Any Cessna 182 Experience with a Rajay Turbo?

NordicDave

NordicDave

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NordicDave
I'm looking at purchasing a 182 with a Rajay turbo normalized engine. I'm flying into mountainous airports and would appreciate the benefits of the turbo.

It would be great to connect with someone with experience in flying/owning a plane with the Rajay STC.

Any insights towards better understand the quirks, issues, maintenance challenges, best practices for usage, etc.

Really appreciate the forums help!

-David
 
NordicDave said:
I'm looking at purchasing a 182 with a Rajay turbo normalized engine. I'm flying into mountainous airports and would appreciate the benefits of the turbo.

It would be great to connect with someone with experience in flying/owning a plane with the Rajay STC.

Any insights towards better understand the quirks, issues, maintenance challenges, best practices for usage, etc.

Really appreciate the forums help!

-David
Click to expand...
is that a retract 182 also by chance?
 
It's a fixed gear. The Rajay was added with STC kit. I like the idea of the manual waste gate control this set-up has.

-David
 
NordicDave said:
It's a fixed gear. The Rajay was added with STC kit. I like the idea of the manual waste gate control this set-up has.

-David
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I gather it's a manual WG that's use to normalize the manifold pressure? As in you use the turbo when you need to and not all the time
 
midcap said:
I gather it's a manual WG that's use to normalize the manifold pressure? As in you use the turbo when you need to and not all the time
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Exactly. I would have a normally aspirated A/C until the wastegate is closed the desired amount to make the desired boost. The system Is supposed to pressurize the intake to standard atmosphere up to FL12.

Attached is a pic of the "4th engine control".
 

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NordicDave said:
Exactly. I would have a normally aspirated A/C until the wastegate is closed the desired amount to make the desired boost. The system Is supposed to pressurize the intake to standard atmosphere up to FL12.

Attracted is a pic of the "4th engine control".
Click to expand...

nice....I like those set ups
 
Any thoughts about the desirability of fixed gear, turbo normalized 182P? There are very few available from pre-1986. How much additional value would you put on a high quality set-up this this?

I'm trying to figure out how much additional value it adds beyond the same A/C without the Rajay set-up?

Thanks!
 
I had a RayJay TN'd engine in my Bo when I bought it. Was really happy to see that thing go. Good idea in theory but it's impossible to get parts for the system. It was neat to be able to dial up the pressure when I was in Colorado though.
 
I don't know which system he has, but @TangoWhiskey has a C182 that is equipped with a turbo. He might be able to share some insight on the subject.
 
I would guess that bootstrapping at altitude if trying to run LOP would be troublesome.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I don't know which system he has, but @TangoWhiskey has a C182 that is equipped with a turbo. He might be able to share some insight on the subject.
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He has the standard single handle TR182. Behaves similarly though, first half of the handle travel is throttle, second half is the wastegate. They fly pretty well up here, even on a hot day, just don't overboost on takeoff or a go around.
 
denverpilot said:
He has the standard single handle TR182. Behaves similarly though, first half of the handle travel is throttle, second half is the wastegate. They fly pretty well up here, even on a hot day, just don't overboost on takeoff or a go around.
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Flown the type of airplane you are speaking of. TR182. Slippery and fast.
 
denverpilot said:
He has the standard single handle TR182. Behaves similarly though, first half of the handle travel is throttle, second half is the wastegate. They fly pretty well up here, even on a hot day, just don't overboost on takeoff or a go around.
Click to expand...

Here's a pic of the Rajay's "fourth engine control" kind of nice boost setting is independent from main throttle. Like Denverpilot said... Less chance of over boost on go abounds etc...
 

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EvilEagle said:
I had a RayJay TN'd engine in my Bo when I bought it. Was really happy to see that thing go. Good idea in theory but it's impossible to get parts for the system. It was neat to be able to dial up the pressure when I was in Colorado though.
Click to expand...

Parts seemed in good supply for overhauls for the major bits like exhaust plumbing, turbo internals, etc. would you mind sharing your experiences? It would be helpful in making a decision whether to purchase.

Thanks!
 
I waited for one y-adapter for two years then just stopped calling. I could never get them to let me purchase (much less just have) a copy of some basic STC diagrams. It just got to be a hassle trying to find parts. It wasn't all that often I needed them, but it was always a long wait. Also ended up needing a new exhaust and turbos- that was about $14k plus install...
 
EvilEagle said:
I waited for one y-adapter for two years then just stopped calling. I could never get them to let me purchase (much less just have) a copy of some basic STC diagrams. It just got to be a hassle trying to find parts. It wasn't all that often I needed them, but it was always a long wait. Also ended up needing a new exhaust and turbos- that was about $14k plus install...
Click to expand...

