Any advice for new pilot flying with family?

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@Tommar98 exactly that. I said it in my first post in this thread, and folks didn’t like it, and others have said GA is safe.

I don’t have the stats now, but fatalities per miles traveled is much higher in noncommercial
GA.

You are exposing your wife and kids to increased risk. Period. You can accept and try to mitigate the risk, but to say it isn’t there is untruthful.

It isn’t the same as driving a motorcycle. The fatality rate is higher in GA per mile than even motorcycles.

I took my son up a handful of times before really grasping this. That was about 10 years ago when I was still flying. I read something on the old AOPA board that made me think. 35 year-old me was making a decision for my 3 year-old son about risk. He couldn’t analyze the risk and 100% was trusting me to make a good decision.

That’s real responsibility.

Just saying, people should be aware of the risk when making decisions. Don’t use flawed analysis. I’m glad I took my son up then, but I hadn’t fully considered the risk.

There was a guy near me some years back. Audio was all over the news and this board. Flying his daughter back to school after Thanksgiving or Christmas in an SR22. Dad, daughter, other daughter and boyfriend I think.

VFR into IMC. Didn’t work out. Those decisions are buried in the statistics skews it. I can’t see me making that choice in his situation but who knows. Once you start traveling the decisions get tougher, right (I mostly have the proverbial 1 hour 500x because I rent and only flew in CAVU etc.).

Don’t sugar coat the Risk. Make an honest assessment and mitigate the risks.

 

[CharlieD3]

GA fatal accident rates per 100K hours are going down. Non fatals are nearly flat. (As of 2016, last year available)

I'm a low time ppl (~>100 hours). The last time I tried to take a friend up, we went around the pattern, only.

I was disappointed, he was fine with what he was able to see.

It was a vfr trip, and there were just too many low level clouds for me to feel comfortable.... Could have done circuits all day... But no destination flying. I didn't want to subject a "never flown at all" friend to the tedium.

There are risks in life. Driving a car, riding a motorcycle... you are not the only person determining whether you live another day.

In an aircraft, your chances of being fatally injured are probably 99.95+% dependent on you; not some clown drinking and driving, falling asleep at the wheel, taking the next interstate off ramp from the left lane 500 feet away from it, crossing 3 lanes of traffic.

If most car accidents happen within 5-20 miles from home, perhaps most fatal flight occurrences are likely in close proximity to airports. The rest, from going too far into conditions the pilot is not familiar with/adept at.

The few non-pilot-error accidents are so extremely rare.

Our aircraft (rented or purchased) are maintained far beyond any automobile or truck on the road (even if the last annual was pencil whipped that's more maintenance than 95% of the vehicles on the road).

You have to put oil in the plane and gas.. and a pre-flight... How many people even walk around their cars to see if one side ain't up in blocks cause someone needed a wheel and tire for their ride?

If you trust yourself and your aircraft, there is no real reason not to take a friend or loved one(s) with you.

If you don't trust your aircraft, wait for the next 100 hour inspection, and arrange to watch/help (rented). Or, watch/help with your next annual (owned).

If you don't trust yourself, get a periodic flight review from a CFI, and work on your weaknesses.

If you trust yourself and your plane, for gosh sakes.., take someone with you on a flight, share the joy! Let them make a shallow turn or two (if you're comfortable with that).... Take them over their house... over to the lake, look at the trees, get a burger...

SHARE THE JOY... It may not be possible in a few years...

Sorry for the length of this... But I felt it needed to be said.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@CharlieD3 its been said and read.
There is risk in everything, even standing up getting out of bed.

My point is there is greater risk in GA. People should be aware of it.

Your analysis includes great mitigating factors, but doesn’t change the actual risk. A pilot shouldn’t compare their safety record with the majors unless subjected to the same training and experience (and some do with Flight Safety stints every 6-months etc.) but the average Joe weekend pilot does not.

I never told people to quit or not share the joy. I’m acknowledging the OP and a small group who are seriously considering the risk.

 

[LongRoadBob]

For what it’s worth I agree with your basic premise. I too feel it’s more of an issue taking family - especially the older I get. When I was younger I took my 3 kids up frequently in my piper warrior. Now that I am a grandparent I am hesitant to take the grandkids up. BUT I must disagree that that the highway is more dangerous. GA accident rate compared to driving is far worse. Commercial flying is different - but GA, by some analysis, is 10 times as dangerous. Try telling that to someone the next time you take them up with you.


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Good point, I didn’t realize that. Not going to advertise it either to my family.
In my case, I’ve been taking a very long time to get to my PPL. At least by US standards.
Partly availability of the trainer, the one airplane, partly due to other thighs that got in the way.
Flying has made be a better driver. I’m 63 and notice that I pay way more attention now when driving even a car. Stay in the center of the lane, anticipate any problems, coast to stops that are very gentle, etc.

But I’m still 63, and though I think a very good driver, better than ever, I still have senior moments that I wouldn’t want to have in a plane, and specially not with a passenger too.
When I do get my PPL, I’m very sure I will be thinking like the OP, and want to build up time, maybe even pay for instruction to check my flying, etc. before I ever take family or other passengers up with me.

