Anybody use the Slick Start?

[Dav8or]

I have a Lycoming IO-360 and it has been getting progressively harder to start. Yesterday I couldn't get it to start at all. Trip scrubbed.

I plan to do the 500 hour inspection on my Slick magnetos before the next flight and I have not done any diagnostic at all yet. So yeah, a P lead could have fallen off or something. The point of this thread isn't to give me ideas on how to fix my plane, change to Bendix mags, your personal starting technique, or how great it is to have an experimental. The thread is about the Champion (previously Unison) Slick Start vibrator shower of sparks system.

My engine has never started all that great, particularly hot starts. I have developed a method that has served me well over the last 4 and half years, but it has never been stellar. I would love to have my plane start more like a car. Reliable, instant and predictable in all conditions. Since electronic ignition is out of the question, I'm wondering if the Slick Start will get me closer to car like starts?

Does it really work, or is it electric snake oil? Is there a noticeable difference, or just a little improvement. Anyone with before and after experience would be greatly helpful, but anyone that has direct knowledge of them would also be very helpful.

Thanks for your time on this!

 

[vintage cessna]

I have a Lycoming IO-360 and it has been getting progressively harder to start. Yesterday I couldn't get it to start at all. Trip scrubbed.

I plan to do the 500 hour inspection on my Slick magnetos before the next flight and I have not done any diagnostic at all yet. So yeah, a P lead could have fallen off or something. The point of this thread isn't to give me ideas on how to fix my plane, change to Bendix mags, your personal starting technique, or how great it is to have an experimental. The thread is about the Champion (previously Unison) Slick Start vibrator shower of sparks system.

My engine has never started all that great, particularly hot starts. I have developed a method that has served me well over the last 4 and half years, but it has never been stellar. I would love to have my plane start more like a car. Reliable, instant and predictable in all conditions. Since electronic ignition is out of the question, I'm wondering if the Slick Start will get me closer to car like starts?

Does it really work, or is it electric snake oil? Is there a noticeable difference, or just a little improvement. Anyone with before and after experience would be greatly helpful, but anyone that has direct knowledge of them would also be very helpful.

Thanks for your time on this!

Ok, try not to get annoyed with my answer, but the slick start may not do anything at all for you. I had the same problem. You mentioned two things, "progressively" harder, and " hot starts. I had everything checked and it was driving me crazy. I switched from Champion massive plugs, to Tempest fine wire, and no more problems with the initial start or hot starts. The Champions have had issues with the resistors but will test OK, you won't know they are bad unless the resistance is checked. The fine wire plugs won't foul like the massive. If the plugs are fouling, it will get progressively harder to start.The fine wire are much more expensive but will last longer.

 

[mondtster]

I flew an Arrow that had the Slick start box on it. I don't really think it started any easier than any other plane.

Assuming you're talking about a Mooney with a shower of sparks system, your starting vibrator may just be going bad. Can you hear it buzzing when you're cranking the engine? I've always felt that the SOS systems started pretty good when it was working correctly.

 

[vintage cessna]

I have a Lycoming IO-360 and it has been getting progressively harder to start. Yesterday I couldn't get it to start at all. Trip scrubbed.

I plan to do the 500 hour inspection on my Slick magnetos before the next flight and I have not done any diagnostic at all yet. So yeah, a P lead could have fallen off or something. The point of this thread isn't to give me ideas on how to fix my plane, change to Bendix mags, your personal starting technique, or how great it is to have an experimental. The thread is about the Champion (previously Unison) Slick Start vibrator shower of sparks system.

My engine has never started all that great, particularly hot starts. I have developed a method that has served me well over the last 4 and half years, but it has never been stellar. I would love to have my plane start more like a car. Reliable, instant and predictable in all conditions. Since electronic ignition is out of the question, I'm wondering if the Slick Start will get me closer to car like starts?

Does it really work, or is it electric snake oil? Is there a noticeable difference, or just a little improvement. Anyone with before and after experience would be greatly helpful, but anyone that has direct knowledge of them would also be very helpful.

