Any advice on transitioning to J-3 Cub?

iWantWings

iWantWings

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I am a very low-hour private pilot who has flown only tricycle gear: most of the time C172 and a handful of hours in C150 or C162 (skycatcher - flew like a gokart ;)). There were a few other low wing but just a one-time occurance and i did not log pic for these. So thats my limitted experience.

The school now has a 1943 J-3 with some upgrades (c-85, electric start) and this is like my dream come true: to find out what it is like to fly a Cub.

I'm totally excited to have the opportunity to learn to fly a Cub, but since I have never been in one, or in any tailwheel, or even in a tricycle-gear plane that might "fly like a Cub", i dont really know what to expect. Specifically what's it like to transition from C172 to a J-3 Cub.

So i read a few books on tailwheel airplanes, watched training videos and recreational flights - and thats about my ownly source of a clue.

I think I'm aware of the common knowledge of critical use of the rudder in all phases of flight, methods of doing a wheel landing or 3-point landing, etc. - but only from reading, nothing practical

So any info on the transition or what it's like to fly one
is much appreciated.

Edit: I was told it might take ~10 hrs to transition. The instructor for the Cub i am told is very experienced and teaches well.
 
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iWantWings said:
.......So any info on the transition or what it's like to fly one is much appreciated.

Edit: I was told it might take ~10 hrs to transition. The instructor for the Cub i am told is very experienced and teaches well.
Click to expand...

What it is like to fly one? FUN! Lots and lots of fun! I've flown J-3's to Gulfstreams, and a lot of stuff in between, and IMHO, the J-3 is the funnest of all. (For fixed wing, that is; helos are a whole nother different batch of fun). My first CFI job was teaching in Cubs off a grass field in 1972. Hand propping, no radios and no headsets/intercoms in those days. We routinely soloed folks in 6-8 hours back then. Can't imagine it'd take any halfway decent light plane pilot ten hours to transition, but who knows these days; I think CFI's and flight schools go overboard these days with checkouts and the like, due to liability concerns, but that is a topic for another thread. In any case, you will have a blast. Just stay away from windy days and crosswinds while you are getting the feel for tailwheel flying!
 
I was in your same shoes. Have fun! It's a blast, just learn on the fly.
 
mswmsw said:
Hand propping, no radios and no headsets/intercoms in those days. We routinely soloed folks in 6-8 hours back then.
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Bird's Nest airport, Manor Texas?

I ask because my first solo was in a J-3 at that airport in 1970. I think it was at 7 hours.

Certainly any private pilot can learn to fly a Cub quickly. The big thing you'll notice in the J-3 is that it has a powerful rudder, far more powerful than on any Cessna.

You'll use that rudder to slip down final, since there's no other way to really adjust your rate of descent. It's super fun to go down final sideways with the air coming in through the side of the airplane.

The cub is fun to spin. At Bird's Nest spins were demoed prior to solo.

I could go on, but really, you'll have a blast!!
 
Just a couple of things you'll notice right away. Getting in and out is a little more of an exercise in gymnastics, centerline seating so the view out left and right is identical, and turning maneuvers look the same too. Now you fly with a stick in your right hand and throttle in your left, that'll feel natural real soon so don't worry about it.

You may start in the front seat and transition to the back later, but to solo you fly from the back seat. You won't be able to see the few instruments from the back while someone is sitting up front. You use other cues besides instruments to hold straight and level. Equal distance between the bottom of each wing and the horizon is wings level, the same with the angle of the bottom of the wings and or part of the jury strut and the horizon for pitch, and of course the nose too.

You'll need to know how the wind is affecting the plane at all times, especially with ground handling. You won't be able to see over the nose until the tail is up on TO or landing, so S turns while taxiing and using your peripheral vision for TO and landing.

The Cub is much lighter than what you are used to so it may feel like it floats off the ground on TO rather than an actual rotation. Again, it's much lighter and any winds affect it much more than ordinary planes. Crab angles for the cross winds will be increased in the pattern. Slips will be much more than you are used to, and much more fun. I would say that the rudder is much more effective rather than powerful.

