Anyone Here Ever Fly for the Civil Air Patrol?

[denverpilot]

Thanks Nate for spilling out your thoughts.....

Those multiple posts pretty much explain how the CAP is a disfunctional organization with layers of management that clearly don't exchange feedback to correct obvious problems. It seems the complete structure and culture in CAP is destined to create issues so someone somewhere has to fill out a form to keep busy, to hell with common sense.

You have explained the reasons for most of the hiccups, apologized for poor behavior, admitting the cadet program is mostly a (dog and pony ) show that is completely out of control and honest enough to post that there were instances where CAP members tried to pull rank on active military.....

Have you ever thought of forwarding these comments you defined here to national so they can get a pulse on reality. Better yet just send the link to this thread so they can see that all the people who have added their comments about having a bad experience with the CAP outnumber the good experiences by 2-1 or more...

With all that said I am sure there are pockets of CAP groups around the country which are a fine examples of the concept and I would suggest anyone to explore those to see if the fit is good... I strongly warn those to keep their eyes WIDE open to view the platform in its entirety to make sure they are not walking into a nightmare..

I commend you and Palmpilot and a couple of others who are strong enough to defend the idiotic and totally unproductive atmosphere that permeates the CAP culture and I really hope some constructive dialog to the top brass at CAP will actually do some good.... Time will tell, but my money is on the perpetuation of the status quo...... After all, that is how a government operation operates..

Wow. If that's what you got out of my posts, you might have some assumptions interacting with them.

I never said I thought CAP was "disfunctional", where do you see that?

You obviously did not look at the forms. I know of no form that doesn't serve a purpose. Certainly not a way to shun comments. If you have a problem you walk up to your Commander and say, "Can I help you fix this?"

I definitely never said the Cadet program was a Dog & Pony show. I have no idea where that came from. Plenty of cadets who've launched amazing careers who credit their time in CAP as the original motivation to do so.

The active military thing was an example of bad behavior by individuals who make the organization look bad, and I was clear the majority of the people involved wont be found associating with those people.

As far as PoA members go, we're a pretty small cross-section of aviation at large. But then again, CAP never promised nor offered to be everyone's cup o' tea.

CAP technically isn't a "government organization" either. It's a 501c3 non-profit with some portion of its budget paid for by Congress. The Air Force is the organization tasked with fiscal oversight as well as third-party auditors.

"Nightmares" are rare. People expecting an all-volunteer organization being something it's not, exceedingly common. People "volunteer" for organizations who have no idea why they volunteered all the time. That's not limited to CAP.

I'm not sure where you got any of your thoughts from what I posted?

 

[N801BH]

Wow. If that's what you got out of my posts, you might have some assumptions interacting with them.

I never said I thought CAP was "disfunctional", where do you see that?

You obviously did not look at the forms. I know of no form that doesn't serve a purpose. Certainly not a way to shun comments. If you have a problem you walk up to your Commander and say, "Can I help you fix this?"

I definitely never said the Cadet program was a Dog & Pony show. I have no idea where that came from. Plenty of cadets who've launched amazing careers who credit their time in CAP as the original motivation to do so.

The active military thing was an example of bad behavior by individuals who make the organization look bad, and I was clear the majority of the people involved wont be found associating with those people.

As far as PoA members go, we're a pretty small cross-section of aviation at large. But then again, CAP never promised nor offered to be everyone's cup o' tea.

CAP technically isn't a "government organization" either. It's a 501c3 non-profit with some portion of its budget paid for by Congress. The Air Force is the organization tasked with fiscal oversight as well as third-party auditors.

"Nightmares" are rare. People expecting an all-volunteer organization being something it's not, exceedingly common. People "volunteer" for organizations who have no idea why they volunteered all the time. That's not limited to CAP.

I'm not sure where you got any of your thoughts from what I posted?

Nate......
I have high respect for you and most of the things you post here as it is apparent you are darn smart... BUT.. in this case have you ever heard the saying " you can't see the forest for the trees"


Ben.

 

[DavidWhite]

Anyone who has met me IRL knows I am very respectful - Ask Greg Bockelman. The first words he said to me when I met him were "What's with this sir sh*t?" LOL!

I am not respectful to "Pint Sized Gestapo" telling me what I can and cannot do at an air show.

One of the (many) times I was at Boerne over the summer there were a group of 4 or 5 cadets standing around in the middle of the taxiway. I was trying to figure out what was going on, and was looking in their direction. All the sudden I hear "WHAT'RE YOU LOOKIN' AT?"

I responded "Dunno, still trying to figure that out"

Watching little fat kids trying to chase after me was of the utmost hilarity.

 

[dell30rb]

I might be interested in cap. I have the hours and I'm sure I can handle a form 5 or whatever check ride. If I have to pay for an hour or two of 172 time, that's fine

I'm interested in learning SAR procedures and helping out.

I'm not interested in flying a 182 in a jumpsuit. Is this disqualifying? Do I have to wear a jumpsuit or is that reserved for cadets?

 

[Palmpilot]

"Worthless" is your word, not mine....