Thanks for your time on this!

I know how you feel. Once I stopped for fuel and almost ran the battery down before it would finally start. I took the plane to three different mechanics . Two couldn't find anything wrong, one wanted to take the carburator off and send it out, which I rejected.

I began to think that my engine was just flawed. I eventually took it to an engine expert whose speciality was overhauling engines. He checked the mags and all that, and then removed the bottom plugs. The plugs didn't look bad to me, and I suppose other mechanics, but he said there was the problem. He suggested the fine wire plugs. I took his advice, and after 300 hours the thing starts the first time every time, hot or cold. What a relief. I know this is not what you were looking for, but it sounds like you are at the end of your rope like I was, and your problem sounds very familiar.

 

[txflyer]

I had to hand prop a guy with the slick start setup on our field not long ago.

He kept tapping on some electrical box mounted on the firewall before he gave up and asked me to prop it.

KISS.

 

[James331]

I had to hand prop a guy with the slick start setup on our field not long ago.

He kept tapping on some electrical box mounted on the firewall before he gave up and asked me to prop it.

KISS.

Yup.






Cough, cough, bendix, cough

 

[NavAir]

I'll second the suggestion to check/change your plugs. My IO-360 (with Slick Start) had started flawlessly for 11 years. 2 months after the annual (which included sending the Champion massive electrode plugs off for cleaning/gapping/testing), I began to have trouble starting. It ran great once started. Pulled the plugs and 5/8 were out of spec (high) for resistance and one was open!

A new set of Tempest fine wires solved the problem.

Steve

 

[vintage cessna]

I'll second the suggestion to check/change your plugs. My IO-360 (with Slick Start) had started flawlessly for 11 years. 2 months after the annual (which included sending the Champion massive electrode plugs off for cleaning/gapping/testing), I began to have trouble starting. It ran great once started. Pulled the plugs and 5/8 were out of spec (high) for resistance and one was open!

A new set of Tempest fine wires solved the problem.

Steve

Yeah, if no one has ever diagnosed the problem correctly, you start to think you are just saddled with a cranky engine. Then you start looking for other solutions to give your cranky engine some help. Initial start of the day was bad enough, hot starts were so difficult I dreaded stopping any where, an unacceptable condition. First mechanics I went to just said I wasn't starting the plane properly. Took about 15 minutes for that last mechanic I went to to figure it out.

 

[bgdriveway]

How old are your plugs? If they are more than 300 hrs and are the massive electrode type, that's a good place to start. I was flying, or rather getting ready to go fly, a Navajo, couldn't get the RH engine started. We did everything to get it to start. Gave up, next day I put new plugs in it. No problems starting. That was the only change. One place I worked would replace the plugs in the C206 every 400 hrs.

Depending on what kind of maintenance has happened (or not) it's also possible the retard points have worn/ gone out of adjustment. I'm more familiar with the Bendix system, but I have seen a number that were hard to start, pull the mag, adjust the retard breaker as per the MM, and the thing starts right up.

 

[philiplane]

Bendix mags with impulse couplings and Tempest fine wire plugs will cure it.

You're going to throw away $1000 anyway on a 500 hour on the Slicks, and you will still have Slicks.

And if you have Champion plugs older than June of 2014, those are a guaranteed failure point.

 

[weirdjim]

So yeah, a P lead could have fallen off or something.

If the p lead falls off, the mag(s) will be HOT all the time, not dead.