It's a different kind of plane than you are used to, and a different kind of flying too. Just think that you're flying in the 1940's and have fun.
 
J-3 is a great tailwheel trainer. It is also one of the best balanced, nicest flying planes I've flown. Flying with the door open (warmer weather) is a whole new experience, and we even did a lesson in the snow on tires. After you get your tailwheel, you can get lessons on skiis too if they have that available.

The trick is to just keep flying the plane the ENTIRE time the engine is running. I think a lot of people get complacent or don't keep the controls moving, and that is what will get you into trouble. And you'll finally learn what those pedals on the floor do!

After you get checked out, if you never fly another tailwheel again, I've found that all those sharpened skills transfer beautifully to nosewheel aircraft too. I became much more comfortable in crosswinds.

ENJOY! It's how 95%(?) of the old timers learned how to fly.
 
Have fun, fly with the door open as much as possible.
 
Wheel landings in a J3 are a hoot. Its a plane where you actually have to use the rudder, unlike the 172. The 172 you can be all sloppy and still fly OK. Can't in a J3. It teaches you to actually fly a plane.

And when its warm out, flying with the door open is awesome.

When you can drop the wing into a crosswind with a little opposite rudder on landing and do a perfect 3 point, you know you're doing good.
 
The good news is you have been flying Cessna 172s and 150s. These are rudder airplanes. If you haven't been using the rudder in the Cessnas the Cub will teach you to fly the Cessna more precisely. If you bank left in the cub without rudder it will turn right due to the pronounced adverse yaw. The most frustrating part is rudder work on the runway, at first you will likely think it is impossible. When the tail swings on the ground it gains momentum and the rudder takes a second to slow the swing and reverse direction. You have to anticipate your rudder work on the surface or you will be weaving all over the place. Expect to weave all over the place. The good news is the human brain figures this out all on its own. Like riding a bike, once you get it becomes a life skill. Still the Cub is pretty docile so don't think once you are checked out in a Cub you are good to go in a single seat Pitts. Have fun!
 
UngaWunga said:
....

When you can drop the wing into a crosswind with a little opposite rudder on landing and do a perfect 3 point, you know you're doing good.
Click to expand...

I think you have to call this one a two point, one main and the tail.
 
Know that your approach speed is the same for a wheel and a 3 point

I used to teach wheel landing first, just kept doing low passes, just holding her off until the wheels chirp, power back up, chirp, etc.

Eventually you'll be able to do a full power off wheel landing.

3 points shouldnt be that tuff for a trike guy to catch onto

Be sure you do some real crosswind landings and a tailwind takeoff and landing or two too.

Plenty of touch and goes, some from the point where you just have your mains down, other from when you're all 3 down.

Look all the way down the runway, at the point that moves the least (infinity point) that is your point of focus once you round out.

Get some spin training while you're at it, also some falling leaf stalls.


Biggest thing is finding a real tailwheel CFI, not just some grandpa who happens to own a Pitts or something. Ideally a AG guy, DHC2 driver, etc.

You'll have fun!
 
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SteveCanyon said:
Heel brakes!
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Being 6'4", I don't like the heel brakes. Have to take my feet off the rudders to use them. Taught me to stick to flying the plane, though.

And what's this "holding off until the tires chirp" stuff? Tires don't chirp on a proper J3 airfield... Even when mowed too short, they shouldn't chirp... :dunno:
 
I've given perhaps 100 or more tailwheel transition courses.

Three things I've found helpful:

1) When doing a full stall landing, hold the plane off for as long as you can. The mental image that works for me is that I'm continuing to "feel" for the runway with the tailwheel. In my Citabrias, the ideal was to have the tailwheel roll on ever-so-slightly first, just as the stick hit the rear stop. At that point the mains would drop maybe 6" with just a bit of a "thump". That seemed to result in less "nervousness" that came with a true 3-point landing, where there still seemed to be some lift left.

