Any tips on steep turns?

You realize that the above was taken on the ground. If one uses the plains vs foothills as a horizon they'd be scraping a wing tip.
 
BTW, I have nothing to add regarding trim vs no trim other than if you don't trim, planting your elbow on the armrest helps with the lack of trim.
 
I'll throw a few more cents into the pool here. In the perfect steep turn, the elevator doesn't move, and the bank is exactly 50 degrees, and power bumps just a bit for airspeed. Locked in, it all works great enough to hit yer own wake.

What hasn't been supported so far, unless I didn't read everything, is what to do with one's rudder, aileron and elevator (somewhat). I don't think it has been mentioned that most aeroplanes have a tendency to overbank past 45ish degrees, and therefore opposite aileron is required. Subsequently, the rudder is needed to keep it all coordinated. Adverse yaw is increased with the opposite aileron, therefore the turn will most likely require rudder into the turn to keep it coordinated. We all can use more rudder in our lives.

Roll into the bank, establish the *outside sight picture to establish the bank and attitude, and *lock in the elevator and opposite aileron. Mess with the trim to your hearts delight, but use some muscle and life will be simpler. Less variables and all since a bunch of time will be taken by adjusting trim instead of nailing the attitude. Since the ACS says that there is a + - 5 degrees, use that to adjust the altitude. 1 or two degrees will change the lift vector plenty to stop and reverse the altitude trend. Descending? Let up on the rudder pressure just a tad to unroll a degree or two and recapture your altitude. Remember to roll back into the established bank with rudder pressure once the altitude is regained, so as not to trend the other way. Climbing? Add a degree or two of bank to reduce the lift vector away from up and let it come down a few feet. Unroll again with reducing rudder pressure. Might need to back it up with a tad of aileron, but less than one would think.

Change up the elevator pressure and or the aileron pressure to correct for altitude is inviting many more variables to combat and cause the WTFs. Practice steepish turns with just locking in the bank and attitude without much care for the bank angle to get a feel for this technique if you want.

Now, before everyone freaks the hell out by saying, "using rudder will spin your plane" or whatever... Take close note that I stated rudder pressure, pressure, pressure. NOT movement. A nice trick that seems to be rare since the integration of instruments to basic flight is to lock in the elevator back pressure, and opposite aileron in the steep turn and look the f outta the plane! Think of the steep turn as a new neutral and fine tuning with rudder alone. (No, it won't get so uncoordinated that it'll spin, or even move the ball much enough to notice)

More tricks, the decent can be heard before the altimeter starts moving by listening to the airplane start to accelerate. Opposite if it starts to climb. Also, coordination is felt in your butt, seat of the pants, and the ball will become secondary to your butt.

Maybe just do what your CFI says. Flame suit donned.

This aways helps:
 
asicer said:
Head out the window 90-95% of the time, look for a landmark to roll out on, keep the spinner on the horizon, listen for RPM changes, adjust altitude with bank angle and find a spot on the armrest to plant your elbow.
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^^^^ This ^^^^

As others have said, you should be adding power in a steep turn, and using trim helps, but the biggest problem low time students have is spending too much time inside chasing instruments. Keep your head outside, learn what the sight picture looks like, hold it and then quickly verify with alt. Don't get hung up on the VSI.

PJ
 
Timbeck2 said:
What is this "horizon" you guys keep mentioning? Mine looks like this.

1200px-Santa_Rita_Mountains_Arizona_2013.jpg
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Might be a bit low for steep turns? ;)

In all seriousness, I can't echo the previous advice loudly enough to the OP re/ look OUTSIDE, get the sight pictures (left and right turns, as already mentioned, are different), and glance at the altimeter about 5% of the time. My turns were awful at first because i had that reversed...attitude indicator, altimeter, attitude idicator, turn coordinator, AI, VSI...oh crap, what's haopening!?,.... look outside briefly...oh, that!.?..then back to the instruments to screw up more.

For me, steep turns were really the first step in learning how to develop and prioritize a scan for IFR training, except for a VFR steep turn, your "home base" primary instrument is the view outside your windscreen, and NOT on the panel.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You realize that the above was taken on the ground. If one uses the plains vs foothills as a horizon they'd be scraping a wing tip.
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'Twas a joke....I'll be here all week...try the veal!
 
Dan Thomas said:
Shouldn't need trim in a little thing like a 172. Someday you might need to avoid a midair and you ain't gonna have time for any trim. Besides, up trim just makes the altitude gain on recovery much more likely. Just practice, like I taught my students. Stop flying with trim. Trim is to make flying easier for longer maneuvers like climb, cruise and descent. If you add full power as you roll into the bank, as you should be to maintain the airspeed, the power will help reduce the elevator pressure.

Right steep turns are harder than left due to the gyroscopic precession of the prop. You need more back pressure.