I'm paraphrasing.

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm not interested in flying a 182 in a jumpsuit. Is this disqualifying? Do I have to wear a jumpsuit or is that reserved for cadets?

The type of uniform required varies by state and/or region. The nomex flightsuit and boots requirement I mentioned is the requirement for search flying in Pacific Region, and is due to the abundance of hostile terrain in the West. (Nomex is a fire-retardant material.)

Here is a list of North Carolina squadrons. You can get contact information by clicking on one of them, and they can probably answer your question about what type of uniform is required to fly for CAP there.

http://ncwg.cap.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=unit.map

 

[Palmpilot]

...Just as I walked up to the stand their adult supervisor confronted me and demanded I listen to the kids and get back behind the line... About this time the airboss walks up and says to the adult superviser WTF over? He told them the schedule was now screwed up and for all of them to "GET OFF HIS RAMP". Believe it or not the adult actually started to argue with the airboss claiming they had total control of the show.... I started to laugh so hard I almost ****ed in my pants...

...The problem is it takes ADULT supervision to make it work and apparently that is the weak link..... IMHO/

That story confirms what I have suspected when I have heard such stories, i.e., that the fault lies not with the cadets, but with the adult supervision - not a lack of supervision, but in this case clearly erroneous supervision.

I don't have personal experience with CAP's airshow participation, but if inappropriate behavior is as universal as you seem to think, I have to wonder why airshows are continuing to use them.

 

[Palmpilot]

Nate......
I have high respect for you and most of the things you post here as it is apparent you are darn smart... BUT.. in this case have you ever heard the saying " you can't see the forest for the trees"


Ben.

I don't doubt that people have had some bad experiences, but I have to wonder if you think you ARE seeing the forest for the trees. Perhaps people's differing perceptions of the organization are more akin to the story of "the blind men and the elephant.

 

[murphey]

That story confirms what I have suspected when I have heard such stories, i.e., that the fault lies not with the cadets, but with the adult supervision - not a lack of supervision, but in this case clearly erroneous supervision.

I don't have personal experience with CAP's airshow participation, but if inappropriate behavior is as universal as you seem to think, I have to wonder why airshows are continuing to use them.

it's not a universal problem, but as with any volunteer organization, there are always screwups. Rule of thumb - if the cadet is unsure of procedure or policy, call the adult. I want to know why the adult CAP member wasn't nearby? Altho in this case, having the adult nearby was not exactly the best solution, either.

I know at the BJC airshow both the adults and many of the cadets have been working the show for years. Yes, there are some screwups, but fewer every year.

EAA's B17 spends a week in Denver at KAPA, and the cadets are out in full force. I'm usually flying Young Eagles that week, but last year I was the YE coordinator for 3 days. We didn't have our act together as well as we should have (that's being addressed right now, months before the event) and having the cadets handy (dare I say - as slave labor?) made my life much easier managing the hundreds of parents who promised their kids free airplane rides....

Success is based on good planning & communication. We've got the LSA Expo here in 2 months (yikes!!!!) and we're asking/requiring all the volunteers to show up the day before for a walk-thru of the grounds and make sure everyone understands who/what/where/etc. I've asked two of the local cadet squadrons to participate, will let you know how it goes.

As has been noted in other messages here, it all depends on the local squadron and the people involved.

 

[denverpilot]

Nate......
I have high respect for you and most of the things you post here as it is apparent you are darn smart... BUT.. in this case have you ever heard the saying " you can't see the forest for the trees"

Dunno. I've been on the BoD for two or three volunteer organizations over the years. (Still sit on one...)

I've seen WAY worse than anything at CAP. CAP has guidelines and Regs for stuff because it's an enormous undertaking to operate something as big as it is without them.

Volunteer organizations are a very different beast than pretty much any other "business" out there. There's no intrinsic motivation for anyone to do anything. You don't like it, you walk. If it were as bad as the Internet would have you believe, no one would join or stay.

CAP has its quirks, but also manages to operate the largest piston single fleet in the world with a better long-term safety record than the general piston single community... and that's just the flight side of things.

They also run a National organization for kids and the AE program at the same time. All as a function of their Charter given by Congress. None of the Core Missions are "optional". Congress wants (and gets) an Annual accounting.

In fact, just a week or so ago this year (after the Winter Board meeting), all of the Wing Commanders visit their respective Representative's offices in D.C. and answer questions, share the audit and activity information about all of the Missions, and do that travel and work on their own dime.

All while the part-time volunteers are being monitored and audited by full-time USAF personnel.

My Squadron will be "Black Hat" audited and asked for the location and disposition of every government-purchased piece of equipment in a couple of weeks. The Wing, the Squadron, or even individual members can be assessed a monetary penalty if anything is missing.

When was the last time your Church group, Scouts, or Softball team was visited by a USAF Lt. Colonel with a mission to make sure every item it had ever purchased was checked-off on audit sheets and every item labeled clearly as being owned by your non-profit all-volunteer organization or disposed of properly via government auction?