2) My students often had a tendency, right after landing, to release back pressure. This habit was so strong, I would sometimes have them reach over with their left hand to "help" their right hold the stick back. Might seem silly, but it worked.

3) Finally, in wheel landings it sometimes helped to have students brace their right forearm against their right inner thigh. This seemed to cut down on the tendency to "porpoise" by introducing a de facto shock absorber into the loop.

In any case, the biggest factor in how difficult the transition is is a pilot's normal landings. I had lots of high time pilots that had gotten used to landing fast, flat and/or with power that had a hack of a time with full stall landings. Then again, I had fresh private pilots with 70 hours or so pick it up right away.

Anyway, best of luck - its a lot of challenging fun and can't help but improve your landings in general.
 
UngaWunga said:
Being 6'4", I don't like the heel brakes.
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I was about 6'2" in my prime, though I think the ravages of time have taken back at least one of those inches.

One of my Citabrias had heel brakes.

From the back seat I actually preferred them. There was always something "wrong" with the geometry of my rear seat toe brakes, making it difficult for me to apply aggressive braking and full rudder at the same time - most often needed while taxiing. My ankles just did not seem to have enough "bend" to them!
 
UngaWunga said:
Being 6'4", I don't like the heel brakes. Have to take my feet off the rudders to use them. Taught me to stick to flying the plane, though.

And what's this "holding off until the tires chirp" stuff? Tires don't chirp on a proper J3 airfield... Even when mowed too short, they shouldn't chirp... :dunno:
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They don't NEED to chirp, even on pavement - if you are really smooth.
 
I got my tailwheel endorsement in a 1946 J-3 Cub. While the Cub is great fun to fly, compared to a C172 it is definitely not "easy" to fly. You do have to work to fly it. It takes much more muscle exertion. The stick forces, especially in pitch, takes a lot more muscle and the elevator trim is much less effective than the 172. The 172 feels like it has power steering compared to the Cub. Also, the heel brake drum brakes are not very effective. The Cub I flew, the brakes would not really hold the plane for the runup.
 
I have been flying since the early 80's and have only made one flight in a Cub and it was back in the late 80's. I remember it was so much fun though. A friend and I rented one from KDNL and flew up to Clarks Hill Lake and around for a couple hours. It was low, slow, breezy and awesome. I would love to get checked out in one, but I don't know any where to do that around here. I know you are going to have a blast. Have fun! Just call me jealous. :rolleyes:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Question: How are you any different from the "grandpa" who owns a Pitts (or something) ?
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Because I did this crap for a living for awhile, I paid for 100% of my life with what I earned flying tailwheel planes, I didn't sneak out of my retirment home to teach one 3 students a year, and I didn't consider myself a expert because I bought a Pitts or swift or something. I've also flown tailwheels across the country a few times, landed on everything from beaches to international airports in taildraggers. It wasn't my hobby, it was how I made a living.

After cleaning up more than a few students who got crap training from hobby CFIs, it was to the point after the second guy, I debated having a different rate for people who already had "instruction" in a tailwheel, dumb crap too like stick forward on landing while doing a wheel landing...one guy was flying like a robot touch down and he'd just put it forward to put it forward, he'd have that plane riding the mains with a slight nose DOWN attitude, no bueno.

Id be more interested in how many different taildraggers the CFI has flown, what surfaces he's landed on, how many hours a year he logs in tailwheel, where he's flown, if its just in a 100nm ring with him or him +1, just in his plane or one other and he's logging 40hrs a year, shop around.

When I lived in CA I ran into more then a few guys like this, some with no aviation background, some ex airlines, it felt like they were more into showing off their airplane or awsome "skillz" than teaching someone something.

You want good instruction there are two AG schools in the US that would be great, I'm sure a few good places in AK, outside from that its really picking through to find a good teacher.
 