Makes sense, this A/C is getting a whole new exhaust while in annual. It's all stainless steal with a beefed up waste gate. It's $8K from the Custom Aircraft in El Cajon, Ca. They are the original mfg for the STC. They said all the exhausts are pretty much custom to the A/C and that the original drawings are not very useful. Makes sense why you could not get decent drawings based on this feedback. Western Skyways wants $3600 to O/H the turbo's with the engine. Main Turbo also does Rajay O/H's as well.

From everything I mostly hear, it's a good system if treated well. Four things I kept hearing over and again:
1) don't overboost
2) make sure the turbos have time to spool-down before engine shutdown
3) don't run system at lean of peak or exhaust system will never reach TBO
4) don't run the system wide open for extended periods of time (need to understand this point better) holds true for automotive applications as well.

The don'ts aren't much different than any other turbo it seems. Just testing this theory with the forum...
 
get the best latest and greatest tit gauge and a fuel flow shaden or something . good info to dial it in once you know the "numbers" if an injected engine go for the gamies . when i was a kid my father flew for piper and i got to fool around with a Comanche with one now and again i used to abuse the hell out of it esp on high density altitude days .i also had a box of parts and an idea to try to add one to a skyhawk with a320e2d using a 337 never got anywhere with that as the feds are not user friendly in some fisdos .
 
NordicDave said:
Makes sense, this A/C is getting a whole new exhaust while in annual. It's all stainless steal with a beefed up waste gate. It's $8K from the Custom Aircraft in El Cajon, Ca. They are the original mfg for the STC. They said all the exhausts are pretty much custom to the A/C and that the original drawings are not very useful. Makes sense why you could not get decent drawings based on this feedback. Western Skyways wants $3600 to O/H the turbo's with the engine. Main Turbo also does Rajay O/H's as well.

From everything I mostly hear, it's a good system if treated well. Four things I kept hearing over and again:
1) don't overboost
Click to expand...
Very important! Unlike the TR182 combined throttle/wastegate control, the Rajay setup has a serious gotcha that has caught more than one pilot by (expensive) surprise. It's surprisingly easy to leave the wastegate partly or fully closed when descending from the FLs and if something unusual (traffic avoidance, downdraft on short final, go-around etc.) causes you to open the throttle, a serious overboost will occur almost immediately. And given that this is likely to occur when you're rather distracted the first thing you might notice is the brief surge of excess thrust followed by a loud bang or two. I don't know about the Rajay 182 STC but IIRC some Rajay installations didn't even have a popoff. At least with the combined throttle/wastegate control you are more likely to properly manage boost when advancing the throttle because you ALWAYS have to do so and it becomes habit, just like it is with a fixed wastegate.

2) make sure the turbos have time to spool-down before engine shutdown
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That's an OWT, proven incorrect by tests performed at GAMI. They determined that the coolest turbo temps occur shortly after you close the throttle at touchdown and from that point on, idling actually warms things back up.

3) don't run system at lean of peak or exhaust system will never reach TBO
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I'm pretty certain that's another OWT but I'd get a second opinion on that from TAT/GAMI. You do need to pay attention to TIT limits but that's for the protection of the exhaust turbine itself. That said, as already mentioned LOP with a fixed (or manually controlled) wastegate can be problematic due to bootstrapping issues (the lean mix decreases turbo RPM causing the mixture to get less lean which then increases the turbo RPM over and over). This is likely more of a problem with TCM injection than Lycoming because the fuel flow on most TCM engines is completely independent of MAP.
[4) don't run the system wide open for extended periods of time (need to understand this point better) holds true for automotive applications as well
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean by "wide open". If that's referring to increasing the MAP above 30inHg I'd agree and in fact I'd say you're moving into test pilot mode if you do that for even a short period of time. If you meant using the engine's rated full power continuously, that's probably OK as long as the CHTs (an all cylinder engine monitor would be a must) remain comfortably below 400°F at all times and the TIT stays below redline. To do that would require running rather rich or well LOP but shouldn't harm engine or turbo. But I see nothing wrong with operating continuously with the wastegate fully closed for maximum boost when you're high enough that the resulting MAP and HP is no higher than 70% ROP or 80% LOP.
 