We've been spoiled by power steering and such. We detest physical effort. Learn to deal with it.
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Shouldnt need it but that doesnt mean trim isnt entirely useless. I also dont know about you but I dont use full power in steep turns. I usually find an extra 100-200rpm translates into enough power for the steep turn. More than that and you're likely to climb or gain speed both of which are evaluated as part of the ACS and the airspeed in particular can create more problems since you'll be going faster and therefore pulling more g's, you're setting yourself up for the possibility of an accelerated stall.

Though I recognize the value of trim, for me, I'm a no trim kind of person. Trim does work and its a lot less work while in the maneuver but you need to be prepared to manage the transition to the opposite direction and the final rollout which is going to have a greater nose-up/ballooning tendency due to the trim changg.

You are also creating more work for yourself in the long run too. While it does take more physical effort to not use trim in the turn as you need to hold more back pressure and be more aware of altitude/airspeed but you are creating more work for yourself when the maneuver is complete. I look at steep turns (and any turn really) as an "upset" since its not straight and level, its not something I am EVER likely to maintain for an extended period so why am I going to trim for it? Especially since I spent all that time getting my airplane nicely trimmed out for a known level flight, airspeed and power setting... When the maneuver is complete, I just level the wings, reset my power and I'm right back into level flight and ready for the next maneuver.
 
Travel360 said:
I'm about 19 hours into my PPL, and having some trouble with steep turns. I tend to either lose or gain altitude in them. I also find them a little bit disorienting.
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If you are overcorrecting gaining and losing altitude, you will get disoriented. Trust me I was there at one point. Take your time and get the aircraft slowed down, stabilized and in trim before starting the maneuver. Never get rushing into a maneuver.

You didn't say what airplane you are training in. If you are struggling with the outside reference, perhaps because your aircraft is lacking in something like a rivet line, seam or the like (e.g. composite aircraft) you will want to glance at the attitude indicator in your scan. Definitely avoid the chasing the VSI given it lags. If you were using the VSI it explains a lot.
 
Travel360 said:
I'm about 19 hours into my PPL, and having some trouble with steep turns. I tend to either lose or gain altitude in them. I also find them a little bit disorienting.
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Trim, trim, trim. And then trim some more.

Seriously, if you're losing altitude, ease off the bank a little bit until you correct. I find a few shots of trim before rolling in helps with the.
 
Some pretty weird and incorrect advice here...

Left and right steep turns are treated identically and the visual reference point is the same. Always trim for changes in speed, power and G loading.

Don't overthink it...
 
IK04 said:
Some pretty weird and incorrect advice here...

Left and right steep turns are treated identically and the visual reference point is the same. Always trim for changes in speed, power and G loading.

Don't overthink it...
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If you're on the left side of the airplane, the sight picture will be a bit different. If the cowl is a narrow affair it will be a lot different. Right turns, with the normal clockwise propeller rotation, involve more back pressure to fight the nose-down pull caused by gyroscopic precession.

And trim is far overused. Why do some folks hate having to use a little muscle? Have we really become that lazy? I have encountered students that are endlessly fooling with the trim and their flying is sloppy. They can't seem to get the thing to settle down in any regime.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you're on the left side of the airplane, the sight picture will be a bit different.
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Only if you are doing it wrong. If you look anywhere except straight ahead of you, parallax will kick your butt and you will climb in left turns and descend in right turns.

Right turns, with the normal clockwise propeller rotation, involve more back pressure to fight the nose-down pull caused by gyroscopic precession.
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Only during a transition to a turn. In a steady-state turn precession should be negligible.

And trim is far overused. Why do some folks hate having to use a little muscle? Have we really become that lazy?
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Yes. Society has degraded to that point. Don't be lazy.

I have encountered students that are endlessly fooling with the trim and their flying is sloppy. They can't seem to get the thing to settle down in any regime.
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That indicates they have not learned and are unable to correlate the fundamentals from day 1 flight training: PITCH-POWER-TRIM.
 
IK04 said:
Only if you are doing it wrong. If you look anywhere except straight ahead of you, parallax will kick your butt and you will climb in left turns and descend in right turns.


Only during a transition to a turn. In a steady-state turn precession should be negligible.
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You haven't flown an inverted inline engine like I have. Even in the typical opposed-engine single the horizon cuts the cowl at two different places in left and right turns.

Gyroscopic precession is active in any turn. The turn changes the plane of rotation of the propeller and it reacts by trying to tilt at 90 degrees to the turn force in the direction of prop rotation. Turning right is applying forward force to the left edge of the prop disc, so it reacts by acting as if we pushing forward on the top edge, pushing the nose down. A left turn does the opposite. The theory and phenomenon are well-known and as an instructor I frequently experienced and demonstrated it. Plenty here are aware of it.
 
That MzeroA video is pretty much dead on for a 172. For a PA28, it is 2 up on the left turn and leave it for the right. Don't change anything. On a Grumman Tiger, you probably don't need any trim, cause you already have enough up trim from slowing down to 112.