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Sounds pretty simple. If the instructor is as talented as you say, simply do what he tells you.
 
James331 said:
Because I did this crap for a living for awhile, I paid for 100% of my life with what I earned flying tailwheel planes, I didn't sneak out of my retirment home to teach one 3 students a year, and I didn't consider myself a expert because I bought a Pitts or swift or something. I've also flown tailwheels across the country a few times, landed on everything from beaches to international airports in taildraggers. It wasn't my hobby, it was how I made a living.

After cleaning up more than a few students who got crap training from hobby CFIs, it was to the point after the second guy, I debated having a different rate for people who already had "instruction" in a tailwheel, dumb crap too like stick forward on landing while doing a wheel landing...one guy was flying like a robot touch down and he'd just put it forward to put it forward, he'd have that plane riding the mains with a slight nose DOWN attitude, no bueno.
Click to expand...

For a low time pilot you have a very inflated ego. Whatever. :rolleyes2:

Anyway, there are lots of variables in folks who hold CFI's. In my experience I always found the guy that boast and brags about his experience is just covering some other inadequacy (such as teaching skills).
 
RotorAndWing said:
For a low time pilot you have a very inflated ego. Whatever. :rolleyes2:

Anyway, there are lots of variables in folks who hold CFI's. In my experience I always found the guy that boast and brags about his experience is just covering some other inadequacy (such as teaching skills).
Click to expand...


So if that's true, what does bragging about flight time indicate? ;) ;) ;) ;)
 
Add, as I did, a plaque that says
"On touchdown, hold back the stick!"
 
RotorAndWing said:
For a low time pilot you have a very inflated ego. Whatever. :rolleyes2:

Anyway, there are lots of variables in folks who hold CFI's. In my experience I always found the guy that boast and brags about his experience is just covering some other inadequacy (such as teaching skills).
Click to expand...

You are pulling my leg right?!

You just asked me how -I- am different than a low taildragger time CFI, I answered your question. I didn't say a word about myself in the first post, I only gave a few suggestions for the OP.

Low time? Plenty of folks have more time than me (or you), but I'm not sure my just shy of 4k hrs would be widely considered as "low time" :dunno:

And if anyone likes to act like king dick around here its you, you make more little passive aggressive comments and offer less actual advice than most on this site.
 
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As you do your final flare, tighten up on the rudders. Take the slack out of the rudder system and start making small corrections. As soon as you land, PUSH ON THE RUDDER! Which way? The opposite of the way the plane is turning. But what if the plane is going straight? Then just pick one direction or the other, and push on that rudder. The whole landing is KEEP IT STRAIGHT!!! Push on the rudders clear to shutdown. Save the day!
 
to the OP:

1st, this is just an airplane. You'll see here in this thread examples of some of the chest thumping you'll find about taildragger this and taildragger that. People like to think what they do is special. It's really not. Like any new-to-you airplane you'll have a few things to pick up on. Your instructor will cover it with you and you won't have any trouble. Given the choice, for a cfi for this (and anything else) I would look for a grey haired gentleman or lady who is interested in teaching more that talking about themselves.

2nd, I personally have a hard time getting excited about cubs. IMO the champ was and is a better airplane, is easier to get in and out of and more comfortable to sit in. But the cub has a nostalgia factor that the champ doesn't, there is no denying it. Cubs sell for 2X what a champ will fetch.
 
:yes:
JHW said:
to the OP:

1st, this is just an airplane. You'll see here in this thread examples of some of the chest thumping you'll find about taildragger this and taildragger that. People like to think what they do is special. It's really not. Like any new-to-you airplane you'll have a few things to pick up on. Your instructor will cover it with you and you won't have any trouble. Given the choice, for a cfi for this (and anything else) I would look for a grey haired gentleman or lady who is interested in teaching more that talking about themselves.