We're talking down to the tow-bar level here. If that tow-bar is missing or not marked, it can be prosecuted as a Federal crime. (Obviously this is where the "common sense" you were looking for comes in. No one's going to shutter an entire Wing for a tow-bar and throw John Q. Public volunteer at large in the pokey. But losing Federally-purchased gear is darn serious.)

I dare say that anyone would be hard-pressed to keep a herd of humans headed all in one direction with all of that going on. Most folks who say they can do better usually haven't. (There's very few National organizations where they could even have attempted it.)

I don't think most folks looking at the organization quite get the scope of it nor the difficulty of managing something that large while also trying to give Squadrons the leeway to be as autonomous as possible so they can best serve their local community where needed.

CAP pioneered what they call "Cadet Protection" ten years before the Boy Scouts even admitted they had a problem with abusive Scout leaders, for one concrete example.

All Senior Members are fingerprinted and background-checked with the FBI and have been since I first joined in 1992. No one works with Cadets alone. No one without the background check works with Cadets, period.

They had a Chaplin Corps (still do) for handling what we today call "Critical Incident Stress" issues and PTSD, 30 years before any other organization even thought about having someone around for Search teams to talk to, who found dead bodies at the other end of the trail. (Don't mistake "Chaplain" for religion either. The Chaplin Corp accepts trained, vetted, counseling professionals also.)

My answers to the individual complaints levied by folks here weren't intended to give any kind of overview of the total organization.

That'd take about another 20 posts to cover all the GOOD stuff.

I think you've taken those answers and twisted them into a picture of what CAP is in your head -- just a little bit -- without asking for the good stories?

Lives saved, Cadets who go on to enlist and have stellar careers, Spaatz Award cadets doing community projects equal to the level of the admired Eagle Scout program, Seniors who find the graves of forgotten military leaders and make sure someone visits and honors them every Memorial Day... the list goes on and on.

Our Wing provided labor at disaster relief distribution centers during recent wildfires. The State knew the organization could self-deploy with minimum fuss (not showing up underdressed for the elements... not dehydrated because no one brought water... Ready to work, communicate (my "thing") with their own radio gear, show up with Commanders who were trained in and understood the FEMA ICS system who could instantly integrate into the overall effort, and most of all... that we'd come.

Some groups just want the "glory" jobs, be on TV, etc. CAP just shows up, does the job, doesn't need massive amounts of babysitting, and goes home, when asked.

Citizen volunteers on a National level. All started with a few folks who said, "Yeah... We'll patrol the coasts for U-Boats" around the beginning of WWII.

It's kinda just a very formalized extension of what we all know about most pilots here in our little online community. They're great people. They'll do anything to help anyone.

 

[dmccormack]

Nate, CAP has plenty of benefits - many young people are mentored, a few lives are saved, and too many wrecks are located. Lots of volunteers, lots of dedication -- all great stuff.



And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I was a CAP member (once as a kid after the Eagle Scout left me with not much to do in the BSA and last time as a flying "senior")

But what you describe here is the sort of thing that has "wannabe" written all over it.

My Squadron will be "Black Hat" audited and asked for the location and disposition of every government-purchased piece of equipment in a couple of weeks. The Wing, the Squadron, or even individual members can be assessed a monetary penalty if anything is missing.

When was the last time your Church group, Scouts, or Softball team was visited by a USAF Lt. Colonel with a mission to make sure every item it had ever purchased was checked-off on audit sheets and every item labeled clearly as being owned by your non-profit all-volunteer organization or disposed of properly via government auction?

We're talking down to the tow-bar level here. If that tow-bar is missing or not marked, it can be prosecuted as a Federal crime. (Obviously this is where the "common sense" you were looking for comes in. No one's going to shutter an entire Wing for a tow-bar and throw John Q. Public volunteer at large in the pokey. But losing Federally-purchased gear is darn serious.)

When I took command of a US Army infantry company I signed for over $8 million in vehicles, weapons, and related equipment, an armory, and all the individual soldier TA-50 (issue equipment). The army uses a hand receipt system and it all flows down -- BN CO to CO CO on down.

We had annual audits. My supply sergeant knew how it all worked and had a good supply of "spares" to fill gaps. I never had any loss and retired from command without having to pay for any lost stuff.

Sure, some COs weren't as well provisioned with good sergeants so they had to pay for missing Xs and Ys (there is a $ limit based on pay grade).

But no soldier -- not one - ever was "prosecuted" for a "federal offense" for losing an E-tool (equivalent to a tow bar). There may have been an Article 15 written up (very simple admin process) and $200 taken from next pay, but if it was a justifiable loss, we fixed it.


I heard this sorta "Federal Offense" talk a few times in CAP and thought it was just local hype. Apparently it's not.

 

[denverpilot]

That's an interesting observation. Mainly because that process mentioned above's rules aren't created by CAP at all. Those are set by USAF.

More specifically, set by and administered by the USAF-CAP staff (the USAF directorate under the USAF Training Command who administers and audits the CAP budget).

I haven't met anyone who likes the annual audits.

If it sounds "wannabee" it's definitely not because the average CAP member wants it that way.

