Anyone have any experience with U.S. Patents or the process?

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Sinnerman49

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Sinnerman
Hey folks -

Not sure if this is in the right forum or not.

I've worked as a lineman at local airports and FBOs for the past 4 years or so, and today an idea hit me for a tool that would be great for small FBOs, big FBOs and even individual aircraft owners. This is a tool that I could see the major pilot shops such as Sporty's or the like, carrying.

Unfortunately, I have NO clue where to start with this idea. I know I need to first find out the process for protecting my idea, and then move along with figuring out how to actually make it - but I don't know where to start. I'm hesitent to contact a Patent attorney, because I don't want to shovel over a ton of money without even having a proof of concept or anything.

Secondly, I'm not ENTIRELY sure that this device isn't patented yet - I've certainly never seen a device like this for sale (At least, in this application........). I tried to do a search at the patent office, but it seems like there are thousands of patents I'd have to wade through in order to be sure.

So I figure the ever-resourcefull aviation community is the place to go to look for help on this issue.

Anyone have any experience with the process?
Anyone have any experience in fabrication? - it's a small device, with minimal basic electronics.

If not - does anyone have a general direction to point me in? I'm hopelessly lost, but I really think this idea is a good one.


Thanks! Feel free to post or PM me.

`Lucas St.Laurent:fcross:
 
The little bit I understand is you first need to protect the originality of your idea as much as possible... determine a way to set a date to establish when you orginated the idea.

Then, a patent search would have to be done. None of this is cheap. You could probably begin a cursory search online but that won't be the end of what could be required.

Hopefully, the lawyers here can poke in soon and give you some insight.
 
The easiest way to "set a date", as Ken stated, is to sketch out your idea and mail it to yourself (keep a copy). When you receive your letter in the mail it will have been date stamped by the USPS. DO NOT open the envelope as this invalidate the date stamp.

I have done this for numerous copyrighted items I have developed for business on the advice of counsel and assume it may work for your needs. As always YMMV and if on-line counsel does not agree with my assessment, I reserve the right to rescind this post. :D
 
kevin47881 said:
The easiest way to "set a date", as Ken stated, is to sketch out your idea and mail it to yourself (keep a copy). When you receive your letter in the mail it will have been date stamped by the USPS. DO NOT open the envelope as this invalidate the date stamp.

I have done this for numerous copyrighted items I have developed for business on the advice of counsel and assume it may work for your needs. As always YMMV and if on-line counsel does not agree with my assessment, I reserve the right to rescind this post. :D
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You're exactly on the mark, Kev. Mail it, DO NOT open. The courts accept that as proof.

As for the patent search, you can do that effectively on-line. That will also allow you to search the entire world's patents, not just the U.S. Go to the U.S. Patent and Trademark site, dig around and follow instructions. You will probably need a Utility Patent, and the filing fee for that is $155.00. It so happens I'm in the middle of doing this myself, so have a little lead time on where you are. Let me know if I can help you in any way.
 
Just stay far, far, far, away from any inventor's helpline you see on TV or elsewhere. Their #1 mission is separate you from money.

Call your local bar association's referral service for a referral to patent lawyer.
 
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Kevin and Mike have given some good advice. My partner used to be a patent attorney before he joined or general law practice. I'd tll you that when you mail the letter make sure you mail it from the post office and pay them the 42 cents so they put their computer generated stamp on the envelope then when the mail it you will have it and the cancellation stamp over the postage stamp. Don't use an office postage meter as some can have the dates reset.

Now as for the patent appication. I agree with Mike. Hire a competent patent attorney. They will be able to assist you with the search and application. Patent application are very specific animals. Someone else could have the same type tool patented but if there is a unique aspect to your version it could also be patented. Just because someone patented a lawn mower dosent mean you can't patent your own version.

Best of luck.

Oh and Mike was really right when he said stay away from These companies that offer to market your patent for you. Your money will be sucked out of your wallet.
 
Ditto to what Adam said. When my partner and I were working on a patent, we did some initial research into prior art, and when nothing popped up, we invested in a patent attorney to do it right. It took a while, but eventually we got our patent.
 
all of this patent talk reminded me of Calvin and Hobbes and sent me on a 2 hour expedition to find this strip:

19881203.gif
 
@ Tony - great cartoon, brings me back to my childhood days of reading book after book of Calvin & Hobbs.

@ Everyone else - thanks a ton for all the advice. I will be contacting a patent attorney this week. I assume the only way to offset the costs of getting the patent is to actually market the design to someone?

Two other questions...

Regarding mailing myself a design - I'm HORRIBLE at sketching, and it looks like a 5 year old drew something. Is this acceptable or should I get schooled in the more systematic design process?

And finally, is there a point at which I can consider it safe to discuss my idea on these forums? I'm pretty confident that if this device existed, someone on this board would know about it.