2nd, I personally have a hard time getting excited about cubs. IMO the champ was and is a better airplane, is easier to get in and out of and more comfortable to sit in. But the cub has a nostalgia factor that the champ doesn't, there is no denying it. Cubs sell for 2X what a champ will fetch.
Click to expand...

:yes:

It is just an airplane. There will be a few new things to learn with the tail down but nothing super human, just new. Thats why the instructor is there to teach you. Relax, listen and have fun.
 
champ driver said:
...You may start in the front seat and transition to the back later...
Click to expand...

If your instructor tries to get you to ride up front tell him to pack sand. Whenever someone unfamiliar with J3 Cubs asks me if they can fly from the front seat I ask them "have you ever been in the front seat of a J3?" because it's not a particularly pleasant place to be for a full sized adult, pretty cramped and you have a good chance of pulling a hamstring trying to shoehorn yourself in there.

I agree it's just an airplane and all the yaking and book reading in the world isn't going to make much difference above just getting in it and flying it. I learned in a J3 in 1969 at the age of 15 and it wasn't a big deal. The biggest thing you'll have to get over is not being able to see a darn thing up front when you flare for that three pointer.
 
You'll have a ball! For me learning tailwheel was a challenge that I am SO glad that I confronted.

Before I read your post, I was going to recommend Damion Delgaizo's DVD, but it sounds as if you've already watched it.

Have fun. You won't regret it.
 
champ driver said:
?..
You may start in the front seat and transition to the back later, but to solo you fly from the back seat.
Click to expand...

If the solo PIC seat is the back seat, Which it is in a J-3, then the "student" gets all the training in that seat. The instructor gets the front seat.

I've never heard of starting training in the wrong seat. :mad2::mad2::mad2:
 
James331 said:
Know that your approach speed is the same for a wheel and a 3 point

I used to teach wheel landing first, just kept doing low passes, just holding her off until the wheels chirp, power back up, chirp, etc.

Eventually you'll be able to do a full power off wheel landing.

3 points shouldnt be that tuff for a trike guy to catch onto

Be sure you do some real crosswind landings and a tailwind takeoff and landing or two too.

Plenty of touch and goes, some from the point where you just have your mains down, other from when you're all 3 down.

Look all the way down the runway, at the point that moves the least (infinity point) that is your point of focus once you round out.

Get some spin training while you're at it, also some falling leaf stalls.


Biggest thing is finding a real tailwheel CFI, not just some grandpa who happens to own a Pitts or something. Ideally a AG guy, DHC2 driver, etc.

You'll have fun!
Click to expand...

So James, tell me how I'm going to look all the way down the runway on the round out and flare if I'm sitting in the back seat behind the instructor? Just curious. Don
 
OP here - you guys should coauthor a book on the J-3 Cub :D

Many thanks for all the good info. Some of the things written are new to me (and never would have thought of them beforehand), while others reinforce the fundamentals I've read about. I feel good now.

In fact, I think I'm ready to tell me CFI "auf wiedersehen" or "ciao" or whatever, 'cuz POA taught me how to fly a cub.

Anyhow, I'm actually pretty surprised that there wasn't much contradiction (if any) on things that matter. Here are some of the notes I copied (some direct, some re-worded)

