonies is up to.
Sometimes, it almost feels like we're living in a free country again.
-Rich
I most certainly could get a medical, but I most certainly would have to jump through a few hoops to do so; and quite frankly, I simply can't be bothered at the moment. I have no compelling need (nor even a strong desire) to upgrade. If I ever do, then I'll pay a visit to Dr. Bruce and do whatever he tells me to do. But until then... why bother? The less interaction I have with the government, the better I like it.
In fact, in the past year or two I've meandered even further along the rogue path of not wanting to be bothered with Big Brother's nonsense, and I now mainly fly ultralights. It's all purely recreational for me. I have no place I need to be, so no need to get there quickly; and frankly, I think the U/Ls are more fun, anyway.
I also have to chuckle when I read some of the POA threads that agonize over the finer points of all the regulatory minutiae that simply doesn't come into play in the Part 103 world, either because of exemption by statute, or because no one at FAA gives enough of a flying flip to investigate what that bunch of fools flying lawn chairs out in the boonies is up to.
Sometimes, it almost feels like we're living in a free country again.
-Rich
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jnmeade
Cleared for Takeoff
My choice to fly LSA was not because I couldn't pass the medical, although the tests were getting to be a nuisance, but because I found LSA so much more relaxing and I didn't want to run the risk that I may NOT pass the physical. I'm getting on the old side so maybe that influences my thinking.
When I'm in a hurry, I fly at 118-120 kias at 6.3 gph 91 octane and cruise at 110-112 at 5.3 gph.
I took mine experimental but also took the 120 hour course so I can maintain SLSA and ELSA. I find A&P are almost universally happy to help me with advice and even assistance but I don't have to get in line, put my plane down to fit their schedule, etc. for inspections because I can sign the condition inspection.
There is no question that for some missions I miss the T210 and filing IFR. I didn't and don't fly at night much. On long flights, I used to go over the 10K MSL/2k AGL limits so I'm restricted by that now. Still, I've flown the FD on 1800 nm round trips twice and 1300 nm trips twice and plane to fly more.
I fly most often alone and seldom need to have more than one passenger. There are a few times I wish I had the T210 for that.
If I had unlimited money, I'd quite likely get a super AME and jump through the medical hoops and get a go-fast IFR airplane again. In my position, I very much enjoy doing my own maintenance, landing on my farm strip, and simply not worrying about the hassle of the medical and maintenance. It's hard to express how comforting and relaxing it is to know one can fly safely in an LSA exercising SP privileges and it can even be affordable, after the initial purchase. If purchase price for an LSA was an issue, I'd build an E-LSA or E-AB or go ultra-light rather than quit flying. That way I can continue to enjoy the maintenance flexibility I have now.
On most longer trips, I don't worry about passengers or cargo space or weight - I wish I could legally file IFR go over a deck in my E-LSA which I can't. That would give me more flexibility and I think be safer than flying at 2,000 AGL in 7 miles visibility and being concerned that the ceiling or viz might suddenly close in.
I hope that has given some a view of some of my trade-offs. Each person will have their own priorities.
When I'm in a hurry, I fly at 118-120 kias at 6.3 gph 91 octane and cruise at 110-112 at 5.3 gph.
I took mine experimental but also took the 120 hour course so I can maintain SLSA and ELSA. I find A&P are almost universally happy to help me with advice and even assistance but I don't have to get in line, put my plane down to fit their schedule, etc. for inspections because I can sign the condition inspection.
There is no question that for some missions I miss the T210 and filing IFR. I didn't and don't fly at night much. On long flights, I used to go over the 10K MSL/2k AGL limits so I'm restricted by that now. Still, I've flown the FD on 1800 nm round trips twice and 1300 nm trips twice and plane to fly more.
I fly most often alone and seldom need to have more than one passenger. There are a few times I wish I had the T210 for that.
If I had unlimited money, I'd quite likely get a super AME and jump through the medical hoops and get a go-fast IFR airplane again. In my position, I very much enjoy doing my own maintenance, landing on my farm strip, and simply not worrying about the hassle of the medical and maintenance. It's hard to express how comforting and relaxing it is to know one can fly safely in an LSA exercising SP privileges and it can even be affordable, after the initial purchase. If purchase price for an LSA was an issue, I'd build an E-LSA or E-AB or go ultra-light rather than quit flying. That way I can continue to enjoy the maintenance flexibility I have now.
