Any chance for Mooney to Manufacture again?

What happens to a production certificate if you don't produce for a couple of years ?
 
Ron Levy said:
Because you cannot today buy a new Mooney Acclaim? Or maybe the folks buying those new planes can't stand the insurance requirements on a very high performance retractable?
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It's not just the Cirrus. I met people who tried to buy a Mooney just before the company folded. The problem was that Mooney entred a price gouging spiral. The fewer airplanes they made, the more they had to charge for those airplanes. This went for a few years, until the pricing pushed them against G36. At that point G36 had the same speed, but it was much more airplane for the money. That killed Mooney for good. They survived Cirrus thanks to people who wanted the last knot of speed, but not their own pricing.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Agreed. But if all of your profits are going to insurance companies to fight off greedy bottom feeding lawyers then it really doesn't make sense to manufacture a product.
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Is this really true? I pulled up Textron financial statements and maybe half a paragraph about product liability being a risk moving forward but a few pages about personnel overhead and a billion in outstanding benefits is what keeps the price of a Cessna high.

I don't like the sharks and would love to see reform across the board, so don't get me wrong or think I'm defending them, I just don't know that the price is indicative of insurance costs as much as it is poor business management and bad labor planning. Thus the move to china and Mexico that Cessna has been doing lately..
 
supernovae said:
Is this really true? I pulled up Textron financial statements and maybe half a paragraph about product liability being a risk moving forward but a few pages about personnel overhead and a billion in outstanding benefits is what keeps the price of a Cessna high.

I don't like the sharks and would love to see reform across the board, so don't get me wrong or think I'm defending them, I just don't know that the price is indicative of insurance costs as much as it is poor business management and bad labor planning. Thus the move to china and Mexico that Cessna has been doing lately..
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The US economy, cheaper labor overseas, friendlier tax environment overseas, no worries of frivolous lawsuits from overseas, less bureaucracy from overseas, etc.

The GA market is getting smaller and smaller due to decrease demand. Just follow the LSA market and that's indicative of what's going on.
 
LOL, one of the funniest threads in a long time.... While not impossible, highly unlikely... In two pages, only 2 people said they would buy 1. Also, all the talk about insurance, etc has not stopped Cirrus from being prosperous!

Face it, Cirrus is superior!
 

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jmp470 said:
LOL, one of the funniest threads in a long time.... While not impossible, highly unlikely... In two pages, only 2 people said they would buy 1. Also, all the talk about insurance, etc has not stopped Cirrus from being prosperous!

Face it, Cirrus is superior!
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Hmm, last time I called up to Duluth Cirrus was surviving, and far from prospering. Granted that is about the best you can hope for in this industry recently:mad2:
 
LDJones said:
I'd take an RV-10 in a heartbeat! Sadly, no one has offered yet. :sad: :sad: :sad:

Maybe Geico will adopt me.
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Probably not adopt you. But, he'll buy a wreck for 5K and sell it to you for 25K. Which is AMAZING given how safe and easy to fly they are. :D But hey, with a little time in the shed, you'll be able to go from NYC to LAX with 3 PAX and bags, no problem.
 
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bartmc said:
Probably not adopt you. But, he'll buy a wreck for 5K and sell it to you for 25K.
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Someone has to do it! ;)

No one ever bought and sold a wrecked certified plane? Everything is for sake. :yes:

I thought you and rotorooter didn't think I know what I'm doing? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I would say if a person buys a wrecked plane from the insurance company for $5k and sells it for $25k in 10 days that would be a good thing. Are you now anti profit? True colors coming out? :yes:

How much money have you made in aviation?
 
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I wouldn't put any stock on them making airplanes again in the near future. They will keep making parts for awhile though methinks.
 
I would like the factory to build me a long body with all the latest aerodynamic refinements, rounded windows, and an IO-390 up front. I'll call it the Mooney M20 Super-J.

I would never buy a Cirrus. Leaving the landing gear down just seems dumb.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
If it does, it will be in China or Russia.
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That is my thought , a labor intensive airframe, in a labor rich environment. I think some forward thinking foreigh investor could make it work . Make them there ship them to Kerrville for assembly.
 
Is that an open question? Are you thinking you're top dog on the making-money list from aviation?