Jim

 

[Bonanza]

I had the same problem as the OP. Tried everything including the slick start (which I still have) and still had the problem. It really didn't make any difference. Hot starts were the worst. I got stuck so many times with a flat battery it took all the joy out of flying. I used to carry a set of jumpers and flag down a passing car to get me going. I did exactly what the POH said but it didn't help. I tried the three hand tango, I tried mixture lean and mixture rich, throttle cracked and way open, everything I could think of. I became convinced I just had a lousy engine.
Then I met a gnarly old Bonanza pilot back home in NZ who told me what I was doing wrong. Since that day I have had perfect starts every time.
I was so overjoyed at my discovery I posted the 'secret' - I think this was back in the days of the yellow board - and got shot down in flames. I remember that Ron Levy told me I was an engine fire waiting to happen. Everyone from Tom and Bruce chimed in and told me I was an idiot and to make sure my insurance was up to date. Many years later I am still starting first time, every time, hot or cold. I've probably used the technique in over twenty makes and models.
I just don't share how I do it any more.
So if you want the answer, ask Ron. It's so easy and works for any engine - injected engines especially. But when you uncover the 'secret' don't share it, it isn't worth the abuse.
Stephen.

 

[yetti]

It probably won't start if the shower of sparks is bad. Which could be your ignition switch or the Shower of sparks. There are two different ways the SS comes on. Sometimes with the turn. sometimes with the push of the switch.
Start with SS diagnosis.

Are you doing this for starting?
Master switch on






· Throttle, prop and mixture controls full forward




· Boost pump on 5 seconds





· Mixture to idle cutoff






· Throttle reduced to the approximate position for a 1000-1100 idle speed


· Engage starter






· When the engine fires, release starter key and firmly (but not rapidly) move mixture control to full rich · After engine is running, lean mixture control out for smooth idle



Shutdown

 

[jsstevens]

[RANT] I've read three posts so far that are telling the OP what could be wrong with his Shower of Sparks. Folks, READ THE POST! He doesn't HAVE a shower of Sparks system, he wants to know if one would help him.[/RANT]

Carry on.

John

 

[vintage cessna]

I'll second the suggestion to check/change your plugs. My IO-360 (with Slick Start) had started flawlessly for 11 years. 2 months after the annual (which included sending the Champion massive electrode plugs off for cleaning/gapping/testing), I began to have trouble starting. It ran great once started. Pulled the plugs and 5/8 were out of spec (high) for resistance and one was open!

A new set of Tempest fine wires solved the problem.

Steve

I noticed a bit of reduction of fuel consumption when I switched. Appeared to be about .3 to .4 GPH. Did you notice a reduction of fuel consumption or is that just my imagination?

 

[Dav8or]

[RANT] I've read three posts so far that are telling the OP what could be wrong with his Shower of Sparks. Folks, READ THE POST! He doesn't HAVE a shower of Sparks system, he wants to know if one would help him.[/RANT]

Carry on.

John

No worries. People often don't bother to read the OP and just jump in. What I have learned so far is not many have any actual experience with the device and the very few that do seem indifferent to it. However, "11 years of flawless starting" sounds pretty good to me.

To those that actually own a Slick Start, a few questions-

• How many blades does it take to start your engine?
• If you think there is a benefit to the device, by what percentage would you estimate the improvement?
• Would you consider removing it for the sake of simplicity?

I'm just trying to get at, does the device work and does the device help? Only people that own one can possibly answer this question. I am fully aware that thousands of planes out there fly just fine without it and it is not needed, but is it an improvement.

Watch this video demonstration of the spark. Please be warned that this video is terrible and painful to watch. Skip ahead to 7:28 to see the actual demonstration.

That spark strength and duration seems to me that it would really help.

 

[mondtster]

To those that actually own a Slick Start, a few questions-

• How many blades does it take to start your engine?
• If you think there is a benefit to the device, by what percentage would you estimate the improvement?
• Would you consider removing it for the sake of simplicity?

I'm just trying to get at, does the device work and does the device help? Only people that own one can possibly answer this question. I am fully aware that thousands of planes out there fly just fine without it and it is not needed, but is it an improvement.

I can not tell you about the system from an owner's perspective, but I can tell you about it from a mechanic's and pilot's perspective. As I mentioned before, I maintained and flew an Arrow with the system on it for several years. So, to answer your questions:

1. When I started the Arrow I could always have it running within a few blades worth of cranking. Most other people could do it too but some lacked a good starting technique.

2. The system likely offers a benefit but I really couldn't tell you how much of one. I really don't feel like the Arrow I was familiar with started any better than any normal IO-360.