Thanks again all!

Luke
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Two other questions...

Regarding mailing myself a design - I'm HORRIBLE at sketching, and it looks like a 5 year old drew something. Is this acceptable or should I get schooled in the more systematic design process?

And finally, is there a point at which I can consider it safe to discuss my idea on these forums? I'm pretty confident that if this device existed, someone on this board would know about it.
Click to expand...
Start with the best drawing you have for now. Mail it to yourself from the post office as suggested. Each time you have an improved drawing with more detail, repeat the process. Not only are you establish the earliest date you established the design but also a history of improving your design.

I would not discuss it. You want this to be as secretive as possible until the design is legally established with the patent office or other appropriate agency to protect your own interests. Even then, I think an attorney would suggest you keep it confidential until well into an established marketing program and production is established.
 
Thanks for the advice Ken.

Regarding the design - I have no experience in tool design, will I need to find a partner who can actually design this product, or is just having a basic idea suffice for a patent? I've heard a working mockup is practically a requirement.
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Thanks for the advice Ken.

Regarding the design - I have no experience in tool design, will I need to find a partner who can actually design this product, or is just having a basic idea suffice for a patent? I've heard a working mockup is practically a requirement.
Click to expand...

That's the kind of question you ask your patent lawyer.
 
I can use Autodesk Inventor (3D engineering program) well. I have it on my home computer. You probably don't want a student designing your invention though. :)
 
Since it appears your going to be seeing a patent attorney pretty soon. I'd just wait to ask him what to do. If you want to go ahead and mail your self something don't worry about how precise or artistic it is. You can also include a brief description of the item in teh mailing including its purpose. Don't be brining a partner in just because he/she can draw the tool better than you.
 
Ah well I don't care about money or anything, just what I can put on my resume when I'm looking for a job in a few years. Definitely get the thing patented before you get anybody to give you detailed help.

Good luck!
 
Yikes.

$600 for a professional patent search,
Bwtn $2-3000 for the rest of the patent process, including drawings.

That's quite depressing for a college student such as myself. It also seems like I'll have to partner with an engineer before I even begin the patent process in order to have exact designs of the equipment.
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Yikes.

$600 for a professional patent search,
Bwtn $2-3000 for the rest of the patent process, including drawings.

That's quite depressing for a college student such as myself. It also seems like I'll have to partner with an engineer before I even begin the patent process in order to have exact designs of the equipment.
Click to expand...
What have you done thus far to find similar ideas via the web?

If you do take on a partner, make sure of their trustworthiness. Look for references. Ask for a bond or some kind of policy, if that's possible.

I'd still exhaust all efforts on your own, doing a lot of footwork a patent attorney or staff would do.
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Hey folks -

Not sure if this is in the right forum or not.

I've worked as a lineman at local airports and FBOs for the past 4 years or so, and today an idea hit me for a tool that would be great for small FBOs, big FBOs and even individual aircraft owners. This is a tool that I could see the major pilot shops such as Sporty's or the like, carrying.

Unfortunately, I have NO clue where to start with this idea. I know I need to first find out the process for protecting my idea, and then move along with figuring out how to actually make it - but I don't know where to start. I'm hesitent to contact a Patent attorney, because I don't want to shovel over a ton of money without even having a proof of concept or anything.

Secondly, I'm not ENTIRELY sure that this device isn't patented yet - I've certainly never seen a device like this for sale (At least, in this application........). I tried to do a search at the patent office, but it seems like there are thousands of patents I'd have to wade through in order to be sure.

So I figure the ever-resourcefull aviation community is the place to go to look for help on this issue.

Anyone have any experience with the process?
Anyone have any experience in fabrication? - it's a small device, with minimal basic electronics.

If not - does anyone have a general direction to point me in? I'm hopelessly lost, but I really think this idea is a good one.


Thanks! Feel free to post or PM me.

`Lucas St.Laurent:fcross:
Click to expand...

Ok you got the info on how to secure a date of your invention so I will not have to go into that.

You now have a decision to make. Choice 1 do it yourself or Choice 2, pay someone who is an expert.

For choice 1:
Next up is to start your search for prior art. That is to see if there is any invention that already serves the same purpose.

So this is where you will go: http://patft.uspto.gov/

You this will take a lot of work to review I suggest you start to draw up and describe your patent. To describe it you need to become aware of all of the technical key words pertaining to your invention.

Once you have throughly searched the patent database you need to start the application process. You then need to again make a decision to do it yourself or pay and expert.

If you do it yourself you will need to become familiar with patent law. If you manage to stay awake in the learning process and do not put a bullet in your head, get your write up done. I suggest looking at similar products to get a feel for what the format and style will be.

Do not use an organization that talks about how it will make you rich. Go to this page, http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/howtopat.htm to do it yourself or pay for a real expert aka a patent attorney. They get paid the big bucks. Mostly because people who willingly go into this area have a very high suicide rate once they realize how mind numbingly boring this part of the law is.