If you told me that in two week's time I wouldn't be sitting in the Squadron office showing (the very nice) USAF LtCol the radio gear, while she checks off the boxes on her sheet, I wouldn't shed any tears.

 

[dmccormack]

That's an interesting observation. Mainly because that process mentioned above's rules aren't created by CAP at all. Those are set by USAF.

More specifically, set by and administered by the USAF-CAP staff (the USAF directorate under the USAF Training Command who administers and audits the CAP budget).

I haven't met anyone who likes the annual audits.

If it sounds "wannabee" it's definitely not because the average CAP member wants it that way.

If you told me that in two week's time I wouldn't be sitting in the Squadron office showing (the very nice) USAF LtCol the radio gear, while she checks off the boxes on her sheet, I wouldn't shed any tears.

Nate -- I spent 10 years in the USAF: 4 years in SAC, 6 years in SpecOps.

No one there ever said "federal offense" and "lost gear" in the same sentence.

Oh -- and I never saw an LTC doing an audit -- ever. That's NCO work.

 

[airbornejohnny]

Nate -- I spent 10 years in the USAF: 4 years in SAC, 6 years in SpecOps.

No one there ever said "federal offense" and "lost gear" in the same sentence.

Oh -- and I never saw an LTC doing an audit -- ever. That's NCO work.

Dan- Internally to the military, you are correct that NCO's handle the work involved in accounting for everything and maintaining standards. In this case however, the responsibility to audit is that of a USAF officer. Think of such that the CAP members who are responsible for the gear would be the NCO's, and they are reporting and confirming their report to USAF when their representative is going through the audit.
Were you army, air force or both? When were you infantry?

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. Your supply Sergeant was full-time and paid to do the job, BTW.

What was "simple admin" when you're there every weekday and some weekends, easily transforms into something difficult with a volunteer group of barely part-timers with jobs and lives.

It only takes a couple hours to audit an entire Squadron for the USAF-CAP personnel and I'm sure this is how USAF sees the job. "Simple Admin".

A couple of hours for me on a weeknight to wait around for my five-ten minutes with the USAF officer visiting to do the audit, plus an hour or so to prep my stuff in advance, is a lot of time in the "volunteer's time budget", both personally and having run a few volunteer organizations and seen how little time most folk have these days.

A necessary evil, is all. USAF wants to audit, CAP isn't in any position to say no.

I don't get an option to say, "Come audit me next year USAF, I'm busy tonight. I wanted to munch Bon Bons at home and watch 'Flying Wild Alaska'."

 

[N801BH]

Dunno.........
In fact, just a week or so ago this year (after the Winter Board meeting), all of the Wing Commanders visit their respective Representative's offices in D.C. and answer questions, share the audit and activity information about all of the Missions, and do that travel and work on their own dime.

All while the part-time volunteers are being monitored and audited by full-time USAF personnel.

My Squadron will be "Black Hat" audited and asked for the location and disposition of every government-purchased piece of equipment in a couple of weeks. The Wing, the Squadron, or even individual members can be assessed a monetary penalty if anything is missing.

When was the last time your Church group, Scouts, or Softball team was visited by a USAF Lt. Colonel with a mission to make sure every item it had ever purchased was checked-off on audit sheets and every item labeled clearly as being owned by your non-profit all-volunteer organization or disposed of properly via government auction?

We're talking down to the tow-bar level here. If that tow-bar is missing or not marked, it can be prosecuted as a Federal crime. (Obviously this is where the "common sense" you were looking for comes in. No one's going to shutter an entire Wing for a tow-bar and throw John Q. Public volunteer at large in the pokey. But losing Federally-purchased gear is darn serious.)

.

When I was involved in tha CAP my intent was to offer my flying skills to help fellow human beings..... The whole time I was in the unit it was constantly stated... " You break. bend , scratch, lose or destroy CAP equipment either you or your estate will pay back the TAXPAYERS who actually own the planes and equipment... I heard that 1000 times.. over and over again... Just a few months after I joined Fletcher Anderson, a self proclaimed author, professional pilot, CFI, CAP check pilot came onboard in our Jackson chapter. His flying career showed he had crashed several times, he even mentions it in his mountian flying book. My form 5 was to have him give that flight check to me... In the few months I was around him his poor flying became crystal clear to me and I was not about to take the check ride from him. In fact I would not even fly with him....

The morning of the crash I was the one who helped pull N9928H out of hangar 2 as I was building commercial buildings at the airport that year. He wanted to know if I wanted to ride to Afton so he could give some flight instruction to a new member... That alone is illegal to do in a CAP plane.. The final report was altered to say he was to give a check ride.... Yeah right..... There was no way I was getting in that plane with him that morning and I wished him a safe trip and waved good bye... He was dead 16 minutes later....... http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/gm2kc145k4tubq45axmj5o551/R03172012120000.pdf


The crash happened in the Snake River canyon, 14 feet over the water and at that location the canyon walls were less then 100 feet apart and 3000 feet high... A MINIMUM safe altitude is 10,400 and he was at 6,000 or so.... Plain and simple he was flying recklessly and destroyed a CAP in the process. I would love to see ANY paperwork that shows his estate paid back the taxpayers in full to replace N9928H, all the equipment that was in the plane, the cost of search and recovery, the cost of recovering the plane and transporting it back to Beegles in Colorado and any other expenses the taxpayers had to shell out for his poor decision making... Nate, You seem to be very well connected to the CAP so finding those documents should be a piece of cake for you and it would be great to have these documents see the light of day...

