Anyone buy a new plane?

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4RNB

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4RNB
Seems to be a number of horror stories related to plane expenses that could be corrected by buying the right first plane new or nearly new. I am searching this forum for stories of such, not yet found them. Has anyone done this?

Modern safety, avionics, reliability, and comfort seem to be favorable for going this route.

I get lots of advice on planes I am interested in, other than expense, none of the advice of things to worry about should be true buying new?

Thanks
 
Modern prices seem to be less favorable for going this route.
 
Buying new doesn't absent one from mechanical difficulties, and warranty service can be spotty. Moreover, buying new involves enormous depreciation.
 
Or if you have time, but a project plane , make it your own, it will be as good as new in lot less money. Takes a lot of time.

I agree, if you can afford one, go for it.
 
If you can manage to get a good, thorough pre-buy inspection on the used aircraft you’re looking to purchase, a lot of headache and buyers remorse can be greatly minimized. If you have the cabbage laying around to buy new, than definitely go that route!
 
If trying to buy new I think I’d investigate building then one of those ‘assist’(fast-track service). Yeah, an RV-10 would work.

Years ago looking at the new Archer at Oshkosh, I didn’t see much it could do that a 35 year old one couldn’t do. No matter what one buys, things crop up needing attention. Some is elective some not.
 
sourdough44 said:
...Years ago looking at the new Archer at Oshkosh, I didn’t see much it could do that a 35 year old one couldn’t do. No matter what one buys, things crop up needing attention. Some is elective some not.
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That's my sense of it also. A Cirrus may be made from different materials than an older design, such as a Bonanza, but the airframe itself isn't really all that much of an advance, in the way it flies, for the vast difference in $ expended.

One can take a sound older airframe, install a zero-time engine and new prop, paint it, upholster it and pack the panel with the latest in avionics and instrument technology, and have an airplane that is 80% or 90% of a new airplane capability for less than 40% of the cost. And one can spread that investment cost over several years by doing the various upgrades in stages.
 
Depreciation may eat up your strategic cost efficiency plan. You can do the math yourself for the more popular models that have been on the market for a bit. Just look up new prices, then find their older model’s prices.

Which model planes are you looking at?
 
I have not personally bought a new airplane (I have owned numerous used ones), but I am close friends with someone who has bought 6 new airplanes and numerous used ones. I fly and maintain all his planes so I am aware of the details of all of them.

It may sound obvious to some, but new airplanes are new and everything is in top shape. Used airplanes are in varying stages of being used up. Most of the used airplanes out there are pretty much fully depreciated, so the purchase price is quite low compared to new. The caveat is that they will likely need more work on an ongoing basis due to more parts being worn out than with the new planes.

Generally speaking, the required inspections on new and old airplanes are the same but the amount of work and replacement parts needed to keep the old plane airworthy is likely going to be higher than the new ones. There are some airframe and component limitations on newer airplanes that do not exist on older ones which may be considered burdensome to some folks but overall aren’t a big deal. There are some exceptions, but the annual inspection and necessary repairs on the old airplanes I maintain require more shop time and money than the new airplanes do. Eventually age and use will catch up with the new planes and things will equalize.

My advice would be to decide what type of airplane you want and buy the nicest version of it that you can afford, be it new or used.
 
4RNB said:
I get lots of advice on planes I am interested in, other than expense, none of the advice of things to worry about should be true buying new?
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FWIW: from a maintenance stand point new is new. For example, a new aircraft will have all the mandatory OEM SBs and a good portion of the optional SBs/SLs complied with at manufacture. You will also personally know the operational history of the aircraft from day one and control its wear and tear. And it will also come with a warranty. But it does not guarantee the new aircraft won’t break or eventually have the same issues as an older airframe does.

Where it becomes personally subjective is whether the cost for new is worth it. I had customers who only bought new, helicopters or fixed wing. Didn’t give me much work in the beginning as for the 1st couple years it was usually maintained at an OEM certified shop to keep the warranty solid. But regardless if you go new or used, I always recommend that you include the APIA who will maintain that “new” aircraft from the beginning of your research as they are the ones who can give you equally subjective input on your aircraft purchase plans.
 
