Anyone ever flown for the Civil Air Patrol?

[DMD3.]

For anyone who has ever flown for the Civil Air Patrol, what is it like flying for them?

Will they let you fly on the days that fit your schedule? (In my case, it'd be Fridays and Saturdays)

How much does it cost to fly for them at first?

Also, are the fees you'd pay them tax-deductible?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Yeeha. Let the beatdown commence. Seriously it is all local, there are paperwork hoops to jump through at all CAP squadrons, but the flying all depends on how 'aligned' with your personality the local CAP squadron is. The only way to know is to go visit and meet everybody, nothing we can tell you will help you make a reasonable decision without visiting.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, I fly for CAP. I'm a Transport Mission Pilot, Mission Observer and Mission Scanner (plus a few base ratings).

There are some significant hoops to jump through. CAP is a big bureaucracy. But IMO it's worth it. Dry rates vary by wing (state), but are pretty reasonable (mine is $45/Hobbs hour). Air Force assigned missions are reimbursed, and this is explicitly allowed for private pilots (see 14 CFR 61.113(e)). Don't expect to just hop in and fly. It doesn't work that way. And if your goal is just to fly cheaply, it's not going to be worth it. Quite a bit of overhead and training. If the point really is to try to find lost aircraft and assist with natural disasters and other stuff, it's a lot more rewarding.

Visit your local squadron.

CAP is entirely volunteer, and will never force you to fly, ever. Even when in the air halfway to a search grid (RTB is an option for any crew member at any time). Having said that, if you expect all airplane crashes, floods, earthquakes, ELTs, etc. to go off only on Fridays and Saturdays, you might want to review your expectations.

Cadet programs do tend to happen on weekends, so if that's your thing, find a composite squadron and go to town. There is very little flying in that, except for orientation rides (and you'll need 200 hours PIC for that). Google the syllabus and you'll see what they do. I'm a bit short of that 200 hours, but I do plan on doing that when I pass the mark.

Where are you located? Some locales are more inviting than others.

Greg is right. You do have to visit. More than once.

 

[weilke]

For anyone who has ever flown for the Civil Air Patrol, what is it like flying for them?

Depends on the unit/wing.

Will they let you fly on the days that fit your schedule? (In my case, it'd be Fridays and Saturdays)

On your dime: anytime a plane is available
On CAPs or Air Force money: whenever they tell you.

How much does it cost to fly for them at first?

$40+13gph fuel for a 182. Doesnt get much cheaper.

Also, are the fees you'd pay them tax-deductible?

Uniform expenses and unreimbursed food&lodging during a search.

Dont do it for the taxes. Dont do it for the 'free flying'. Do it if you think the activity is worth your time.

Big differences between units. YMMV.

 

[MAKG1]

Uniform expenses and unreimbursed food&lodging during a search.

Contact your tax preparer, but it's more than that.

Unreimbursed transportation and other expenses to any CAP event. At least some training costs, provided they are required by CAP but not by other flying (e.g., Form 5).

Searches are exempt from local taxes, so you can get out of the usual 10% hotel tax with a CAPID, on Air Force assigned business.

CAP is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit.

Of course, next to no one does this stuff for the deduction. But it helps put a dent in the costs. Like the $250 flight suits some wings require.

 

[weilke]

Of course, next to no one does this stuff for the deduction. But it helps put a dent in the costs. Like the $250 flight suits some wings require.

The point is that flying for cap doesnt magically make your flying deductible. If you spend money to benefit cap, you dont pay tax on it. But you have to spend it first.

 

[petrolero]

MAKG said it well.

I flew with Colorado Wing (CO-162) as Mission Scanner, Observer and my specialties were Comm and Emergency Services. I served as Comm and ES officer for my squadron and my ICS postion was Comm Unit Leader and Mission Staff Assistant (a general helper at mission base).

It is not a flying club, there is a lot of bureaucracy and even when you do get to fly their aircraft, there are restrictions. You can't carry anyone but other CAP members with very few and rare exceptions. You can't leave your state in most cases without prior approval.

That said, if you join for the reasons MAKG mentioned, you may find it very rewarding. I did. I dropped out (for now) only because I had young babies at home. I expect to join back up at some point.

It is the USAF auxiliary. All-volunteer (do as much or as little as you wish), benevolent (no combat or direct LE) organization. They have three missions: Aerospace Education, Cadet Programs, and Emergency Services. Squadrons are Cadet (focused on cadet development - cadets are kids aged 12-18 mainly and up to 21), Senior (members over 18 only), or Composite - both.

Cadet squadrons are mostly parents who sign up to work with their kids on cadet stuff. Cadets who reach top levels in the program, all else being good, have a leg up on entry into USAFA. If they reach Cadet Colonel (Spaatz Award) - which is tough to do - they are a shoo in for the Academy. The CAP cadets are great kids and I was always impressed when I entered a room and they all snapped to attention and called me "sir". That kind of discipline and respect is as rare as a three-legged unicorn among kids.