After that fiasco I really did some soul searching about my involvement in the CAP... Then this crash happened.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/aviation/AccidentReports/0oyibv45yxl14eq4iyvwrk451/Y03172012120000.pdf

Flown by a pilot who was touted as the best mountain pilot in the region. He was the instructor for the CAP to give me the Mountain Fury course.... As you can see, not only did he take out himself but two other innocent human beings.... So, is a course of a few months, 4 dead, two planes destroyed and the writing was on the wall for me to run, not walk away from the CAP. Ya see,, really, really want to live to a ripe old age and in my mind the CAP would prevent that. Just last month a key player in the Jackson CAP unit invited me to attend the Feb CAP monthly meeting, and to keep an open mind I went to see how things have changed.... My decision... I AM NEVER GOING BACK to that self serving dog and pony show.....

Nate, I look forward to reading the docs on the estate payback to cover the taxpayers expenses on the N9928H destruction.. if you don't want to publish it here I understand so feel free to send it to my email address... I am betting 1 million bucks that whole thing was covered up and not a dime changed hands though..

Cheers

 

[dmccormack]

Dan- Internally to the military, you are correct that NCO's handle the work involved in accounting for everything and maintaining standards. In this case however, the responsibility to audit is that of a USAF officer. Think of such that the CAP members who are responsible for the gear would be the NCO's, and they are reporting and confirming their report to USAF when their representative is going through the audit.
Were you army, air force or both? When were you infantry?

10 years USAF (enlisted and NCO), 11 years Army (Officer), 1980-2001

 

[airguy]

.. I AM NEVER GOING BACK to that self serving dog and pony show.....

I'm with Ben on this one, and apparently the vast majority of other respondents on this thread are as well.

Nate - we recognize that you love the CAP, and more power to you for your time in it - but you're not winning any converts here. Give it up.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm with Ben on this one, and apparently the vast majority of other respondents on this thread are as well.

Nate - we recognize that you love the CAP, and more power to you for your time in it - but you're not winning any converts here. Give it up.

I'm just posting the "other half of the story".

Or as my dad says he wants posted above the open bar at his funeral, "Remember anything you hear here is only one half of the story."

Folks can make up their own minds.

Just got back from a backseat training mission in Aerial Photography. The pilot did a fine job putting me in a position to shoot the training target photos (a parking lot, a train station, and a pedestrian bridge - I jokingly said the scenario was a riot at an Apple Store just because I thought it was funny and y'all know my twisted humor!).

The right-seater is a guy who sold his original company to FLIR for the early technology and is a really decent trainer of how to image things from aircraft. Hard to find that kind of training without being buddies with someone in that industry. Here's a guy volunteering his time who said, "Let's get one of your required training sorties knocked out this weekend" and then gave personal insights into how to get that "perfect shot" from a 90 knot fixed-wing aircraft.

Me, I got a little more time behind the camera lens. More confident with the DSLR in a bouncing airframe every time.

The end result...if a "customer" needs a series of photos of something, we'll have trained and qualified volunteers in this "new to CAP" (relatively anyway) specialty here locally who can also be deployed elsewhere and fit into the same or similar crew type in another State if called upon.

Missouri Wing did this for FEMA last year with the floods and FEMA found they could assess the condition of hundreds of miles of river levies only a few hours after asking for the photo run. They could mix satellite imagery with detailed low level photos of the same area and know with more certainty what the conditions were along the river.

One thing I did notice in one reply... that we try to tell folks when they first come in, in our Squadron anyway...

We're a "flying Squadron" but Pilots always show up and "want to offer flying services" -- but often don't want to learn the other aircrew positions, or more accurately, take the time to do so. The organization doesn't have the luxury of having an over-abundance of right-seaters and back-seaters.

Some people specialize in that and they're worth their weight in gold.

Most are pilots willing to swap seats and learn new skills.

If someone's not willing to do some time in other jobs in CAP other than driving the school bus, they're probably going to get frustrated pretty quick, because while they might get to fly for proficiency, the missions and mission training for requirements to meet them, take priority.

We're WAY above the Air Force who has only 4% of their staff flying something and 96% assigned to necessary ground-pounder roles to keep 'em flying.

Having watched it for a few years now, I've realized it isn't necessarily any kind of unwritten rule or anything like that. It's a numbers thing. If you have a few Mission Specialties done and those need to be re-qualified every few years, you're in the aircraft and in a different seat a lot.

You get a lot of "face time" with Check Airmen and regular IPs just by the nature of being in their back or right seat regularly. It's a lot easier to say, "Hey, when can you and I start on that Form 5? You have any time this week, say Tuesday morning?" if you're spending a few hours a week seeing these guys.