On most longer trips, I don't worry about passengers or cargo space or weight - I wish I could legally file IFR go over a deck in my E-LSA which I can't. That would give me more flexibility and I think be safer than flying at 2,000 AGL in 7 miles visibility and being concerned that the ceiling or viz might suddenly close in.
I hope that has given some a view of some of my trade-offs. Each person will have their own priorities.
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DFH65
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DFH65
I am pondering heavily this decision myself. After emailing Dr. Bruce I am pretty confident if I jump through the hoops the medical is possible just wondering if the hoops are worth jumping through and then the ever looming risk at some point you could get denied.
I am definitely motivated to get flying again. I need to shed quite a bit of weight and am down 29.6 pounds in 66 days (I keep a spread sheet).
My plan at this point if funds allow (big if) is to try to squeeze in some refresher lessons here and there once I hit some weight milestones I have set for myself. These may be in a 172 just getting back up to speed until I get my weight down to the point where I can fit within the useful load of a Champ with gas and an instructor. Then I hope to get the BFR out of the way as well as the tail wheel sign off. Then if there is any possible way to swing it I would like to buy a Champ, Cub, Chief, Luscombe, Taylorcraft or the like.
My mission is bopping around the skies locally hitting the fly ins and the occasional longer cross country nothing very far. I probably could do most of what I wanted to do in a UL except carry a passenger but I don't know enough about them to be honest.
I wish the FAA would just do away with the 3rd class medical but I don't think that is ever going to happen but sure would be nice to add a Piper Colt or Tri-Pacer to the possible planes on my list.
I am definitely motivated to get flying again. I need to shed quite a bit of weight and am down 29.6 pounds in 66 days (I keep a spread sheet).
My plan at this point if funds allow (big if) is to try to squeeze in some refresher lessons here and there once I hit some weight milestones I have set for myself. These may be in a 172 just getting back up to speed until I get my weight down to the point where I can fit within the useful load of a Champ with gas and an instructor. Then I hope to get the BFR out of the way as well as the tail wheel sign off. Then if there is any possible way to swing it I would like to buy a Champ, Cub, Chief, Luscombe, Taylorcraft or the like.
My mission is bopping around the skies locally hitting the fly ins and the occasional longer cross country nothing very far. I probably could do most of what I wanted to do in a UL except carry a passenger but I don't know enough about them to be honest.
I wish the FAA would just do away with the 3rd class medical but I don't think that is ever going to happen but sure would be nice to add a Piper Colt or Tri-Pacer to the possible planes on my list.
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azure
Final Approach
THIS is why LS wouldn't cut it for me -- why I'll jump through whatever hoops it takes to keep my 3rd class. I put in lots and lots of hours getting my IFR ticket (I don't just mean training hours, either) and it's hard now to imagine what flying was like without the privilege. I haven't had too much trouble the last 2-3 exams, but at my age that could change quickly. When it becomes clear that no amount of hoop jumping will be enough to keep my medical, I'll probably hang up my wings and do something else.
N918KT
Line Up and Wait
I chose to go for sport pilot training (and still am in training) because of the drivers license medical rule. But that is not the only reason. I heard the sport pilot license is cheaper to acquire, and I think the light sport aircraft industry and sport pilot program has potential to grow. Plus flying an LSA is just plain fun!
All we gotta do is convince more and more flight schools to add an LSA or two to their training fleet and start a sport pilot curriculum until the sport pilot license becomes available at the majority of flight schools in the U.S.
Hopefully the people who are sport pilots can promote the sport pilot license and LSAs to all airport throughout the U.S. and hopefully get some flight schools or flying clubs to acquire an LSA and start a sport pilot training program.
All we gotta do is convince more and more flight schools to add an LSA or two to their training fleet and start a sport pilot curriculum until the sport pilot license becomes available at the majority of flight schools in the U.S.
Hopefully the people who are sport pilots can promote the sport pilot license and LSAs to all airport throughout the U.S. and hopefully get some flight schools or flying clubs to acquire an LSA and start a sport pilot training program.
Have flown a few lsa aircraft and liked it. If I have trouble with the medical I will be ready to go light sport.only difference between a LSA and my liberty are a few thousand pounds and ability to fly IFR.
NineThreeKilo
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NineThreeKilo
I just posted this on another thread, but I think its a good read on it.