On the ES Side, flying on missions requires going through a training process and typically involves starting as Mission Scanner (guy in the back seat looking out the window), the Mission Observer (planning the search part of the mission and also looking out the right-side window), then Mission Pilot (he flies the airplane and is the PIC). There is actually much more to know about each of these duties than one might think. Still, I think CAP's training process is too slow and (used to) lead to a lot of good people dropping out. I know COWG has finally started doing accelerated mission /flight training, which is great.

For those who don't wish to fly, CAP also has ground SAR and mission base specialties that follow the Federal incident command system used by pretty much every emergency response agency now.

As has been stated, Air Force assigned missions (actual searches and certain training events) are reimbursed. Flight training (under certain guidelines) is subsidized. There is no additional charge for instruction in CAP aircraft - that is considered volunteer work on the part of the instructor.

 

[DMD3.]

Of course, next to no one does this stuff for the deduction. But it helps put a dent in the costs. Like the $250 flight suits some wings require.

Oh I wasn't simply considering it for the deduction, but that only helps out with the cost even more.

 

[MAKG1]

I should mention that I've found myself doing a lot more flying, though mostly on my dime (and until recently on rental aircraft), and to much higher standards than the usual private pilot thing.

CAP expects much more precision than the usual private pilot "keep it in one piece" scenario. This is a good thing, IMO.

 

[ChrisK]

Keep in mind that you can't really do so much "punch holes in the sky" or "$100 hamburger" flying in CAP. You will be asked to fly certain proficiency profiles and to document what you did, even when you are paying (a reduced cost) for the aircraft. I am in CAP to give back to my community, and have been a member for much, much longer than I've been a pilot; even so, I do enjoy the benefit of flying for a "reduced rate". If I was going to go do some proficiency flying anyway, I certainly don't mind doing it in a well maintained and modern CAP aircraft.

I just try to make myself available to CAP when they require other types of flying or non-flying duties.

 

[airdale]

A few positives that I don't think have been mentioned:

• CAP flight instruction is free. Typically you will have at least an hour or two a year plus your "Form 5" check ride, which qualifies as a Flight Review.
• You can't train for a Private in CAP (although cadets can) but you can train for an Instrument rating and for a Commercial if a complex airplane is available. The catch is finding a CAP instructor who is willing to commit his unpaid time to you for this.
• In many places there are glider programs and with a PPL you can train for glider ratings as well. Cost is ridiculously low, a whole day with several dual or solo tows for under $100.

The big negative that has been mentioned but IMO cannot be overemphasized: It is a bureaucracy. At the volunteer levels, many of them want to feel powerful in exercising the authority of their positions. (Hence the advice that CAP varies a lot from squadron to squadron.) Over and above this, there is a national full-time staff whose main output is ever-increasing bureaucratic requirements, especially for pilots.

There is a lot of lip service to safety but at the bottom it is all just CYA. For example, squawk sheets were removed from the airplanes because of an incident in CA where an FAA ramp checker was given access to the squawk sheets and the airplane was judged to be unairworthy. So now we have no squawk sheets and less ability to determine whether the airplane is airworthy or not. Less safe, of course, but national asses are now covered.

I am constantly teetering on the edge of the "worth it/not worth it" decision. So far staying in.

 

[write-stuff]

I've flown with CAP for over 10 years and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. We have a good squadron, top of the line G1000 aircraft, and a very active Wing. To some degree you may need to be a self-starter, and you'll get out of it what you put into it.

 

[weilke]

The big negative that has been mentioned but IMO cannot be overemphasized: It is a bureaucracy. At the volunteer levels, many of them want to feel powerful in exercising the authority of their positions. (Hence the advice that CAP varies a lot from squadron to squadron.) Over and above this, there is a national full-time staff whose main output is ever-increasing bureaucratic requirements, especially for pilots.

There are steep differences between different cap wings, it correlates closely with the ratio of lawyers vs pilots in the wing ;-)

I have been member in two wings. Lets say, you want to have a sarex for members to advance their mission related qualifications.

This is how it works in wing 'A':
March: Super master above all training plan is generated by assistant associate wing training officer. Contains multiple training events and a 'plan' to create X number of new mission pilots.
May: Fractal order under super master above all training plan is issued to schedule a training event about a month out. There are strict requirements as to who can participate, if boxes x,y,z have not been filled by the right people, you can't even show up. There are required pre-meetings and signoff events, if you however show up for them, nobody really knows what needed to be done and how.
June: 2 days before the training event. Frantic emails buzzing around: Nobody has signed up, we need bodies, this is open for anyone, show up, ooh nooh. Btw. we dont have funding.
Evening before event: Not a single mission scheduled.
Day of event: After great confusion and with non-functional communications, a single mission is flown, but by the time the air-crew gets in the air, the ground teams have packed up and gone home.