Thanks Gismo! You're right in my intrepertation of wide open throttle. I believe the Rayjay system has amended limitations when in use of:

- Turbocharged takeoff 29.5 in Hg at 2600 rpm (3 min)
- Max continuous 27 in Hg at 2500 rpm
- Airspeed limitations, Reduce Vne by 5 mph per 1000ft over 22000 ft
- Min continuous climb speed with turbo power 110 mph
- Emergency descent at idle power, 160 mph
 
Having now bought the 182P with the Rajay turbo STC, wanted to follow-up by closing out some of the questions and comments on the thread.

Parts are readily available for servicing. Every part of the system I needed for O/H was available form Bob Spellman at Rajay Parts LLC http://www.rajayparts.com/

Bob is a terrific resource and very nice guy, I found very responsive and customer oriented. He in fact has ALL the diagrams, giant STC installation diagrams; and service, operations, and parts manuals. His willingness to share knowledge collected over the years was an aid to me in earning the system.

There are Two major AD's which are easily complied with
- AD 82-27-03, requiring 200hr inspections of turbo hot section for cracks longer than 3/4". However this AD is no longer a factor after turbo O/H by Main Turbo. Since this is a 35 year old AD, it would be odd to find a turbo unit which has not been O/H'd.
- AD 81-19-04 requires fuel hoses to be replaced every 5 years. There are other non-Rajay AD's requiring periodic fuel and oil line replacements.

A recent flight, my 182P was climbing nicely at 24 square at 12,000'. It's pretty cool making 230 HP up to 16,000. :7)

The Rajay does take some thoughtfulness in it's care and a ham handed, impatient, or inexperienced A&P could cause havoc with the system. My plane had some examples of this which I had corrected.

Last note the FAA considers time in use measured by straight tach time, UNLESS the pilot/owner keep a separate log for the turbo. I keep a flight diary for my plane anyway, recording every flight independent of my pilot log; where I notate turbo time in service for any given flight.

My experiences are positive to date. Wanted to close out the thread with a final chapter.

-NordicDave
 
About 130kts. It can do better, as I have a rigging issue creating excess drag getting fixed this Summer.
 
Supposedly 155kts at altitude. It'll take some tuning the airframe. I've already started taking some of the extra dargginess out, like replacing the ancient giant marker beacon antenna and the old very raggy wheel fairings. These are small things, but working through the plane as money and quality parts are acquired. The funds for rigging got diverted this month into a new PS Engineering 450A audio panel, 430WAAS upgrade, and GTX-345 transponder. Had to beat the 430W upgrade price increase and secure one of the FAA ADS-B rebate spots.
 
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Great information being shared for all turbo flyers. One other point, always manage MP to book numbers (and CHTs) with how you handle the turbo controller, and for the sake of TBO operate power settings calculated at altitude and OAT. For me, 60-65% power setting in cruise at altitude is the limit. If you want something with faster book numbers, look for another A/C.

It is like a second throttle, but b/c it's manually operated you will be the reason for overboost and excessive or prolonged CHT temps. T/O, climb, cruise and decent will all have operating sequence to manage the second throttle. It's another component to inspect and maintain no matter how often you 'use it', or not.

There is an RG near my field with similar set up and he sees 145kts pretty consistantly. I've flown with him a couple of times and watched as he only used the turbo controller after MP drops below target in climb/cruise, and adjust turbo first while in decent until completly open, then throttle. I'd be glad to give you his contact info if you want to talk with him about his experience.

Having said all of that, the turbo performance will absolutly spoil you. ;)
 
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Jeff Cutler said:
It is like a second throttle, but b/c it's manually operated you will be the reason for overboost and excessive or prolonged CHT temps. T/O, climb, cruise and decent will all have operating sequence to manage the second throttle. It's another component to inspect and maintain no matter how often you 'use it', or not.

...Having said all of that, the turbo performance will absolutly spoil you. ;)
Click to expand...

Jeff has the right idea about judicious use and watching temps.

Exactly how it should be run. Once throttle provides max MP once all the way in, start twisting the vernier waste gate control to desired Manifold Pressure. Good idea to keep an eye on CHT and Exhaust temp. Just because the turbo STC is rated for continuous 27" at 2400, does not mean it should be there all day.

Likewise on the descent... back off on the turbos first and when the waste gates are completely out, then back off on throttle. By 5000' MSL no turbo boost is applied and they have time to spin down prior to landing.

The Rajay STC is set-up for 100% exhaust by pass and have sufficient time to wind down for sea level landings. Landing at altitude with turbos engaged, time is needed for spool down after landing.

It's really hard to go back after flying boosted. I get standard fuel consumption like any other O-470R below 5-6000'. A distinct difference from the big engine STC's.

-NordicDave
 
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