Long story short, I'd recommend still getting a full Private, even if you're doing it in a LSA and only plan to fly LSA.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"What about Light Sport? What are the differences between Sport Pilots and Private Pilots, Light Sport Aircraft and Standard Category Aircraft? Can't you save a lot of money by learning how to fly in a Light Sport aircraft--they say it only takes 20 hours! [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Lots of interest in Light Sport these days (Or is it Sport Light? Never can get that straight--early onset Alzheimer's? Hope not!). In fact, a lot of people are very excited and think LSA will revitalize low-budget fun flying. I hope they're right! I loves cheap flyin'! Cessna just announced their entry into the LSA wars, so they're taking it seriously, too. In fact, Cessna also announced they'll be introducing a whole new line of airplanes, so looks like interesting times ahead! Good! As for differences between Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots and LS Aircraft vs. Standard Category aircraft, there are many, in fact its a pretty complex subject. For more info see http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/fina..._synopsis.html. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]First, Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots. FAA requirements specify what you need to do to get a Pilot Certificate and then, once you're a pilot, what airplanes you can fly, where and when. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important things are 1) Sport Pilots can only fly Light Sport Aircraft, which have lots of restrictions on size, performance and use--a VERY big restriction--and 2) you don't need to pass a medical exam to fly Light Sport Aircraft--if you have a current driver's license you're good to go. Good. No one has ever been able to establish a link between pilot performance or safety and medical exams anyway. Still, if you know you have a medical "deficiency" or have failed a FAA medical exam you are not eligible to fly Light Sport Aircraft, or any other aircraft. Glider pilots don't need medicals, either--or a driver's license. In fact, you can solo a glider at age 14![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Private Pilots can fly LSA and Standard Category aircraft, Sport Pilots can only fly LSA[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]. Restricting yourself to LSA only is a pretty big restriction! A lot of old timers, fearing they might fail their next FAA medical exam, are opting for LSA so they can keep flying. I understand exactly how they feel. Hope I don't have to think about that for a long, long time. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about training costs--are they lower for SP? Good question! L[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]et's talk about the cost of training, the instruction you need to learn to fly safely. Training costs first, then we'll talk about the cost of the airplanes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours won't you save a bunch of money? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It's true the training required by the FAA is somewhat less, mostly having to do with learning to fly in busier airspace, night flying and reduced solo time required before you can get your license, so that reduces the training required and should save you some money. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Trouble is, those are things you need to know. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The reduced solo flight requirement is the biggest part of the difference in the advertised (as opposed to the real) cost. Required solo flight training is the biggest difference between 40-hour PPL courses and the 35-hour courses, too. Listen closely, because nobody else is going to tell you this: Flying solo in a training environment is an important part of your flying education and shouldn't be dismissed lightly, whether we're talking SP or those 35-hour PP courses. You need the supervised solo experience before you can safely fly on your own and start carrying passengers. You don't get it (the FAA doesn't require it) in those 20-hour SP or 35-hour PP courses. Stupid and dangerous. All we're talking about here is getting a little solo flight experience under the supervision of your flight instructor before you can legally fly on your own or carry passengers. Doesn't that sound like a sensible thing to do? Learning to fly is all about getting experience, not just checking boxes on an FAA list. That's why almost no one learns in the minimum time specified by the feds, regardless of what their rules say. It's about common sense and safety.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Why would you want to skip ANY of that stuff, anyway? It's important![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here's the biggest lie: If you look a little closer, beyond the advertising, except for the solo flight requirements you still have to do nearly all the same things for a SP license as for a Private Pilot certificate (all good stuff), but in less time! Can't be done! There is nothing magic about the way LSA's fly--they're still ariplanes![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Learning to fly is about becoming comfortable in a new environment, understanding how this stuff works and learning to make an airplane behave the way YOU want it to. That takes time. Nothing wrong with that. Living takes time. Are you going to stop flying the day you get your license? No. You don't get a college degree the day you finish kindergarten, either.