This is how it works in wing 'B':
Tuesday: Hey peeps, aren't there some members who need quals signed off ? How about we use some state flying money to do a local sarex on saturday. The cadets will put together a ground team.
Friday: Showtime is 9am, bring a bagged lunch.
Saturday: Lots of flying, lots of training.

 

[MAKG1]

There is a lot of lip service to safety but at the bottom it is all just CYA. For example, squawk sheets were removed from the airplanes because of an incident in CA where an FAA ramp checker was given access to the squawk sheets and the airplane was judged to be unairworthy. So now we have no squawk sheets and less ability to determine whether the airplane is airworthy or not. Less safe, of course, but national asses are now covered.

All the squawks are available in WMIRS. Since you have to have access to that for a successful flight release, just how does that make it less safe? Are you afraid that someone will add a squawk to the airplane while you're in it?

CAP has more than its share of CYA, but that's a poor example. IMO, a much better one is the prohibition on simulated engine outs below 1000 AGL, or to demonstrate a power off 180 to cadets.

 

[airdale]

All the squawks are available in WMIRS. Since you have to have access to that for a successful flight release, just how does that make it less safe?

Well, all the squawks may well NOT be in WMIRS. (CAP computer system)

Having a squawk sheet in the airplane is immediate and reports are likely to happen. When the pilot gets around to doing the WMIRS computer worship necessary to close out his flight, maybe hours later, he may forget to enter the squawk.

In our wing we have been instructed to minimize squawks in order that the maintenance program does not look bad. The result of this was a 182 with flaps that wouldn't always go all the way down and a WMIRS squawk list that was completely silent on the subject. This went on for weeks. I knew about this and was planning to enter the squawk anyway after my Form 5 ride, but my check pilot pleaded with me to not do so because he was afraid of getting into trouble with the wing poobahs. He was a friend and I reluctantly agreed.

Finally, there is a period between my pre-flight computer worship and the flight itself. I have no way to know whether a squawk has been added during that period.

So no, your premise that having the squawks in WMIRS is adequate is simply false.

 

[skynewbie]

How much PIC time does one need to fly as a CAP pilot? I'm interested in becoming a CAP pilot.

 

[N801BH]

For anyone who has ever flown for the Civil Air Patrol, what is it like flying for them?

Will they let you fly on the days that fit your schedule? (In my case, it'd be Fridays and Saturdays)

How much does it cost to fly for them at first?

Also, are the fees you'd pay them tax-deductible?

NO Comment.............

 

[ClimbnSink]

NO Comment.............

C'mon someone has to start, almost twenty posts and all nicey nice talk. This can't stand much longer.

 

[JeffDG]

How much PIC time does one need to fly as a CAP pilot? I'm interested in becoming a CAP pilot.

There are multiple categories.

"VFR Pilot" (or IFR is qualified) is basically you've got a ticket. You need 100h TT to fly 182s and up, and some other planes have specific requirements too.

Transport Mission Pilots: 100h PIC + 50 h XC. You can fly ferry flights and communications relay missions reimbursed

Orientation Ride Pilot: 200h PIC. Fly cadet orientation rides, reimbursed

Mission Pilot: 175h PIC (trainee), 200h PIC fully qualified: You can fly just about any mission with this.

 

[MAKG1]

Well, all the squawks may well NOT be in WMIRS. (CAP computer system)

Having a squawk sheet in the airplane is immediate and reports are likely to happen. When the pilot gets around to doing the WMIRS computer worship necessary to close out his flight, maybe hours later, he may forget to enter the squawk.

In our wing we have been instructed to minimize squawks in order that the maintenance program does not look bad. The result of this was a 182 with flaps that wouldn't always go all the way down and a WMIRS squawk list that was completely silent on the subject. This went on for weeks. I knew about this and was planning to enter the squawk anyway after my Form 5 ride, but my check pilot pleaded with me to not do so because he was afraid of getting into trouble with the wing poobahs. He was a friend and I reluctantly agreed.

Finally, there is a period between my pre-flight computer worship and the flight itself. I have no way to know whether a squawk has been added during that period.

So no, your premise that having the squawks in WMIRS is adequate is simply false.

Your squadron has a serious safety issue completely unrelated to squawk sheets or WMIRS. Don't pretend it's universal. It isn't.

You would fly an airplane mainained by self-censorship? I wouldn't.

And the one time I got told to take it easy on squawks (not at CAP), the requestor got read the riot act and got his squawk anyway.

If you have a Wing memorandum asking you to minimize squawks, publish it.

 

[skynewbie]

Thanks Jeff, I'll get started with local CAP chapter.