  1. fun to fly
  2. avoid windy days [my only option will be to fly latter part of afternoon and it's generally windy; will see how it works out]
  3. large, effective rudder
  4. forward slip to accelerate descent (w/out increasing speed)
  5. not so easy to get in and out
  6. centerline seating with left/right symetrical view
  7. right hand on stick, left hand on throttle
  8. solo from the back, can't see instruents [funny and a little concerning]
  9. use angle between horizon/and L/R wings for bank indicator
  10. peripheral vision on takeoff and landings (limitted or no forward view)
  11. like a kite in the wind
  12. fly with door open [I'll wear the snoopy headwear]
  13. don't get complacive - fly it from start to shutdown
  14. cross-wind landings exercises; can't be sloppy with the controlls
  15. pronounced adverse yaw
  16. anticipate use or rudder during taxi
  17. both 3-point and wheel landing use the same approach speed
  18. power-off wheel landings [talk about timing everything right ha-ha!]
  19. 3-point not very different than a tricycle landing
  20. spin training and falling leaf [finally, a plane i could try it in]
  21. heel brakes [lol, first (and only) time I got near a J-3 cub I had no idea where they were when seating in the back]
  22. try managing the taxy to limit brake use
  23. 3-point landing: stall it with stick fully back, rear wheel can touch first
  24. keep full back pressure even after landing [is that to keep the tail on the ground and have steering?]
  25. full stall landings in tricygle gear helps larning 3-point tailwheel landing
  26. greater force/power on stick is needed, especially when controlling pitch [interesting; i never thought that would be the case, thiking it's a light aircraft, light controlls...]
  27. brakes are not very effective, will notice that during runup [probably a good thing so I don't nose it over too easely]
  28. slow, low and breezy [can't wait!]
  29. do what the [good] instructor says [ha-ha]
  30. pin the stick back on touch-down
  31. constant small, quick corrections on the rudder; positive control (dont fall behind the rudder) on ground
  32. rely a [good] instructor [from what I have been told by other CFI's that I trust, the tailwheel CFI is very knowledgeable and teaches well; hope that's so]
  33. champ - another alternative to a cub [i'll take whichever, glad the school has a tailwheel that I can learn on]
  34. fly it from the back at all times [brief, casual chat I had with the CFI, he said that's how we would do it]
  35. Damion Delgazio's DVD [I have not watched it; i will now]
  36. relax
  37. don't overcomplicate things
  38. it ain't that hard [lol, i can make anything be difficult]
  39. have fun [i surely will after I get the hang of it]
 
A few more random thoughts and questions:

- I know this particular J-3 Cub does not have a Mode C transponder (or one at all, actually). Could I ever get flight following in the Mode C veil (while staying out of Bravo and Charlie)? (SoCal region).

- I noticed that the radio looked like a hand-held, permanently mounted within reach of the front seat occupant, but I couldn't tell how I would reach it from the back seat. Maybe I'll have to get really good at aiming the digits with a long stick lol.

- I'll be looking on the charts to see if I can find any regions where I can fly 500feet AGL. I might just fly over the pacific :D

- this plane was made in 1943 - smack during the middle of WWII. I think I will go "Taka-Taka-Taka!" in a nose dive.

- I'll start the transition training in middle to late February; With the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll post some of the training videos
 
iWantWings said:
...[*]keep full back pressure even after landing [is that to keep the tail on the ground and have steering?]...
Click to expand...

Only in certain conditions. When taxiing with any significant tailwind you'll keep the stick forward. You'll also learn to keep the ailerons into the wind. It's all part of the "fly it all the way to the tie down" regime that you're going to be taught.
 
If it has a battery and an alternator then it most likely requires a transponder to fly inside the mode C veil (there are a couple of exceptions).

If you had a good instructor from the beginning then it shouldnt be that hard of a transition. a Cub won't let you be as sloppy on the rudders, but a good instructor in a 172 shouldn't have either! have fun and make sure to share your progress with us!


iWantWings said:
A few more random thoughts and questions:

- I know this particular J-3 Cub does not have a Mode C transponder (or one at all, actually). Could I ever get flight following in the Mode C veil (while staying out of Bravo and Charlie)? (SoCal region).

- I noticed that the radio looked like a hand-held, permanently mounted within reach of the front seat occupant, but I couldn't tell how I would reach it from the back seat. Maybe I'll have to get really good at aiming the digits with a long stick lol.

- I'll be looking on the charts to see if I can find any regions where I can fly 500feet AGL. I might just fly over the pacific :D

- this plane was made in 1943 - smack during the middle of WWII. I think I will go "Taka-Taka-Taka!" in a nose dive.

- I'll start the transition training in middle to late February; With the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll post some of the training videos
Click to expand...
 
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