3. I wouldn't consider removing the system unless it was failing. I probably wouldn't bother putting the system on another airplane unless it was a customer request though.


That said, I still think you should spend your time and money maintaining your current ignition system before you bother adding a new box.

 

[tyndall]

The point of this thread isn't to give me ideas on how to fix my plane, change to Bendix mags, your personal starting technique, or how great it is to have an experimental. The thread is about the Champion (previously Unison) Slick Start vibrator shower of sparks system.

So you don't want to fix the problem, you just want to know if you should throw money at it to cover it up. Gotcha.

I've got boxes of failed Slick Starts, don't know anyone that is currently using one, and haven't sold one in probably a decade due to absolutely no demand which is because they are useless.

Now if someone other than you, because you don't want to fix the problem, had the same issue, they should check their impulse coupling. Most likely it is skipping. Slick mags are crap, and every year they are making them worse. 50% won't pass their first inspection without needing a prohibitively expensive part. If it is skipping, it is just as likely to be the body as the coupling itself. This is assuming that none of the cheap plastic parts inside haven't worn out or the coil tab is worn through.

 

[Bonanza]

How many blades does it take to start your engine?

Depends on if it is hot or cold. If it is cold it starts in one turn or less. If it is hot it will take several.

If you think there is a benefit to the device, by what percentage would you estimate the improvement?

Pretty close to zero.

Would you consider removing it for the sake of simplicity?

No, it is no worse than before so I wouldn't spend the money taking it out. Would I buy another one? - Probably not.

I'm just trying to get at, does the device work and does the device help?

No, I don't think it helps much at all.
BUT... you can learn to start any engine any time with or without a Slick Start. Just don't always trust the POH.
Stephen.

 

[Henning]

I had the same problem as the OP. Tried everything including the slick start (which I still have) and still had the problem. It really didn't make any difference. Hot starts were the worst. I got stuck so many times with a flat battery it took all the joy out of flying. I used to carry a set of jumpers and flag down a passing car to get me going. I did exactly what the POH said but it didn't help. I tried the three hand tango, I tried mixture lean and mixture rich, throttle cracked and way open, everything I could think of. I became convinced I just had a lousy engine.
Then I met a gnarly old Bonanza pilot back home in NZ who told me what I was doing wrong. Since that day I have had perfect starts every time.
I was so overjoyed at my discovery I posted the 'secret' - I think this was back in the days of the yellow board - and got shot down in flames. I remember that Ron Levy told me I was an engine fire waiting to happen. Everyone from Tom and Bruce chimed in and told me I was an idiot and to make sure my insurance was up to date. Many years later I am still starting first time, every time, hot or cold. I've probably used the technique in over twenty makes and models.
I just don't share how I do it any more.
So if you want the answer, ask Ron. It's so easy and works for any engine - injected engines especially. But when you uncover the 'secret' don't share it, it isn't worth the abuse.
Stephen.

Is your method "throttle and mix full, high boost to full pressure then 1,2,3,4, off, throttle cracked, mixture lean idle, mags hot and crank"?

 

[Bonanza]

Is your method "throttle and mix full, high boost to full pressure then 1,2,3,4, off, throttle cracked, mixture lean idle, mags hot and crank"?

No, that is the "three hand tango" I was talking about. You should know that that is not very reliable. You have got to achieve the stoichiometric ratio and a fixed or rigid method will not do that every time.
More of "create a known rich mixture situation and then do what is necessary to deal with it".
I am not a great fan of "do this in this order - count to 4 - throttle open 1/4", say the magic words, wave a wand etc etc". Engine start checklists are for those who do not know how to think about a problem and apply intelligence and experience to solve it. Every situation is different. Understand what is happening inside the engine and then apply your knowledge and experience to make it work for you.
A rich start carries an extremely remote risk of an engine fire - I have not had one in the 20 or more years I have been doing it - but it is a known condition and from that condition you can start the engine every time. It may take a few more turns of the starter and you may have to work the throttle a bit but the engine will start. That is unless your plugs are shot or your mags are out of limits or you have dirt and oil on the plug leads causing tracking or ........
Even then you will have a better than average chance of getting the donkey moving.
Stephen.