The best part of this whole process is that it is hugely expensive, and is only for the US. So if you wish to defend your patent overseas you will get to file it in multiple countries!!! Which can only add to the cost. If you don't locally file you can hope that we have a treaty with that country to recognize the US patent and then you will only have to pay to litigate it by retaining a local attorney.

Once you get through all of the patent pitfalls and in 3-5 years actually get your patent issued then you can go about getting someone to build it for you. Of course they will probably not be interested in building it as they could easily just design around your IPR and have a higher margin.

Or they just ignore your IPR with the hope that you cannot afford to defend the patent.

My $.02 of advise on patents is that unless you have a big bank roll and this is a multi-million dollar patent, don't do it, you're wasting your money and time. Better to invest your money in getting the thing built and to market. The patent is not likely to stop any medium to large sized competitor from infringing on your idea.
 
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Wow. Scott - Amazing post, and extremely helpful.

So if I *dont* have a big bankroll (Which is true) and would never have the funds to defend an infringement anyway, should I just send myself the stuff I do to secure a date, or not even bother with that?

.....now, to figure out how to get someone to BUILD this little device......
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Wow. Scott - Amazing post, and extremely helpful.

So if I *dont* have a big bankroll (Which is true) and would never have the funds to defend an infringement anyway, should I just send myself the stuff I do to secure a date, or not even bother with that?

.....now, to figure out how to get someone to BUILD this little device......
Click to expand...

To Scott's point: many larger corporations (that have the bucks) patent everything they can in order to engage in mutual licensing with other companies. In other words, Company M might have the patent for decoding certain sequences of tones to control some electronic device. Company B might have a patent to encode the tones in a certain way. Company B needs Company M's patent to make a system, and vice-versa. So they may agree to a mutual licensing pact. (Overly simplified, but you get the idea).

There are also patent "banks" that buy patents, sit on them, and then swoop in after an infringing product is successful in order to garner large settlements. IIRC, the Blackberry lawsuit is one such deal.
 
wsuffa said:
To Scott's point: many larger corporations (that have the bucks) patent everything they can in order to engage in mutual licensing with other companies. In other words, Company M might have the patent for decoding certain sequences of tones to control some electronic device. Company B might have a patent to encode the tones in a certain way. Company B needs Company M's patent to make a system, and vice-versa. So they may agree to a mutual licensing pact. (Overly simplified, but you get the idea).
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Exactly.

This is how patents really are used these days.

The cost of IPR is such that sometimes when company A has to license IPR form their competitor, company B, company A will see less profit per unit sold as compared to company B. I see this happen a lot.

wsuffa said:
There are also patent "banks" that buy patents, sit on them, and then swoop in after an infringing product is successful in order to garner large settlements. IIRC, the Blackberry lawsuit is one such deal.
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Interdigital is such a patent bank. They make all of their money through licensing deals.

My favorite patent deal was in regard to the cellular technology GSM. This is what AT&T and T-Mobile use. The Europeans were the ones that developed the standard for how GSM would work. They only opened up the development of the technology standard to European based companies. Anyone joining the group that developed the standard sighed an IPR licensing agreement to exchange IPR using what is called RAND (Reasonable A Non-Discretionary) terms.

But since non-European companies were excluded from the process they did not sign such an agreement. When it became clear that in order to actually make a GSM cell phone or base station you needed some essential technology that was patented by a non-European company it cost those Euro-telecom companies BIG TIME!!
 
Sinnerman49 said:
Wow. Scott - Amazing post, and extremely helpful.

So if I *dont* have a big bankroll (Which is true) and would never have the funds to defend an infringement anyway, should I just send myself the stuff I do to secure a date, or not even bother with that?

.....now, to figure out how to get someone to BUILD this little device......
Click to expand...

There's not much point unless you expect to have money rolling in soon. IIRC you have a very limited time window to apply for a utility patent once your "invention" becomes public. And as Scott mentioned without the funds required to defend a patent in court, the patent itself is less than worthless as it discloses the otherwise "secrets" of your idea. There is one potential benefit of a patent for your situation and that's if you want to secure investor funding for the development or manufacturing of the device. Without patent protection or some substantial "trade secret" you would have a tougher time generating interest.

BTW, I don't know if you've thought this through, but coming up with a good idea is typically about 2% of the effort required to bring a successful product to market. Besides developing the idea into a manufacturable product, you will need some way to generate/identify/locate customers, set up production, distribution, and support for the product etc. I'm not trying to discourage you from the venture, just suggesting you take a good look at what's ahead before investing time and money.
 
I've heard the poor man's copyright (mail to yourself) will not hold up in court because of the easy of faking it....

I mean, how many of us opened our report cards before our parents got them? Hello steam!
 
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