I have had absolutely horrible luck with used cars, so I buy new and drive them in to the ground. But airplanes are a different animal. Sure, I’d rather buy a new one, but mechanically, your Beech/ Piper/ Cessna hasn’t changed much in the last 60 years and you can stuff some nice avionics in an older plane for a fraction of the cost of buying new.
 
sourdough44 said:
If trying to buy new I think I’d investigate building then one of those ‘assist’(fast-track service). Yeah, an RV-10 would work.
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I guess you could say I obtained a new plane as it was built from a kit. Took nearly three years but I had a plane to fly in the meantime and now I know this airplane inside and out. Building your own means you can do the needed inspections although having another set of eyes to go over it now and again is a great idea. Experimental can save significant money when it comes to avionics also.

But if building or experimental isn't your thing then do what the others suggested ... find the best example of what you want that you can afford and go flying!
 
I have purchased several used planes and one factory demonstrator.with today’s new airplane prices are just too high. There are plenty of used aircraft out there that have been well cared for. The used airplanes I have owned ,after a thorough pre purchase inspection have never given me a major problem.
 
I bought a lightly used factory demo Cirrus SR22 in 2003. Sold it 4 years later and didn’t take too bad a hit from depreciation.

in 2007 I bought my Sky Arrow new and still have it. It’s depreciated fairly little - this happens over a long enough time frame as new model prices continue to rise through the stratosphere. For example, a new Cirrus is roughly triple what I paid for mine in 2003, and a new Sky Arrow about double what I paid in 2007.

All the other planes I’ve owned over the years have been used - a variety of Citabrias, Grummans and a lone Cessna.
 
I bought a 1.5 year old Cirrus and owned it for 5-6 years with almost no MX other than oil changes and very light annuals. My second Cirrus was 3 years old when I bought it and had damage history prior to my owning it and was a bit of an MX hog (almost all of that was Continental's fault but I did also have Air conditioning issues).
 
I guess it depends on the plane you are considering. I could see an argument for choosing a new Cirrus, or Columbia as there really isn’t a competitive older airplane that can do the same things other than used airplanes of the same model. I really can’t see a point in buying a new 172 or Archer type as they haven’t changed all that much. You could buy an old 172 for 45k and completely redo everything in it and still come out cheaper.

As for a used vs new Cirrus, well you would really have to run the numbers and decide. You have a chute repack to consider as well as avionics upgrades and a turbo engine if that’s the route you are taking. It will almost always be cheaper to buy used and completely redo one but it will be a headache and more difficult to finance if you can’t pay cash.

If you look at slsa’s then I can see a strong argument for buying new. They don’t seem to depreciate much for the more popular models. When you can get an SLSA Bushcat for under 70k there isn’t much value to lose.
 
I bought a 40 year old plane but when I did it was after much study and looking at several specimens and talking to the owners and joining the type club. I did my own pre-buy and found a mechanic that would show me, watch me, come back and check my work. We did annuals together and upgraded as we went along. I don't think I would have been happy with a new plane and dealing with warranties and taking it to the authorized shop every time it needed work like I had to for the seat strap.
 
cgrab said:
dealing with warranties and taking it to the authorized shop every time it needed work like I had to for the seat strap.
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FYI: depending on the warranty policy there's no need to use an OEM shop for every discrepancy. The initial scheduled inspections yes as it keeps the paperwork streamlined and the work approved quicker. However, in most cases, outside the 100hr/annual there is little to fix with a new aircraft through the warranty period.;)
 
I have bought two.
A 172SP with 60 demo hours on it and a brand spanking new C182T.
Both were stellar airplanes and the warranty service was off the chain. Cessna killed the support.

I flew this pair of planes a combined 1150 hours...truth be told, I should have NEVER sold the 182.

Someone above mentioned depreciation...BOTH of these aircraft sell for more now than when I sold them...the 182 is selling for 30-50k more...I flew the 172 for 350 hours and sold it for 5k less than I paid for it. I flew the 182 for 800ish hours and sold it for 15k less than I bought it...not too shabby...
 
If i had endless cash to spend i doubt id buy a new plane, id buy lots of beutiful vintage craft though... the new stuff lacks the romance for me. But if ya got the dough and ya like glass- rock it out
 
If I were going this route I would either buy an LSA or build an experiemental.

You don't see many stories of buying new LSAs, if things are going right there isn't much to talk about.

I believe @Flocker bought new, and he loves his LSA. I can't remember the specifics of his, but a new RV-12 was around 125K last I checked and the Rotax 912 has a pretty good reputation for MX. There are many options out there for $125K or less, some even under $100k. Downsides, 2 seats, you have to watch the useful load, and no IMC.
 