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The 20-hour nonsense is just deceptive marketing baloney--the old bait and switch! We get enough of that in politics! The REAL cost isn't so outrageous that telling the truth would discourage people in the first place--so why lie about it? You don't stop flying the day you get your license anyway--you've just begun! Sheesh! J[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ust because the new rules say you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours doesn't change the fact that it has always taken 50 hours or more, even though the rules have always said 35 or 40. Is there some SP magic going on here? No. Learning still takes time, regardless of the airplane you're flying.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about the cost of the airplane? Now we're getting serious! Are LSA airplanes cheaper to fly? Maybe. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important factor in the cost of learning to fly--all flying, really--is the cost of the airplane. Be smart! Learn to fly in a good, simple airplane at a reasonable rate--like my beautiful Cessna 140! Only $80/hr. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cheap, simple airplanes (did I mention my beautiful, sweet flyin' Cessna 140--ain't none nicer nowhere! Only $80/hr) CAN save you some serious money, whether standard category or LSA--GOOD! If you can fly a cheap LSA I say GO FOR IT! Why pay over $100/hr if you can fly for $80? Just be aware that if you pursue a Sport Pilot certificate in a LSA you'll be restricted to flying nothing but LSA. Is that what you want? What if you could fly a standard category airplane for the same cost as a LSA--or even LESS? Wouldn't that make more sense? Like my Cessna 140 for only $80! (yet another shameless plug!)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But, seriously, what about those LS Aircraft? Are they really cheaper to fly? Again, maybe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Since aircraft purchase price is the most significant part of the cost of flying, what do these LSA cost? Are they cheaper to buy? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Several aircraft already certificated in the Standard Category (Piper J-3 Cubs, some Luscombes, Aeronca Champs, Taylorcrafts, Ercoupes etc.) also qualify as Light Sport Aircraft. You can buy some of them for pretty reasonable prices, maybe as little as $15-$20K or even less. GO FOR IT! I highly recommend buying your own simple, cheap airplane as a good way to save money, maybe even make a little $$ when you sell it and have lots of good, cheap fun. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But there are NO cheap NEW airplanes, LSA or otherwise--that's the big hurdle lots of folks are hoping LSA will jump. Ainna gonna happen! Yes, there are lots of new LSA's coming on the market, but they're not cheap, unless you consider more than $100K cheap! (In which case I'd like to have a chat with you about a really terrific economic opportunity!) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Many LSA are imported from Europe, where all this LSA stuff really started. Some are very interesting, technologically advanced and high-performance for the power--though FAA rules place many restrictions on performance for LSA in the U.S. I've had some nice chats with LS folks about costs. Although some are advertised for around $80K (and that's the bare naked no tires or motor teaser price--the real price is probably $100K or more), many are $130K-$150K or more! Don't know about you, but $80K and up is a lot of money to me. There's hardly an airplane been made that can't be had for $80K or (way) less used. In fact, you can buy several new US aircaft (Taylorcrafts, Champs etc.) that are certificated in the Standard Category--meaning none of the restrictions placed on LSA--for about the same price. Why aren't they getting the attention LSA are?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The second most important factor is the cost of operation. Most two-place airplanes have about 100 horsepower. It takes about five (5) gallons of gas per hour to make 'em run. Avgas costs about $5/gallon today (May 2010), but even if you have to pay $6, it means the cost of operation is under $30/hr, more or less. Other stuff (oil, tires, maintenance, insurance etc.) adds maybe another $5 or $10 per hour, so say it all comes to about $35 or $40/hr. That's why buying your own airplane is the only way you can really save money and why the purchase price is such a big factor. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Hey! I do just fine charging $80/hr for my beautiful little Cessna 140 (none nicer nowhere--and there ain't never been no better fun flyin', cheap flyin' airplane ever been made nowhere!). The reason most flying schools charge so much is because (1) they ususally don't own the airplanes--they lease them--meaning they have to split the income with the owner (2) the real owner had to borrow money from the bank to buy the airplane, so the income gets split again and (3) neither the flying school nor the owner is going to be the one actually giving you the flight instruction--they're just business people trying to make a buck on someone else's labor! Too many hands in the pot, and none of 'em want to do any work! I own my airplanes outright, do all of the instruction and most of the maintenance myself and don't share none of the money with nobody!! So I can charge less and do just fine. You can do exactly the same thing and save yourself a bunch. That's the real world of airplane economics. Want to save money? Don't **** it away on "handling" (as in other folk hands in the pot) fees. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Do it yourself. [/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]So much for LSA saving you money. Hah![/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]About those SP restrictions: You want to be able to fly in any kind of airspace, don't you? Night? Faster, more capable airplanes? Take your friends and family along? If you already are or become a Private Pilot you can fly Light Sport Aircraft any time without further ado--no additional certification required, no limitations, no restrictions, nada, zip, zero, nuthin'. If you become a SP and then decide you really do want to fly something with a little more zip, big enough to take family or friends along, fly in busier airspace, at night etc., you have to upgrade to PPL. No can do as SP. The little bit of additional training required to become a Private Pilot is all Good Stuff that will only make you more capable, safer and more proficient, with none of the restrictions on the airplanes you can fly, how or when. But why make it a two step process? That won't save you any money! [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Who wants to be halfapilot anyway? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bottom Line: I love cheap flyin', but most of this SP stuff is just deceptive advertising. I really can't think of any good reason for being a Sport Pilot. Listen!! Training is the most valuable part of flying--get all you can! Be a ratings collector! You will never stop learning to fly--don't even think about trying to skimp to save a couple bucks. It don't work! Want to fly Light Sport Aircraft? Sure, me, too--been flyin' 'em for years! But Sport Pilot? No, don't think so, thanks for asking. Just sounds like marketing nonsense to me. Sorry if I rained on your parade, but that's the way I sees it. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Long story short, I'd recommend still getting a full Private, even if you're doing it in a LSA and only plan to fly LSA.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"What about Light Sport? What are the differences between Sport Pilots and Private Pilots, Light Sport Aircraft and Standard Category Aircraft? Can't you save a lot of money by learning how to fly in a Light Sport aircraft--they say it only takes 20 hours! [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Lots of interest in Light Sport these days (Or is it Sport Light? Never can get that straight--early onset Alzheimer's? Hope not!). In fact, a lot of people are very excited and think LSA will revitalize low-budget fun flying. I hope they're right! I loves cheap flyin'! Cessna just announced their entry into the LSA wars, so they're taking it seriously, too. In fact, Cessna also announced they'll be introducing a whole new line of airplanes, so looks like interesting times ahead! Good! As for differences between Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots and LS Aircraft vs. Standard Category aircraft, there are many, in fact its a pretty complex subject. For more info see http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/fina..._synopsis.html. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]First, Sport Pilots vs. Private Pilots. FAA requirements specify what you need to do to get a Pilot Certificate and then, once you're a pilot, what airplanes you can fly, where and when. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important things are 1) Sport Pilots can only fly Light Sport Aircraft, which have lots of restrictions on size, performance and use--a VERY big restriction--and 2) you don't need to pass a medical exam to fly Light Sport Aircraft--if you have a current driver's license you're good to go. Good. No one has ever been able to establish a link between pilot performance or safety and medical exams anyway. Still, if you know you have a medical "deficiency" or have failed a FAA medical exam you are not eligible to fly Light Sport Aircraft, or any other aircraft. Glider pilots don't need medicals, either--or a driver's license. In fact, you can solo a glider at age 14![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Private Pilots can fly LSA and Standard Category aircraft, Sport Pilots can only fly LSA[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]. Restricting yourself to LSA only is a pretty big restriction! A lot of old timers, fearing they might fail their next FAA medical exam, are opting for LSA so they can keep flying. I understand exactly how they feel. Hope I don't have to think about that for a long, long time. [/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about training costs--are they lower for SP? Good question! L[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]et's talk about the cost of training, the instruction you need to learn to fly safely. Training costs first, then we'll talk about the cost of the airplanes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours won't you save a bunch of money? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It's true the training required by the FAA is somewhat less, mostly having to do with learning to fly in busier airspace, night flying and reduced solo time required before you can get your license, so that reduces the training required and should save you some money. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Trouble is, those are things you need to know. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The reduced solo flight requirement is the biggest part of the difference in the advertised (as opposed to the real) cost. Required solo flight training is the biggest difference between 40-hour PPL courses and the 35-hour courses, too. Listen closely, because nobody else is going to tell you this: Flying solo in a training environment is an important part of your flying education and shouldn't be dismissed lightly, whether we're talking SP or those 35-hour PP courses. You need the supervised solo experience before you can safely fly on your own and start carrying passengers. You don't get it (the FAA doesn't require it) in those 20-hour SP or 35-hour PP courses. Stupid and dangerous. All we're talking about here is getting a little solo flight experience under the supervision of your flight instructor before you can legally fly on your own or carry passengers. Doesn't that sound like a sensible thing to do? Learning to fly is all about getting experience, not just checking boxes on an FAA list. That's why almost no one learns in the minimum time specified by the feds, regardless of what their rules say. It's about common sense and safety.