It's definitely not meant to be a flight club to rent airplanes from, and that story about the IP running off to "instruct someone new" really reverberate and make me angry when I hear them. In that same Wing there were probably 20-40 other flights that week, all of which followed the rules. No one is posting on the Internet about those.

Instruction for advanced ratings is allowed, by the way. One of our members followed procedures, asked for Wing approval, and did his Instrument Rating on weekdays when the aircraft wasn't busy, with a retired CAP CFII who had the time, in the G1000 T182T. Lest someone think Instruction was the problem in that story. The description was unclear.

And again, the Devil's in the details.

I think ultimately it's about the people. A Squadron full of weenies will always be a Squadron full of weenies. It becomes cultural in that group of people.

A squadron busy doing the missions and the required training, is often pretty fun. But again, volunteers bring their own attitudes and baggage and some

As one of our other Staff members put it, "I don't do all this work because I love administration duty, I do it because I get to work with you folks around this table."

If the "folks around the table" aren't worth working with, you walk. I've done that before too.

You look harder for the good folks and go where they are. In some areas where there's only one Squadron, it'd be hard to find different people.

There's about five within easy drive of my house, so it's not hard to "walk" and maintain being involved.

Not saying, and never have said that it's everyone's cup of tea. Just giving the reasonable view from the other side. Folks are going to find workers and wannabes, bad pilots, good pilots, egos, people with none, good leaders, bad leaders, etc etc etc.

I feel bad for folks who've run into the bad examples. The good ones are out there too.

 

[Anthony]

Well this is interesting. I recently received a notice from the municipality (Borough) as I am a hangar tenant that "for security purposes, and emergency access, the Civil Air Patrol has recommended that all hangars have the locks changed to security locks. Each tenant must make an appointment with the Borough to receive two keys with picture I.D. "

WTF. Now I am wondering if I can even get into my hangar this weekend???

What has the CAP to do with airport security?

 

[Palmpilot]

I'm with Ben on this one, and apparently the vast majority of other respondents on this thread are as well.

Nate - we recognize that you love the CAP, and more power to you for your time in it - but you're not winning any converts here. Give it up.

How is it your place to tell someone to stop posting on any subject?

 

[denverpilot]

Well this is interesting. I recently received a notice from the municipality (Borough) as I am a hangar tenant that "for security purposes, and emergency access, the Civil Air Patrol has recommended that all hangars have the locks changed to security locks. Each tenant must make an appointment with the Borough to receive two keys with picture I.D. "

WTF. Now I am wondering if I can even get into my hangar this weekend???

What has the CAP to do with airport security?

Probably nothing. Most airports blame it on TSA even when they're not required to do anything. It's the airport's decision.

Some person in CAP probably handed some idiot at the airport a GA Security flyer from TSA and now the airport thinks they have to do something.

The current uber-stupid-panic over GA "security" certainly isn't limited to CAP folk. But I'm sure we have a few Dudley DoRights who'd hand out flyers.

Locking up airplanes does tend to be common sense, but the airport decided to mandate it.

 

[denverpilot]

How is it your place to tell someone to stop posting on any subject?

Didn't you get the memo? He's in charge of the Internet today. I'm breaking his rules and subject to penalties and fines.

(The phrase/attitude, "CAP is wrong, thry should do things MY way!" comes to mind for a good laugh! He probably didn't think about that particular but of irony... I've heard that one before.)

Heh heh. No need to defend my honor, I gave it up for Lent.

 

[N801BH]

How is it your place to tell someone to stop posting on any subject?

I, for one does not want this topic to die till you, or Nate or any other CAP member provide me with documentation of the Fletcher Anderson estate paying back the taxpayers of the United States of America the 500,000 + dollars that his irresponsible flying cost the citizens of the US.....

Ps....
Nate.. I did NOT want to go straight into the left seat.... I went through dozens of hours of CAP training, obtained Observer and Scanner status and was scheduled for my mission pilot rating when the fatalities started happening.. It was MY choice to leave the CAP to extend my life.
Nice try to paint the picture of me wanting to go straight to the left seat. .

If you want to me to share the great story of a SAREX I attended in Guernsey WY I will.. I warn you though, it makes the CAP look pretty bad.... Altho no lives were lost during that goat roping. And don't even get me started on the CAP regs for physical criteria as more then half the CAP members would fail to meet the specs...

 

[Palmpilot]

I too, have heard about accidents in CAP that shouldn't have happened. That's true of general aviation too, but I continue to fly GA anyway.

I do find myself wondering how your wing's safety record compares to CAP as a whole.

 

[N801BH]

..................
I do find myself wondering how your wing's safety record compares to CAP as a whole.