 

[Dav8or]

Depends on if it is hot or cold. If it is cold it starts in one turn or less. If it is hot it will take several.

Pretty close to zero.

No, it is no worse than before so I wouldn't spend the money taking it out.

Would I buy another one? - Probably not.

No, I don't think it helps much at all.

Thank you! This is the sort of info I'm looking for!

 

[Dav8or]

I can not tell you about the system from an owner's perspective, but I can tell you about it from a mechanic's and pilot's perspective. As I mentioned before, I maintained and flew an Arrow with the system on it for several years. So, to answer your questions:

1. When I started the Arrow I could always have it running within a few blades worth of cranking. Most other people could do it too but some lacked a good starting technique.

2. The system likely offers a benefit but I really couldn't tell you how much of one. I really don't feel like the Arrow I was familiar with started any better than any normal IO-360.

3. I wouldn't consider removing the system unless it was failing. I probably wouldn't bother putting the system on another airplane unless it was a customer request though.

Thank you. This is helpful too!

 

[Henning]

Basically my method is a 'rich start' even on a hot start. If the weather cold, I'll add more fuel, but I never change my mixture after I set it to idle and I never change the throttle until I get some kind of action. Basically all I'm doing is giving it a good prime and setting it to run about 1200-1400 rpm if I don't touch the throttle after it starts and clears. I've been starting FI continentals this way since I was shown how nearly 30 years ago, and I pretty much have them started in three blades regardless of condition.


1340s I'd prime 4 blades with the wobble pump then kick in the mags, and work the mixture and throttle as it caught, that is the three handed jerk off.

 

[Bonanza36]

I had to hand prop a guy with the slick start setup on our field not long ago.

He kept tapping on some electrical box mounted on the firewall before he gave up and asked me to prop it.

KISS.

He should have checked the SS unit to make sure the fuse was not burned out.

I have been very pleased with the installation of my SS. Several IAs I knopw if use it on their own planes, especially big bore Lycs.

The unit has made a big difference on hot starting my IO -550B. We sent both mags out , cleaned and gapped the plugs and set the timing, all to no avail.

The SS unit solved the problem completely.

 

[Dav8or]

He should have checked the SS unit to make sure the fuse was not burned out.

I have been very pleased with the installation of my SS. Several IAs I knopw if use it on their own planes, especially big bore Lycs.

The unit has made a big difference on hot starting my IO -550B. We sent both mags out , cleaned and gapped the plugs and set the timing, all to no avail.

The SS unit solved the problem completely.

Good to know. Thanks for the input. Keep 'em coming you lurkers out there!

As to the Slick Start failing I have this idea. I have mags with an impulse coupler and I read the install manual for the Slick Start. It makes no mention of disconnecting, disabling, or removing the original impulse coupler. Instead, it sounds like the Slick Start just piggy backs on top. So besides a nice spark for starting, it would seem that you would in this case have starting redundancy. If the Slick Start fails, you still have the impulse coupler. If the impulse coupler fails, you have the Slick Start. Am I missing something? Does it not work that way?

 

[txflyer]

Good ol' carb'd 470 has never let me down. Starts every time. Hot or cold. Old Bendix mags.

 

[charlie]

My Twin Comanche was often difficult to hot start both engines before running the battery down. Installed Slick starts most of 20 years ago and they worked well. My 180 HP Warrior could also be a bear to start so we put one on it ten years or so ago. Has always started on about the third blade. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

 

[Dav8or]

My Twin Comanche was often difficult to hot start both engines before running the battery down. Installed Slick starts most of 20 years ago and they worked well. My 180 HP Warrior could also be a bear to start so we put one on it ten years or so ago. Has always started on about the third blade. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

Good to know. Sounds like they worked out well for you. I know you're a mechanic with a great reputation, so in your experience have you seen a lot of failures of the Slick Start? Another mechanic in this thread claimed to have boxes of dead Slick Starts. Just wondering if they are unreliable.