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Why would you want to skip ANY of that stuff, anyway? It's important![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here's the biggest lie: If you look a little closer, beyond the advertising, except for the solo flight requirements you still have to do nearly all the same things for a SP license as for a Private Pilot certificate (all good stuff), but in less time! Can't be done! There is nothing magic about the way LSA's fly--they're still ariplanes![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Learning to fly is about becoming comfortable in a new environment, understanding how this stuff works and learning to make an airplane behave the way YOU want it to. That takes time. Nothing wrong with that. Living takes time. Are you going to stop flying the day you get your license? No. You don't get a college degree the day you finish kindergarten, either.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The 20-hour nonsense is just deceptive marketing baloney--the old bait and switch! We get enough of that in politics! The REAL cost isn't so outrageous that telling the truth would discourage people in the first place--so why lie about it? You don't stop flying the day you get your license anyway--you've just begun! Sheesh! J[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ust because the new rules say you can learn to fly LSA in only 20 hours doesn't change the fact that it has always taken 50 hours or more, even though the rules have always said 35 or 40. Is there some SP magic going on here? No. Learning still takes time, regardless of the airplane you're flying.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What about the cost of the airplane? Now we're getting serious! Are LSA airplanes cheaper to fly? Maybe. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The most important factor in the cost of learning to fly--all flying, really--is the cost of the airplane. Be smart! Learn to fly in a good, simple airplane at a reasonable rate--like my beautiful Cessna 140! Only $80/hr. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Cheap, simple airplanes (did I mention my beautiful, sweet flyin' Cessna 140--ain't none nicer nowhere! Only $80/hr) CAN save you some serious money, whether standard category or LSA--GOOD! If you can fly a cheap LSA I say GO FOR IT! Why pay over $100/hr if you can fly for $80? Just be aware that if you pursue a Sport Pilot certificate in a LSA you'll be restricted to flying nothing but LSA. Is that what you want? What if you could fly a standard category airplane for the same cost as a LSA--or even LESS? Wouldn't that make more sense? Like my Cessna 140 for only $80! (yet another shameless plug!)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But, seriously, what about those LS Aircraft? Are they really cheaper to fly? Again, maybe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Since aircraft purchase price is the most significant part of the cost of flying, what do these LSA cost? Are they cheaper to buy? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Several aircraft already certificated in the Standard Category (Piper J-3 Cubs, some Luscombes, Aeronca Champs, Taylorcrafts, Ercoupes etc.) also qualify as Light Sport Aircraft. You can buy some of them for pretty reasonable prices, maybe as little as $15-$20K or even less. GO FOR IT! I highly recommend buying your own simple, cheap airplane as a good way to save money, maybe even make a little $$ when you sell it and have lots of good, cheap fun. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But there are NO cheap NEW airplanes, LSA or otherwise--that's the big hurdle lots of folks are hoping LSA will jump. Ainna gonna happen! Yes, there are lots of new LSA's coming on the market, but they're not cheap, unless you consider more than $100K cheap! (In which case I'd like to have a chat with you about a really terrific economic opportunity!) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Many LSA are imported from Europe, where all this LSA stuff really started. Some are very interesting, technologically advanced and high-performance for the power--though FAA rules place many restrictions on performance for LSA in the U.S. I've had some nice chats with LS folks about costs. Although some are advertised for around $80K (and that's the bare naked no tires or motor teaser price--the real price is probably $100K or more), many are $130K-$150K or more! Don't know about you, but $80K and up is a lot of money to me. There's hardly an airplane been made that can't be had for $80K or (way) less used. In fact, you can buy several new US aircaft (Taylorcrafts, Champs etc.) that are certificated in the Standard Category--meaning none of the restrictions placed on LSA--for about the same price. Why aren't they getting the attention LSA are?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The second most important factor is the cost of operation. Most two-place airplanes have about 100 horsepower. It takes about five (5) gallons of gas per hour to make 'em run. Avgas costs about $5/gallon today (May 2010), but even if you have to pay $6, it means the cost of operation is under $30/hr, more or less. Other stuff (oil, tires, maintenance, insurance etc.) adds maybe another $5 or $10 per hour, so say it all comes to about $35 or $40/hr. That's why buying your own airplane is the only way you can really save money and why the purchase price is such a big factor. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Hey! I do just fine charging $80/hr for my beautiful little Cessna 140 (none nicer nowhere--and there ain't never been no better fun flyin', cheap flyin' airplane ever been made nowhere!). The reason most flying schools charge so much is because (1) they ususally don't own the airplanes--they lease them--meaning they have to split the income with the owner (2) the real owner had to borrow money from the bank to buy the airplane, so the income gets split again and (3) neither the flying school nor the owner is going to be the one actually giving you the flight instruction--they're just business people trying to make a buck on someone else's labor! Too many hands in the pot, and none of 'em want to do any work! I own my airplanes outright, do all of the instruction and most of the maintenance myself and don't share none of the money with nobody!! So I can charge less and do just fine. You can do exactly the same thing and save yourself a bunch. That's the real world of airplane economics. Want to save money? Don't **** it away on "handling" (as in other folk hands in the pot) fees. Keep it simple, keep it cheap. Do it yourself. [/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]So much for LSA saving you money. Hah![/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]About those SP restrictions: You want to be able to fly in any kind of airspace, don't you? Night? Faster, more capable airplanes? Take your friends and family along? If you already are or become a Private Pilot you can fly Light Sport Aircraft any time without further ado--no additional certification required, no limitations, no restrictions, nada, zip, zero, nuthin'. If you become a SP and then decide you really do want to fly something with a little more zip, big enough to take family or friends along, fly in busier airspace, at night etc., you have to upgrade to PPL. No can do as SP. The little bit of additional training required to become a Private Pilot is all Good Stuff that will only make you more capable, safer and more proficient, with none of the restrictions on the airplanes you can fly, how or when. But why make it a two step process? That won't save you any money! [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Who wants to be halfapilot anyway? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bottom Line: I love cheap flyin', but most of this SP stuff is just deceptive advertising. I really can't think of any good reason for being a Sport Pilot. Listen!! Training is the most valuable part of flying--get all you can! Be a ratings collector! You will never stop learning to fly--don't even think about trying to skimp to save a couple bucks. It don't work! Want to fly Light Sport Aircraft? Sure, me, too--been flyin' 'em for years! But Sport Pilot? No, don't think so, thanks for asking. Just sounds like marketing nonsense to me. Sorry if I rained on your parade, but that's the way I sees it. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"
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U
Unregistered
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Does switching from a Sport Pilot License to a PPL later down the road raise suspicion regarding the medical?
RJM62
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Geek on the Hill
I don't think it would "raise suspicion." I suspect that some pilots choose SP initially because they don't feel like jumping through the medical hoops, but later decide that those hoops are worth jumping through because they want the additional privileges. Others may eventually get their medical situations sufficiently under control to get certified, and still others initially chose SP for reasons having nothing to do with their medical conditions.
The thing to remember, however, is that a medical denial / deferment once certificated as SP will always result in your losing the ability to exercise your SP privileges. Another is that because of quirky rules, you'd have to repeat most of your dual instruction unless your primary instructor was a "regular" CFI (not a CFI-LS).
-Rich
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Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why would switching FROM SP to a 3rd class medical ( presuming you would pass) cause a concern?
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
There is a misconception about flying IFR in an E-LSA. As I understand it, the pilot's rating that allows IFR (and of course the plane must be equipped and current) but you can fly IFR in an e-lsa if the pilot is qualified. If you are only rated as a sport pilot they you cannot.
A sport pilot cannot fly at night, but as a PPL (if the plane has legal lights) the pilot can fly an LSA at night.
It is the pilot's rating, not the aircraft that limits the use age. Again, if the plane is properly equipped and current.
A sport pilot cannot fly at night, but as a PPL (if the plane has legal lights) the pilot can fly an LSA at night.
It is the pilot's rating, not the aircraft that limits the use age. Again, if the plane is properly equipped and current.
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jnmeade
Cleared for Takeoff
This long winded diatribe (not the short excerpt cited above as a pointer to the message) is the kind of misdirection by innuendo, inference and manipulation that makes a comparison between SPL and PPL difficult rather than useful. It is one person's biased opinion and would not be useful to all. Fine - have the opinion - but let's not try to do a snow job in the guise of providing sound, objective advice.
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SportPilotCO
Pre-takeoff checklist
I got my SP cert two years ago this past May. I am just about to go over 300 hours total time. In those little over two years I have flown from Colorado Springs to Sebring FL solo, Oshkosh multiple times, Tucson, Albuquerque multiple times as well as a bunch of other trips of varying length. I regularly request and fly through Denver's class B and operate in the Springs class C all the time. This past weekend I flew my wife down to ABQ international for a concert. All of this as a SP and in a LSA burning 5-5.5 GPH at around 110 Kts true.
The LSA I own is 4 years old and has a great glass cockpit. I am also slowly building a RV-12. I like the idea of the newer aircraft and avionics. I have flown with an instructor or friends in 172's, Cardinal, Zlin aerobatic, Piper converted tri-pacer to tailwheel and floats, Tiger Moth as well as back seat of a F-16. All of these have their fun associated but for me, save the F-16, the LSA is the most fun.