 

[wanttaja]

Old Fogey time: I learned to fly as a CAP cadet, in the squadron Citabria. Later got checked out in other CAP aircraft, such as the L-16 (military Champ), L-18 (Super Cub), and L-19 (Bird Dog). Never got checked out in the CAP Ercoupe or the T-34.

I understand the aircraft selection is a lot more boring, nowaways....

Ronald J. Wanttaja, C/Col, Ret.

 

[Texastaildragger]

How much PIC time does one need to fly as a CAP pilot? I'm interested in becoming a CAP pilot.

100 PIC Transport Pilot
200 PIC Mission Pilot

 

[N801BH]

100 PIC Transport Pilot
200 PIC Mission Pilot

That is just log book hours...

You will still need to put in 500 hours of ass kissing, brown nosing and being "detuned" of all common sense..... IMHO.....

Enjoy the ride.....


Oh yeah.. Wait till you get to an airshow and a 11 year old CAP cadet tells you to get away from your plane.......

 

[James331]

Never got a chance to fly.

Just a bunch of adults trying to play air force.

Joined and ended up leaving after couple months, for how serious they like to pretend to be, I've found most highly un organized.

Most folks were odd to say the least, did make one good friend though.


I'd recommend the US Coast Guard Aux air.
More flying less BS

 

[MAKG1]

Old Fogey time: I learned to fly as a CAP cadet, in the squadron Citabria. Later got checked out in other CAP aircraft, such as the L-16 (military Champ), L-18 (Super Cub), and L-19 (Bird Dog). Never got checked out in the CAP Ercoupe or the T-34.

I understand the aircraft selection is a lot more boring, nowaways....

Ronald J. Wanttaja, C/Col, Ret.

That must have been fun.

Most of the aircraft out west are nice 182s with the occasional turbo 206 thrown in. I suspect they get a deal from Cessna, as CAP could easily own the largest Cessna fleet in the world.

The advantage is that you can rotate any crew into an available 182 as you reach duty limits.

 

[ChrisK]

That must have been fun.

Most of the aircraft out west are nice 182s with the occasional turbo 206 thrown in. I suspect they get a deal from Cessna, as CAP could easily own the largest Cessna fleet in the world.

CAP owns the largest fleet of single-engine piston aircraft in the nation, primarily Cessna 172s and 182s, and CAP pilots are able to fly those planes to perform CAP missions in service to their local communities.

I've always heard this, but I googled it just to be sure...

Not sure how they stack up globally. More googling required!

Edit - this web site claims that they have the biggest global fleet of Cessna aircraft.

 

[weilke]

Most of the aircraft out west are nice 182s with the occasional turbo 206 thrown in. I suspect they get a deal from Cessna, as CAP could easily own the largest Cessna fleet in the world.

I believe we do. For a while CAP was the largest customer for the non-turbo 182T.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I believe we do. For a while CAP was the largest customer for the non-turbo 182T.

Maybe CAP is responsible for the high cost of new Cessna singles.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Never got a chance to fly.

Just a bunch of adults trying to play air force.

Joined and ended up leaving after couple months, for how serious they like to pretend to be, I've found most highly un organized.

Most folks were odd to say the least, did make one good friend though.


I'd recommend the US Coast Guard Aux air.
More flying less BS

This seems to be my general consensus overall. Just put in my paperwork. Pretty good wing. Everyone seems fairly relaxed. Very nice 182T.

We'll see how it goes.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe CAP is responsible for the high cost of new Cessna singles.

Or kept Cessna alive longer. The deal was supposedly to placate a certain Kansas Senator, plus they needed aircraft anyway.

Most of the older vintage sat for years while the bureaucrats figured out how to auction them off (hint: it's a well documented process, but the timeframes from just the bureaucratic paperwork are measured in years), most parked outside as bird nests.

Luckily their engines were all timed out anyway, so the poor stewardship of your tax dollars really only destroyed paint and interiors.

The one here that I watched was perfectly flyable, solid engine at TBO, could have gone many years past TBO by all accounts, solid IFR package, but it got parked at the end of a hangar row with no shelter, and sat for three years. It went at auction for way too much money for how it had been abused.

 

[MAKG1]

This seems to be my general consensus overall. Just put in my paperwork. Pretty good wing. Everyone seems fairly relaxed. Very nice 182T.

We'll see how it goes.

To be honest, the wing (especially a really large one) isn't that relevant. You interactions will mainly be at the squadron level. Initially yours, then all the neighboring ones for emergency services training.

If it's a good bunch, it makes all the difference.

 

[weilke]

To be honest, the wing (especially a really large one) isn't that relevant. You interactions will mainly be at the squadron level. Initially yours, then all the neighboring ones for emergency services training.

If it's a good bunch, it makes all the difference.

The wing does make a difference, if you have hobby buerocrats at the wing and group level who add procedures to what is required from national. They do set the tone. Also, some wings have less of a mission than others.