It also really helps to just cover the panel. It is actually easier to do steep turns using visuals and sound.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you're on the left side of the airplane, the sight picture will be a bit different. If the cowl is a narrow affair it will be a lot different. Right turns, with the normal clockwise propeller rotation, involve more back pressure to fight the nose-down pull caused by gyroscopic precession.

And trim is far overused. Why do some folks hate having to use a little muscle? Have we really become that lazy? I have encountered students that are endlessly fooling with the trim and their flying is sloppy. They can't seem to get the thing to settle down in any regime.
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From a student perspective, we usually aren't used to pulling that hard and far back on the yoke, and I think deep down we feel it is "wrong".

I would mention to, maybe it is just me, but the first time I tried a 45, I was a little shocked by how far back, how much resistance, and worse...that the G forces (I know, pretty lame but wasn't used to it) had me feeling "something is wrong". It takes a little getting used to. Tensing my stomach, well...not muscles, but stomach, helps too.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you're on the left side of the airplane, the sight picture will be a bit different. If the cowl is a narrow affair it will be a lot different. Right turns, with the normal clockwise propeller rotation, involve more back pressure to fight the nose-down pull caused by gyroscopic precession.

And trim is far overused. Why do some folks hate having to use a little muscle? Have we really become that lazy? I have encountered students that are endlessly fooling with the trim and their flying is sloppy. They can't seem to get the thing to settle down in any regime.
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It’s probably because their CFI told that “I am always trimming”. Well when I hear that I want to ask them “why? Didn’t you get it the first time around?”

I get the importance of trimming and you have to adjust it when needed but if you have to fiddle with the trim wheel all day long , well you are doing it wrong. Personal preference I guess but trimming for a steep turn doesn’t makes a whole lot sense.
 
Using trim is good practice. It might not be required in a 172, but fly a 182 and you will quickly learn that trim is not only your friend, it is a necessity.

BTW, once you finish your PP check ride, don't think you are finished with 45 degree banked 360 degree turns. You'll still get asked to do them in your flight reviews (every 2 years for the FAA, annually for our club, which reminds me, I'm due next month). Don't let them get rusty.
 
Hi everyone.
Trim flying is not flying, is guessing. Most pilots have no idea why, when and how to trim. There is lot to trim, and a lot more benefits exist than just relieve muscle pressure, when done correctly.
Looking at some of these experts on videos that give advice to others should / will make most CFIs cringe. They would never pass the Commercial standards with those procedures.
Ask pilots why they trim and most will have one response, remove muscle effort of some form or another, so every time they feel a little pressure on the yoke they trim, they are not stabilized and as a result something changes, likely the speed and they trim again, now the RPM changes, they again trim, now the altitude changes... they are at it all day.
Learn / know your performance and how each element affects another.
The lesson is, before you trim, stabilize, know your performance / numbers and only after that trim. In a 45 deg turn just using trim you will Not pass the commercial standards and it is Not the procedure that should be learned.
I especially like when some "pilots" invoke the supernatural powers and tell others how to, or not to, do it. You only hope they are around long enough to learn how to do it right.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi everyone.
Trim flying is not flying, is guessing. Most pilots have no idea why, when and how to trim. There is lot to trim, and a lot more benefits exist than just relieve muscle pressure, when done correctly.
Looking at some of these experts on videos that give advice to others should / will make most CFIs cringe. They would never pass the Commercial standards with those procedures.
Ask pilots why they trim and most will have one response, remove muscle effort of some form or another, so every time they feel a little pressure on the yoke they trim, they are not stabilized and as a result something changes, likely the speed and they trim again, now the RPM changes, they again trim, now the altitude changes... they are at it all day.
Learn / know your performance and how each element affects another.
The lesson is, before you trim, stabilize, know your performance / numbers and only after that trim. In a 45 deg turn just using trim you will Not pass the commercial standards and it is Not the procedure that should be learned.
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bluesideup said:
I especially like when some "pilots" invoke the supernatural powers and tell others how to, or not to, do it. You only hope they are around long enough to learn how to do it right.
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Isn't that what you just did?
 
...I'm gonna go with the consensus I see here, as well as what I've learned from other pilots on the forums after I've asked questions regarding trim. I dont see how anyone could consider trimming to be NOT flying.

To the OP, I have the same issue with steep turns. I'm a notorious over-corrector. I've actually been out of a Cessna for awhile and working on other things in the CTLS, but tomorrow I'm gonna be back in the 152 for the first time in about 5 months. Thank you for reminding me of something I definitely need to revisit!
 
Hi.
I am assuming you are referring to >>invoke the supernatural powers<<? I was referring to another post by someone else in an earlier post.
If that is the case I do not think it takes anything supernatural to fly a 45 deg. bank turn without trim, but others may need it.
jesse said:
Isn't that what you just did?
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