Anyone Have Performance Numbers for a Bonanza A36?

[gismo]

This is a problem of not having a qualified instructor familiar with the airplane. If you just want a sign off and grab any instructor, you're not doing yourself nor the instructor any good. As pilot, you are not getting the quality of instruction you should want, and as an instructor your are not giving the student the quality of instruction he/she deserves.
As an instructor, you are possibly putting your certificates on the line should anything happen to the pilot resulting from the bad practices you are not correcting.

I've seen instructors teach landings in a C-172 at 80 KIAS when said instructor was very familiar with the airplane. I suppose one could say that means the CFI wasn't "qualified" making your statement still valid.

 

[dmccormack]

I've seen instructors teach landings in a C-172 at 80 KIAS when said instructor was very familiar with the airplane. I suppose one could say that means the CFI wasn't "qualified" making your statement still valid.

I'd contend landing a 172 fast is even harder than 1.2-1.3 Vso! It floats forever and you have to be quick on the pedals in any wind for much longer time as you eat up runway.

 

[wabower]

Found my A-36 POH/AFM, noted the following:

Graph 5-16, Stall Speeds, Idle Power

VSO at typical training weight of 3,200# (MGTOW 3,600) is 55 KIAS (58 KCAS). The speeds are a few knots slower at max weight due to interaction of CG and max available control deflection limited by elevator stop.

Page 4-3 Airspeeds for Safe Operation

Liftoff 70 KIAS
50' 80 KIAS
VY 96 KIAS
Landing Approach 76 KIAS
Balked Landing 76 KIAS

Graph 5-32 Landing Distance (Example)

Pressure Altitude 3,965'
Weight 3,422#
OAT 25C
Headwind 9 kt
Approach Speed 74 kias

Ground Roll 925'
Over 50' obstacle 1,700'

Max Cruise Speed, 75% power, 6,000' ISA

168 ktas, fuel flow gal. 15.2 This is the fastest book number for the airplane at any altitude on a standard day (ISA).

Based on these numbers, there is no apparent reason for the big numbers being tossed around. 100 KIAS appears to be sufficient for anything in the pattern, and then only for climb. What am I missing?

 

[John Collins]

Which means he's got to descend 200' and reduce speed by 65 knots to land. Is that what somebody thinks we should be teaching?

Wayne,

Normal approach speed in an A36 is 80 to 90 Kts. I don't advocate flying the approach at 120 Kts, but if you do, the speed reduction to normal approach speed is 30 to 40 Kts, not 65 Kts. The landing gear provides substantial drag and reducing power, the A36 decelerates relatively rapidly as compared to other aircraft. Some pilots don't reduce power until after the flare and as a result they use up to 5000 feet. I was merely pointing out what the airplane is capable of doing if you understand its performance options.

Regarding what one should be teaching, it is my opinion that a competent pilot is taught the options, and knows what control inputs will result in what performance. 120 Knots is too fast a speed to maintain to the runway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Which means he's got to descend 200' and reduce speed by 65 knots to land. Is that what somebody thinks we should be teaching?

I'm not a fan of unnecessarily high approach speeds, but the chances are it's not a big deal. We're talking ILS approaches that have runways designed for faster airplanes that will use up more runway than a 172 or a Comanche or a Bonanza slowing down to touchdown speed from a 120 KT approach. And even if not taught as the norm, a lot of CFIIs teach and pilots practice them for those situations in which an unacceptable response to "keep your speed up" or "can you give me 110?" or "what's your highest approach speed" will result in a delay getting to the runway.

 

[wabower]

I have been asked to maintain a specific airspeed to the marker, or to maintain maximum forward speed to some point, but can't remember being asked to maintain a higher speed than I wanted to fly while on the glideslope. Is this inconsistent with the experience of others?

I'm not a fan of unnecessarily high approach speeds, but the chances are it's not a big deal. We're talking ILS approaches that have runways designed for faster airplanes that will use up more runway than a 172 or a Comanche or a Bonanza slowing down to touchdown speed from a 120 KT approach. And even if not taught as the norm, a lot of CFIIs teach and pilots practice them for those situations in which an unacceptable response to "keep your speed up" or "can you give me 110?" or "what's your highest approach speed" will result in a delay getting to the runway.

 

[dmccormack]

I have been asked to maintain a specific airspeed to the marker, or to maintain maximum forward speed to some point, but can't remember being asked to maintain a higher speed than I wanted to fly while on the glideslope. Is this inconsistent with the experience of others?

The busiest airports I've flown into SEL in real IMC were TEB and CLT (which was 300' and 1 1/2 last time).