Geico266 said:
Someone has to do it! ;)

No one ever bought and sold a wrecked certified plane? Everything is for sake. :yes:

I thought you and rotorooter didn't think I know what I'm doing? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I would say if a person buys a wrecked plane from the insurance company for $5k and sells it for $25k in 10 days that would be a good thing. Are you now anti profit? True colors coming out? :yes:

How much money have you made in aviation?
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wabower said:
Is that an open question? Are you thinking you're top dog on the making-money list from aviation?
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No, that question was for Rusty, read the posts. Rusty seems to think making money in aviation is a bad thing. :dunno:

You are not going to start asking about my underwear again are you? :confused: :rofl:
 
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I only worry about them being too tight when your voice gets high and shrill from pimping the shed-built fleet. I'm sure you're aware of all the public health warnings about tighty-whities.

Geico266 said:
No, that question was for Rusty, read the posts. Rusty seems to think making money in aviation is a bad thing. :dunno:

You are not going to start asking about my underwear again are you? :confused: :rofl:
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wabower said:
I only worry about them being too tight when your voice gets high and shrill from pimping the shed-built fleet. I'm sure you're aware of all the public health warnings about tighty-whities.
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I'm sure you are well versed. :lol: ;)

Making money in aviation is not a crime, and in fact may help others in seeing the value of starting a side business to help offset the costs of flying. There are many opportunities to save money and make money if pilots would open their eyes and think outside the box. Diversification and flexibility in this economy is not a vice.
 
Tort reform--

Aviation as a whole is going down in flames partly due to incompentence of it's own members. :stirpot:

Reasearch the accident of N299X where the two critically injured occupants were awarded $15 million after a mechanic and his supervisor determined the new TCM gasket maker part # 646942 could be used on the cylinder base seals of an IO550 due to a catch all phrase in the service manual stating the gasket maker could be used on "all non-coated seals".


TCM admitted that they knew of other cases where this had occured and neglected to revise the service maintence manual. :mad2:


Parhaps the signle engine aircraft risk is soooo much higher than the twin turbine, they will eventually nearly disappear altogether.
 
If any of your posts have included diversification, I've missed it. Instead, your incessant bleating about the virtues of shed-builts even in situations where they are obviously inappropriate is disingenuous insofar as a balanced discussion is concerned. As a dealer, you should recuse yourself from participation in any such threads.

Geico266 said:
I'm sure you are well versed. :lol: ;)

Making money in aviation is not a crime, and in fact may help others in seeing the value of starting a side business to help offset the costs of flying. There are many opportunities to save money and make money if pilots would open their eyes and think outside the box. Diversification and flexibility in this economy is not a vice.
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Wayne, do you mean to tell me that a G-V isn't the perfect plane for my mission?
 
Skylane81E said:
Hmm, last time I called up to Duluth Cirrus was surviving, and far from prospering. Granted that is about the best you can hope for in this industry recently:mad2:
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And doesn't a Chinese company own it?
 
Yes it is, and the girls that will volunteer to ride along in the back will even take care of the dogs. I've thought about recommending that you buy one (as you know, I've represented quite a few other buyers for such planes) but also know that you're not an ostentatious kind of guy.

But if you change your mind I know where a great deal can be made for ~27 mil on a real nice one. Maybe you could rent it to Fearless for his trips to AZ. Range shouldn't be a problem, it will only need about a third of a tank of fuel.




Ted DuPuis said:
Wayne, do you mean to tell me that a G-V isn't the perfect plane for my mission?
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wabower said:
Yes it is, and the girls that will volunteer to ride along in the back will even take care of the dogs. I've thought about recommending that you buy one (as you know, I've represented quite a few other buyers for such planes) but also know that you're not an ostentatious kind of guy.

But if you change your mind I know where a great deal can be made for ~27 mil on a real nice one. Maybe you could rent it to Fearless for his trips to AZ. Range shouldn't be a problem, it will only need about a third of a tank of fuel.
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Let me get a fundraiser going for that. As soon as we can raise the $27 mil, I'll give you a call. Will you throw in the type rating for that price? How about a fresh annual?
 
I'll do the training for you, but we'll need a taller stepladder for the annual.

Ted DuPuis said:
Let me get a fundraiser going for that. As soon as we can raise the $27 mil, I'll give you a call. Will you throw in the type rating for that price? How about a fresh annual?
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Oh, and I assume operating the G-V out of the 3500 ft gravel strips will be fine. I can't give up on my Canadian dog flights.
 
We were based on a 3500' strip in CT. No problemo. Engines are high enough that FOD isn't a problem.