MarkH said:
Downsides, 2 seats, you have to watch the useful load, and no IMC.
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No IMC in a light sport is not universally true. Check the limitations, from what I hear some are and some aren't. I know my friend's light sport Cub is approved for it.
 
mondtster said:
No IMC in a light sport is not universally true. Check the limitations, from what I hear some are and some aren't. I know my friend's light sport Cub is approved for it.
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A plane sold with an SLSA airworthiness certificate will not be able to fly into IMC under current ASTM standards.

http://www.flyrv12.com/slsa-ifr-operation-and-training/

There are options with EAB or ELSA certifications, but as delivered an SLSA will not be able to fly into IMC.

Bristol is (or was) using ELSA to do this:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/04/17/can-you-fly-ifr-in-an-lsa/
 
MarkH said:
There are options with EAB or ELSA certifications, but as delivered an SLSA will not be able to fly into IMC.
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As I said, I believe this changed. My friends cub is an S-LSA and I’m 99% certain the limitations allow IMC.
 
MarkH said:
I believe @Flocker bought new, and he loves his LSA. I can't remember the specifics of his, but a new RV-12 was around 125K last I checked and the Rotax 912 has a pretty good reputation for MX. There are many options out there for $125K or less, some even under $100k. Downsides, 2 seats, you have to watch the useful load, and no IMC.
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@4RNB, Mark is correct. Bought my LSA new in 2016. Over 900 hrs so far. (912iS) No regrets.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have had absolutely horrible luck with used cars, so I buy new and drive them in to the ground. But airplanes are a different animal. Sure, I’d rather buy a new one, but mechanically, your Beech/ Piper/ Cessna hasn’t changed much in the last 60 years and you can stuff some nice avionics in an older plane for a fraction of the cost of buying new.
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Dang. That can definitely be a bummer and an expensive mess to get out of.

So far we've done well with buying used. Really helped when we bought 3 cars in 30 days. :eek: I had my car 13 or 14 years from new and wanted to get a newer one, one of the kids had turned 16 and their private school was on the other side of Atlanta, so a car help, mostly with after school sports practice. Then an off-duty police officer ran a red light, in his personal car, and totaled my wife's minivan. I would have bought a one year newer BMW 328i convertible instead of the 328i Coupe, but it was another $8,500 and with getting three cars that was just a bit much. My wife was trying to talk me into it, but I was already getting the most expensive car of the three, so I declined.

I wanted a convertible again, so I sold the BMW and got a Mustang; I also wanted a manual transmission and couldn't find a newer BMW with that. Again, another used vehicle. Other than an issue with the AC it's been great. That issue was totally covered by warranty; bought it "certified pre-owned" which includes extra warranty coverage from Ford.

My next car will probably be an EV. Between the cost of the battery and how things are improving I'd rather buy new when I do that. Right now I'm leaning towards the Kia Niro EV, but we'll see how things shake out in the next year or two. Some reports say the 2021 model will have an 80 kWh battery instead of the current 64 kWh battery, which gets ~239 miles. My commute (when I do commute) is not far, and we tend to fly when we travel, so 200+ miles of range is more than enough for me.
 
rene86mx said:
How do you guys get demo airplanes? What's the secret handshake?
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In the case of Cirrus, you buy a a new one and lease it back to them for a certain period of time (typically 1 year). They then pay you for every hour they fly the plane (fairly well actually) and when the demo period ends, they give it a big annual, fix up anything that isn’t in top shape (including cosmetic work, paint etc if needed) and deliver your plane to you. For some self employed people there are also advantageous tax implications (I’m not self employed so I don’t know the details).

Not perfect for everyone but I know a lot of people who have done this with Cirrus and they seemed happy with the program.
 
RudyP said:
In the case of Cirrus, you buy a a new one and lease it back to them for a certain period of time (typically 1 year).
Click to expand...

That was not my deal in 2003. The plane had been used as a demo and was offered for sale with about 165 hours on it. I recall paying $330k when the same plane new was $369k.

It went back to Duluth for a going over. While there, it had a taxi accident where it had a prop strike. They installed a new prop and a new IO550N! Yes, the “accident history” might be a factor, but did not seem to play a big part when I sold in 2007.
 
Thanks for the comments.

Demo Cirrus interesting. Have not sat in one yet. I am a tall guy so need to sit in one.
Best thoughts shared I think are cheaper to buy used and put in new engine and gadgets!
LSA RV12 diagrams show 41" head room, sitting in my chair I am 39", likely too tight.
I was thinking 172 if they 400k-500K. 182 more better. I read there might be some Pipers as a good new starter plane.
So my dreaming shopping list to look at new: Cirrus, Piper, Cessna. Anything else?
 
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