Last time I was at CLT I had a Hawker behind me. He was vectored through intercept for spacing.

I've been asked to "Keep my speed up," but never given a speed to maintain (I'll speculate it's because they don't have the numbers at their fingertips? "Hey Joe -- what's approach speed for a Bonanza?" "Ummm...")

 

[wabower]

My calculation was based on the differential between the quoted 120 kt. approach speed and VSO when it ostensibly quits flying. That's 65 knots.

I'm probably a bit over-sensitive to this issue because of the seeming propensity of Bo pilots (among others) to do everything too fast. Where do they learn that crap? From a number of years experience teaching in various Level C-D sims, the difference in 10 knots of unnecessary speed is significant in any airplane.

Common examples are to start the engine and leave the throttle at ~1,600. Then taxi at high power setting dragging the brakes, or taxi much too fast. Then overtake King Airs in the pattern and fly the approach 30-40 knots too fast.

I spend almost every day at Addison TX. At the airport, it's in a facility immediately adjacent to a highly-used taxiway. If I hear a single roaring up T/W Uniform, it will usually be a Bo or a Cirrus. At the Golden Bear golf training center about a half-mile north, the teeing area is almost underneath the flight path for R/W 15, so close I can easily see the numbers and call my friends. If I hear a single burning up the approach path (normally VFR) or glideslope, it will most likely be a Bo. The difference in speed and power is quite noticeable.

I fly with some owners and/or observe a number of airplanes with which I am familiar with the shop that maintains them. The mechanics just grin and replace/repair the tires, brakes, struts, bushings, etc. that seem to be more problematic on the high-speed planes. If an airplane that is flown only a few hundred hours per year needs a set of tires and brakes at each annual, no other questions regarding pilot technique are necessary.

Wayne,

Normal approach speed in an A36 is 80 to 90 Kts. I don't advocate flying the approach at 120 Kts, but if you do, the speed reduction to normal approach speed is 30 to 40 Kts, not 65 Kts. The landing gear provides substantial drag and reducing power, the A36 decelerates relatively rapidly as compared to other aircraft. Some pilots don't reduce power until after the flare and as a result they use up to 5000 feet. I was merely pointing out what the airplane is capable of doing if you understand its performance options.

Regarding what one should be teaching, it is my opinion that a competent pilot is taught the options, and knows what control inputs will result in what performance. 120 Knots is too fast a speed to maintain to the runway.

 

[gismo]

I have been asked to maintain a specific airspeed to the marker, or to maintain maximum forward speed to some point, but can't remember being asked to maintain a higher speed than I wanted to fly while on the glideslope. Is this inconsistent with the experience of others?

I've been asked to maintain a speed higher than my 152 Kt Vlo beyond the FAF more than once although I'd say it's pretty rare and you can always say "unable" if you're uncomfortable. Flying an approach that way is anything but "stabilized" but fairly easy if you have a long runway and some patience.

 

[dmccormack]

My calculation was based on the differential between the quoted 120 kt. approach speed and VSO when it ostensibly quits flying. That's 65 knots.

I'm probably a bit over-sensitive to this issue because of the seeming propensity of Bo pilots (among others) to do everything too fast. Where do they learn that crap? From a number of years experience teaching in various Level C-D sims, the difference in 10 knots of unnecessary speed is significant in any airplane.

Common examples are to start the engine and leave the throttle at ~1,600. Then taxi at high power setting dragging the brakes, or taxi much too fast. Then overtake King Airs in the pattern and fly the approach 30-40 knots too fast.

Oh boy....

Well, maybe it's the same few guys that happen to be flying Bonanzas?

I don't own one (though I plan to), but I cross the threshold at 65 in an A36.

I've flown an entire pattern at 70 just for grins.

 

[wabower]

Oh boy....

Well, maybe it's the same few guys that happen to be flying Bonanzas?

I don't own one (though I plan to), but I cross the threshold at 65 in an A36.

I've flown an entire pattern at 70 just for grins.

A required maneuver for my toads. You should see them squirm.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have been asked to maintain a specific airspeed to the marker, or to maintain maximum forward speed to some point, but can't remember being asked to maintain a higher speed than I wanted to fly while on the glideslope. Is this inconsistent with the experience of others?

I've been asked to maintain a certain speed or best forward speed on the glideslope as well as to the marker. At both ends. I've been asked not only how fast I could go to mix in with faster traffic, but to keep it below a certain speed to mix in with slower traffic.

But of course, ATC has no idea what speed I =want= to fly until they ask.