Ted DuPuis said:
Oh, and I assume operating the G-V out of the 3500 ft gravel strips will be fine. I can't give up on my Canadian dog flights.
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wabower said:
We were based on a 3500' strip in CT. No problemo. Engines are high enough that FOD isn't a problem.
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Perfect.

Now I'll just need to explain to the folks that the plane will have to park on the runway since it won't fit in the parking area that any of those airports have.
 
Hope it's not too tight. We need a little room to turn that sow around.

Ted DuPuis said:
Perfect.

Now I'll just need to explain to the folks that the plane will have to park on the runway since it won't fit in the parking area that any of those airports have.
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wabower said:
If any of your posts have included diversification, I've missed it. Instead, your incessant bleating about the virtues of shed-builts even in situations where they are obviously inappropriate is disingenuous insofar as a balanced discussion is concerned. As a dealer, you should recuse yourself from participation in any such threads.
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Not a dealer sorry. :no:
 
zaitcev said:
It's not just the Cirrus. I met people who tried to buy a Mooney just before the company folded. The problem was that Mooney entred a price gouging spiral. The fewer airplanes they made, the more they had to charge for those airplanes.
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What? That's not gouging. It's called making a profit and staying in business. It is a fact that the fewer of something you produce, the more each product costs to produce and if you want to stay in business, you must raise the retail price. Gouging is when demand is so high, that you have the opportunity to take advantage of a situation and hyper inflate the retail price for the sole purpose of making many times the profit. Mooney has never been in this position.

This went for a few years, until the pricing pushed them against G36. At that point G36 had the same speed, but it was much more airplane for the money.
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You have spent way too much time on the Beechtalk forums. The G36 is, was and never will be as fast as an Ovation, or an Acclaim. The Bonanza had little to nothing to do with Mooney's demise. The Cirrus did. If Beechcraft only built the Bonanza and nothing else, they too would be out of the plane building business.

Will Mooney build new M20s again? No. The M20 airframe is obsolete for the demands of the 21st century buyer and it costs way too much to produce.

Will Mooney design and produce a new 21st century airplane? No. It costs too much and the ROI to low. Huge waste of money for the investor.

Will Mooney be bought by the Chinese? No. They have no interest in mid 20th century technology. They're not that dumb, or that desperate.

Will Mooney survive as a company? Quite possibly. There is still a sizable fleet of Mooneys out there that need parts and support. This could be a lucrative business (if there is such a thing in piston GA). Also there there is talk of Mooney starting a factory re-manufacture program for M20Js and Ks. However the market is pretty poor for that idea now.

In addition, I think a perfect opportunity for Mooney would be to enter the Experimental kit market. A composite version of the M18 Mite would be popular as well as a bigger, re-engineered 2 seat version, say the M19. Following that, a re-engineered M20J and K to be more home buildable, or built in Mooney builder assist workshops.

Forever now, kit companies have been trying to get into the certified plane building business, but I think it's time for the certified companies to look into getting into the kit business.
 
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wabower said:
Hope it's not too tight. We need a little room to turn that sow around.
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I was just planning on keeping the TRs deployed to back up after landing. Stay parked at the departure end for the duration of the stay.
 
ejensen said:
I knew one of the recent CEOs. She said they have to get to 1500 to be profitable.
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Gretchen? I worked for her at a software company a number of years ago - pre-Mooney
 
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Sorry I'm late to the thread, but I did read all of it before posting
flyingmoose said:
All the half build airplanes just sat where they left them.
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Experimental Kit built category???
(edit: now I see someone has suggested that idea)
zaitcev said:
It's not just the Cirrus. I met people who tried to buy a Mooney just before the company folded. The problem was that Mooney entred a price gouging spiral. The fewer airplanes they made, the more they had to charge for those airplanes. This went for a few years, until the pricing pushed them against G36. At that point G36 had the same speed, but it was much more airplane for the money. That killed Mooney for good. They survived Cirrus thanks to people who wanted the last knot of speed, but not their own pricing.
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There once was a new Mooney at our field. Reportedly, (during the housing bubble) the guy paid $600-Gs for it using home equity. Also reportedly, he didn't have insurance and when he went offroading in it at <20hrs in-type,had to fix it out of pocket. AND THEN his wife made him quit flying altogether. Reportedly he EVENTUALLY sold it for 4 something.

But this is just all that I heard.
 
Could Mooney do another m10 modernized with say a rotax and cut the weight down to fill out some trainer market or hit lsa requirements too or did they sell off that design in one of there many historical chapter 11s?
 
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