 

[jesse]

I used to fly a plane quite a bit with an IO-470. It wouldn't fire UNTIL the key was out of the START position. That thing was an absolute ***** to hot start. It was finally fixed, thankfully, but was tolerated for a solid year that way.

Of course the above isn't answering your question...

You can dump money into the wrong thing if you want, though I think you'll be disappointed.... Without knowing how you're trying to start it and what condition your spark plugs in it's hard to give you an answer.

 

[charlie]

Good to know. Sounds like they worked out well for you. I know you're a mechanic with a great reputation, so in your experience have you seen a lot of failures of the Slick Start? Another mechanic in this thread claimed to have boxes of dead Slick Starts. Just wondering if they are unreliable.

I have never experienced or heard of a failed quickstart!

 

[SCCutler]

I have never experienced or heard of a failed quickstart!

Charlie, the failures of which I have heard have actually been related to the ignition switch, and not the starter vibrator itself. Jesse alluded to such an occurrence above, and the symptoms are perfect for the situation I have heard about.

As I understand it, when you turn the key to "start," the ignition switch grounds out the p-leads for the regular mag points, expecting only the Slick Start (by whatever name) to operate, delivering its presumptively-awesome starting spark. If, for some reason, the system is akimbo (the starter vibrator not doing its mojo as directed, or the ignition switch failing to give the vibratory its marching orders), then the engine never starts while being cranked, but might catch if/when you release the key from start right when a mag is ready to deliver a spark based upon momentum. Not a recipe for success, or for starter longevity, is it!?

 

[Bonanza36]

Charlie, the failures of which I have heard have actually been related to the ignition switch, and not the starter vibrator itself. Jesse alluded to such an occurrence above, and the symptoms are perfect for the situation I have heard about.

As I understand it, when you turn the key to "start," the ignition switch grounds out the p-leads for the regular mag points, expecting only the Slick Start (by whatever name) to operate, delivering its presumptively-awesome starting spark. If, for some reason, the system is akimbo (the starter vibrator not doing its mojo as directed, or the ignition switch failing to give the vibratory its marching orders), then the engine never starts while being cranked, but might catch if/when you release the key from start right when a mag is ready to deliver a spark based upon momentum. Not a recipe for success, or for starter longevity, is it!?

My understanding is that when the starter is engaged, only one P-lead is normally grounded. Adding a Slick Start would not ground the second mag, but would augment it.

To the other poster, that is why sometimes an engine will not start until the starter is disengaged, so that both mags are firing at that point. With the starter engaged only one mag is firing.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

My understanding is that when the starter is engaged, only one P-lead is normally grounded. Adding a Slick Start would not ground the second mag, but would augment it.

To the other poster, that is why sometimes an engine will not start until the starter is disengaged, so that both mags are firing at that point. With the starter engaged only one mag is firing.

The slick start can be used with both retard mags and impulse coupled mags. In the retard mag instance, the ignition switch grounds both the left primary points and right p-lead, but the retard points open and fire the left mag using voltage from the slick start to excite the ignition. When the start switch is released, both p-leads are ungrounded and the voltage is removed from the slick start box, and normal mag timing returns.

With impulse coupling installations, the right mag is grounded and the slick start magic goes directly to the left mag capacitor, so it is in addition to the accelerated rotation provided to the mag from the impulse coupling. In this instance the juice to the slick start box comes from a tap on the starter solenoid. When the starter is disengaged, so is the slick start.

I have an SOS system, and looked seriously at the slickstart, but opted not to go that route. The switch is the weak link, but is subject to periodic inspection by AD.

 

[Henning]

It'll be nice when we finally get to use coil/plug electronic systems with redundant processors. Just put a coil on each plug and be able to provide it timing and power from redundant sources. These systems are efficient enough an emergency battery will still get you down safely from most non oceanic routes. With a glass panel you replace the vac pump with another alternator so you have two sources plus emergency battery.