I honestly hope to he!! it is the worst record in the whole US, in fact it better be the worst in the world..... If not then I better move into a cave to protect myself from falling aircraft..:wink2:

 

[GCA319]

I had one of the little wannabes tell me I couldn't go to the GA parking at an airshow. (I flew in, airshow portion was over and I wanted to beat the crowd out.) I told him I was a pilot and pointed at my airplane, he said "No you're not." I pulled out my pilots cert and made the little retard look at it. I had another CAP person refuse to talk to me because I WASN'T part of the CAP and wasn't worth her time. I had a CAP airplane pull on the runway while I was abeam the numbers and tell me to extend my downwind because he was doing his runup. When I was working at the front desk at Boerne over the summer I had one of the "Powered Flight Academy" graduates try to rent an airplane from me. When I told him he would need a checkout from an instructor he told me "You don't understand, I'm with the CAP." He was a student pilot with less than 15 hours.

Just ask any CAP pilot though, and they will tell you how great they are. I've only met 1 CAP pilot from a squadron around here that I like, and even he says some of the people are retards. From what I've heard we just have lousy squadrons around here, because it sounds like they have some good ones up in Colorado. All of the junior members are FSXperts. All of them trot their rank around like it actually means something, and I can't help but laugh.


I was at the Fredericksburg diner once with my friend who was a harrier pilot, and T28 instructor who is currently flying for AA. He thinks they are stupid, too.

Sounds about right...

 

[dmccormack]

Holy cow....

I "offered my services" as a CFI to CAP (was a member, Form 5'ed, yada...)

But somehow airplanes were never available as they were commandeered by certain folks.

So despite the offer to provide free flight training to a raft of willing and able kids, it never happened.

Anyway, I'm done with CAP. I tried.

 

[Art VanDelay]

When I joined the CAP all I wanted to do was paperwork and walk around in a Curtis LeMay junior uniform and hope that people didn't notice the "Auxiliary" part and just saw the Air Farce part. That and sit and do stack after stack of mindless government forms. Nothing makes me happier than just sitting in a room under florescent lighting with no windows and doing paperwork. But in the CAP whenever I tried to start to do some paperwork they would make me go out and fly a stupid airplane. How do they think I'll ever get around to that paperwork with all this airplane flying crap ?

 

[ChrisK]

They were both respected experienced pilots and this is the sort of accident situation you hope to not find yourself. I think using this particular accident as a reflection of CAP is anecdotal, unfortunate, and inappropriate.

And I need to learn to use tapatalk on my new iPad before posting again. Haha.

 

[dmccormack]

When I joined the CAP all I wanted to do was paperwork and walk around in a Curtis LeMay junior uniform and hope that people didn't notice the "Auxiliary" part and just saw the Air Farce part. That and sit and do stack after stack of mindless government forms. Nothing makes me happier than just sitting in a room under florescent lighting with no windows and doing paperwork. But in the CAP whenever I tried to start to do some paperwork they would make me go out and stand at attention with a bunch of other people and tell us that unless I finished the paperwork they would punish me for a Federal offense.

Now that was funny. But I fixed it for you.

 

[denverpilot]

But somehow airplanes were never available as they were commandeered by certain folks.
.

Just curious, how long ago? Pre-online scheduling or after it was added to WMIRS?

Nowadays you just book the airplane online. Nobody could "commandeer" it without a higher priority mission type.

I've heard stories of places that had paper scheduling long ago that had some issues with stuff like that, but our Squadron paid for a third party scheduling website to avoid that silliness.

Probably also depends a lot on whether there's enough aircraft stationed nearby. There's five within a short drive of where I'm sitting, and eight within a longer drive. There's also two gliders in trailers out running around for training Cadets.

One of our CFIs went to the National Cadet Powered Flight Academy last year and taught piles of kids. Did you ever look into working at those type events?

If you had enough Cadets to have a "pile" of them, coordinating an Encampment would have been a good way to handle the aircraft scheduling issue. Most Wings will yank multiple aircraft into an Encampment like that.

(And then someone else could complain that you'd "commandeered" them. Haha.)

Kidding on that last part. No one I know complains that aircraft head off to Encampments.

Honestly, most of us want to see photos and hear stories of first solos and what-not.

Our local CFI who went came back with a great photo album. Lots of smiles.

 

[denverpilot]

Nate.. I did NOT want to go straight into the left seat....

I never said you did. Just documenting other stuff I've seen for those reading along who are thinking about things.

If you want to me to share the great story of a SAREX I attended in Guernsey WY I will.. I warn you though, it makes the CAP look pretty bad.... Altho no lives were lost during that goat roping.

LOL. I've been to a SAREX at Guernsey. Rode along on a flight to let Wyoming borrow a Colorado aircraft for the weekend. Many many years ago. Army fish sticks are pretty bland.

Wyoming Wing has unique challenges. Most of them stem from a severe lack of personnel. I could see where they might also suffer from the Good Old Boy network a bit, mainly for that reason. I believe one of their Wing Staff lives in Colorado, for example. They couldn't find a qualified candidate up there, was what I heard.

And don't even get me started on the CAP regs for physical criteria as more then half the CAP members would fail to meet the specs...

If you mean for uniform wear, agreed. There are no "physical criteria for members". There are physical criteria for wearing the AF style uniforms. No criteria for Corporate uniforms. (Actually that's be discrimination and someone would certainly sue any non-profit that had them, these days.)