I can get a medical but haven't chosen to yet. I am having too much fun flying as a SP all over the country!
Carl
The LSA I own is 4 years old and has a great glass cockpit. I am also slowly building a RV-12. I like the idea of the newer aircraft and avionics. I have flown with an instructor or friends in 172's, Cardinal, Zlin aerobatic, Piper converted tri-pacer to tailwheel and floats, Tiger Moth as well as back seat of a F-16. All of these have their fun associated but for me, save the F-16, the LSA is the most fun.
I can get a medical but haven't chosen to yet. I am having too much fun flying as a SP all over the country!
Carl
About a third of my training time is in a LSA but all my students have opted to go for their PPL. The reality is it takes most of the 20 hours to master landings in it, but we work on other things while getting them to solo so it doesn't really impact total time. My last check ride student had 45 hrs total time, with extra solo time since he enjoyed flying x-c in it.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
And THIS is the reason I recommend a PPL if you can pass a medical. In the real world most students are well over minimum hours before they are ready, usually due to infrequent flying (once a week, if that). If you are going to need 50-60 hours to get a SP cert, the costs of just doing the extra few requirements for a private and getting to skip a check ride by going strait to the PPL gives you more options without a lot of extra cost. I think that for many people the cost benefit really favors just going private.
And regardless I would use a regular CFI so you can count the hours!
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
I'll make a long story short. First I bought an airplane. A 2006 CTSW. We had money in the bank and the wife was on board with it. I started taking SP training, first with a Sportstar and then with my CT. I had multiple issues with SP instruction, particularly with landing. I felt the instructor was a combination of incompetent and not wanting to progress me because I was his cash cow. I gave up and was going to sell the airplane. My hangermate, a CFII and a captain with Southwest, said that if I 1) installed some sort of HSI in the airplane 2) got my 3rd class medical and 3) passed the PP knowledge test that he would get me through my PP checkride. He did.
Third class medical is currently expired. I plan to renew it as soon as I lose a few more pounds. I like flying the late evenings.
Third class medical is currently expired. I plan to renew it as soon as I lose a few more pounds. I like flying the late evenings.
most lsa aircraft prevent flying IFR per manufacturer ,however there are a few before the rule was made that can be flown legally.you can fly a elsa ifr if rated but then the aircraft is not certified.
NineThreeKilo
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NineThreeKilo
Bias?
Back when I was teaching I could care less which route a student decides to choose, it was the same to me.
However there are people who whish they got a private instead of a sport license, never seen that work the other way around.
Even if you're never going to be able to fly a non-lsa plane, getting a PPL and using it as a LSA makes more sense.
I'm not lookin for new students anyways, so I really don't have a horse in this race anyways.
NineThreeKilo
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Huh? So he wouldn't train you for a VFR PPL without a HSI??
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Get the sp and get on with it. You can always hoop jump up to pp later. If you are going to be even a semi active pilot the cost difference of adding pp post sp is insignificant.
SportPilotCO
Pre-takeoff checklist
I couldn't agree more. I learned in a school that at the time was LSA only in Denver. They had two locations and six LSA's of different flavors. They merged with a "real" flight school and it was interesting. The LSA group was fun and we had club flyouts and the people were much closer. With the merger it certainly opens up a lot more types of non-LSA's but the club was destroyed in terms of the social aspects. I guess it is better than the way the flight school was pre-merger but there is still a division between SP and PP and higher rated pilots there. It is a shame. With that said, the club is still better than some old school clubs where LSA appears to be a dirty word, or where they will focus on teaching PP in LSA's. I know I am partial but I think SP is a great thing and LSA's are wonderful and capable airplanes.
Carl
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
...and you are in an e-lsa in which the manufacturer has declared it's airworthiness for instrument flight. There aren't many for which this is so.
Again, look at the various e-LSAs. You'll only find a few in which you can do this.
U
Unregistered
Guest
At this time LSA is my only option, I can only hope that they open up <180HP planes to Sport Pilots. I know the AOPA/EAA proposal isn't going anywhere but maybe a bunch of guys, including Dr. Bruce can start a new movement to get sign off from a primary care doc to count as our brother in Australia now have.
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
I tried to keep the story as short as possible.
He wanted at least a turn indicator, which I didn't have. Because of old friendships and good deals, I got a Dynon D-100 EFIS for nearly free. I had that installed.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Yeah that...