I wholeheartedly agree about not disrespecting the AF uniforms. I suspect the reason it gets overlooked is weak Commanders.

You can't win in that situation. You're caught between those who'd complain the organization is "too military" (see complaints of exactly this further up the post chain) if a Commander gets hard after the physical standards of someone who's wearing the wrong uniform, and some overly sensitive chub who likes suing over their weight problem because it's "glandular" according to his chiropractor/hippie wholistic "Doctor".

Don't even get me started on how hard it would be for a Commander in a volunteer organization to tell a woman she's out of uniform because she's too fat. Holy crap.

As Murphy mentioned, our Squadron has been casual about the uniforms for decades and most folks wear the Corporate polo shirt combination. No grade insignia, no problems with the height/weight Regs... works out better for everyone.

You're never going to get civilians in Fat America to shape up enough to meet even the "relaxed" requirements for AF style uniform wear. We're a country of chubbies. CAP reflects it.

I've been told I look like I meet the standard, but I know the scale says I'm about 20 lbs over for my height. I don't don the AF uniforms and I recommend that others don't out of respect for those who wear the real deal. We have a few guys who can pull it off and also know how... But it's rare in our Squadron.

Plus anyone can get a blue blazer tailored to look like you at least give a darn about your appearance, add a name plate and either the Regimental or blue tie, and a pair of decent wool grey slacks, and look quite dapper... If you're into that sort of thing. One of our ex-Legal Officers shows up that way pretty regularly. He wears the combo to work, adds the magnetic nameplate to his blazer pocket, and he's instantly in uniform.

That uniform seems to have been custom made for the business world when every day wasn't Casual Friday. I'd get crap if I showed up to work in a blue blazer and white shirt. "Where you interviewing at?" Ha.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I had an experience similar to many here: Entrenched "Good ol boys" club where hours were doled out by personal preference. I bit my tongue until the first "exercise" which was a collection of shoddy searches and hurried Form 5 checkrides for a chosen few. In the debrief I was asked my opinion and I stated that if I ever went down I hoped it wasn't our squadron looking for me, and left, never to return. I based my opinion on some time I garnered with another SAR organization, the USCG, where I accumulated 11400 hours in both fixed and rotary wing A/C. (HC130, HH3F, HH52 )

 

[dmccormack]

Just curious, how long ago? Pre-online scheduling or after it was added to WMIRS?

Nowadays you just book the airplane online. Nobody could "commandeer" it without a higher priority mission type.

Recent (2008-10). I was the Squadron Ops officer and took care of the monthly reporting and used WMIRS. And getting your schedule bumped is easy when you're not a "mission" pilot.

Anyway, CAP can work. I met some fine people and pilots.

But the noise to signal ratio is simply too high for me.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

From the gist of your message, and others I have read here I am glad to learn it wasn't just me. I found in the past that compromising expectations in training usually resulted in gross deficiencies in real world ops. I am sure there are real professional squadrons out there....at least I HOPE so.

 

[jaybee]

I'm curious whether or not the people whining about being ramp checked by the gestapo had the proper credentials to be where they were.

Every time I've assisted my buddy at an airshow I was given airshow badging appropriate to what I was doing and where I could be.

So you didn't get your way when confronted by someone doing there job as they were instructed to do it... and that makes the CAP wrong ? lol

 

[N801BH]

I'm curious whether or not the people whining about being ramp checked by the gestapo had the proper credentials to be where they were.

Every time I've assisted my buddy at an airshow I was given airshow badging appropriate to what I was doing and where I could be.

So you didn't get your way when confronted by someone doing there job as they were instructed to do it... and that makes the CAP wrong ? lol

I (HAD) badging at the airshow I spoke about... The "pint sized gestapo" thought theirs were more important then mine.... There in lies the problem.

PS.. I don't whine either.

 

[DavidWhite]

I'm curious whether or not the people whining about being ramp checked by the gestapo had the proper credentials to be where they were.

Every time I've assisted my buddy at an airshow I was given airshow badging appropriate to what I was doing and where I could be.

So you didn't get your way when confronted by someone doing there job as they were instructed to do it... and that makes the CAP wrong ? lol

I don't like getting bossed around by a little 12 year old with bad acne and an superiority complex, especially when his eyes weren't on speaking terms.

 

[denverpilot]

I don't like getting bossed around by a little 12 year old with bad acne and an superiority complex, especially when his eyes weren't on speaking terms.

They could raise the price of a ticket and hire rent-a-cops, as one possible solution.

You'd get all the attitude you could handle from a cranky old retired guy with sore feet, and it'd cost ya more.

Winning!

Or... You could volunteer to stand there all day.

(At some shows FAA won't grant the airshow waiver without active crowd control in some areas. Shows reach out to volunteers. You can be one if you feel strongly that the kids shouldn't be doing it. No being a "whiner in the recliner"!)

Pretty sure you can handle a little disrespect from a free labor 12 year old, just trying to do his "job", buttercup.

Get over it.