I have no idea how long before I will feel solid enough that I will do that.

Would be interesting to hear what others did (not just advice, but how they experienced it) just after getting PPL, how they felt about taking passengers (if they can remember that far back) and how long before they did.

 

[LongRoadBob]

GA fatal accident rates per 100K hours are going down. Non fatals are nearly flat. (As of 2016, last year available)

I'm a low time ppl (~>100 hours). The last time I tried to take a friend up, we went around the pattern, only.

I was disappointed, he was fine with what he was able to see.

It was a vfr trip, and there were just too many low level clouds for me to feel comfortable.... Could have done circuits all day... But no destination flying. I didn't want to subject a "never flown at all" friend to the tedium.

There are risks in life. Driving a car, riding a motorcycle... you are not the only person determining whether you live another day.

In an aircraft, your chances of being fatally injured are probably 99.95+% dependent on you; not some clown drinking and driving, falling asleep at the wheel, taking the next interstate off ramp from the left lane 500 feet away from it, crossing 3 lanes of traffic.

If most car accidents happen within 5-20 miles from home, perhaps most fatal flight occurrences are likely in close proximity to airports. The rest, from going too far into conditions the pilot is not familiar with/adept at.

The few non-pilot-error accidents are so extremely rare.

Our aircraft (rented or purchased) are maintained far beyond any automobile or truck on the road (even if the last annual was pencil whipped that's more maintenance than 95% of the vehicles on the road).

You have to put oil in the plane and gas.. and a pre-flight... How many people even walk around their cars to see if one side ain't up in blocks cause someone needed a wheel and tire for their ride?

If you trust yourself and your aircraft, there is no real reason not to take a friend or loved one(s) with you.

If you don't trust your aircraft, wait for the next 100 hour inspection, and arrange to watch/help (rented). Or, watch/help with your next annual (owned).

If you don't trust yourself, get a periodic flight review from a CFI, and work on your weaknesses.

If you trust yourself and your plane, for gosh sakes.., take someone with you on a flight, share the joy! Let them make a shallow turn or two (if you're comfortable with that).... Take them over their house... over to the lake, look at the trees, get a burger...

SHARE THE JOY... It may not be possible in a few years...

Sorry for the length of this... But I felt it needed to be said.

Great points! I’m pretty sure too, as in driving a car, there is a statistical “hump” after a certain number of hours because drivers (and pilots) get to a point that they feel “I got this” and maybe get too complacent. Human nature, you do something long enough to feel very competent, and since you haven’t crashed the car or plane yet, maybe get more complacent. Not everyone, but surely some level of this.

But realizing it CAN happen can be a good guard against it maybe.

 

[CharlieD3]

@CharlieD3 its been said and read.
There is risk in everything, even standing up getting out of bed.

My point is there is greater risk in GA. People should be aware of it.

Your analysis includes great mitigating factors, but doesn’t change the actual risk. A pilot shouldn’t compare their safety record with the majors unless subjected to the same training and experience (and some do with Flight Safety stints every 6-months etc.) but the average Joe weekend pilot does not.

I never told people to quit or not share the joy. I’m acknowledging the OP and a small group who are seriously considering the risk.

Well, thanks for reading it.

I used to ride motorcycles, too. IMO, the closest feeling there is to flying.

I had an accident. Took 2 years to be able to get back to work. I don't ride anymore. It was my fault. I got "offensively defensive" trying to get away from a driver I thought was impaired. I ended up running into him as he turned left.

The judgement was mine and incorrect.

I drove the bike until the crash was over, else I wouldn't be here to talk about it.

There are those who won't get on an airliner... "What is somebody else's 'number is up'?"

As you said, there are risks in everything we do. Risk increases the further you step away from the bed you just stood up from.

If I feel "wonky" today... I ain't going flying, or takin anyone else... If the weather ain't right, we can't go. If the plane had a little squawk last time... did it get fixed?

But, I'm going to go up today if I feel right, the weather's right, the plane's good. Now, if this is a "purpose flight" I might not offer to take you...

But, if I'm offering a ride, I've done the risk assessment, taking you into "heavy consideration" in addition. I want your experience to be the best it can be.

If you wanna come along, great! We'll have a great time.... If anything gets in the way of that, say a few too many lowish clouds, well, we'll just cut it short. But, EVERYTHING we do today, will be as SAFE and ENJOYABLE as I can make it.

 

[Tommar98]

I am an instrument rated and my brother is a CFII - I work hard at being proficient (as do many I would guess who are on POA). That helps me but it doesn’t always account for the other driver in the sky or emergencies with equipment (though rarer) - GA is a very unforgiving hobby. Nonetheless I take people up all the time and yes I do tell them the real risks. I tell them what I do to try and mitigate those risks and let them know some of the areas where GA accidents mostly occur (VFR into IMC, stall-spin, etc) and how I try to avoid that.


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[Lachlan]

you don’t understand? Maybe you have been flying a very long time, but from my viewpoint I can understand. A new pilot wants to get some time under their belt, to convince themselves they really can handle everything ok much like when you first get your drivers license.
But on top of ones own confidence, there also is the non pilot view many take that small planes are dangerous. Also your wife or husband has seen you be forgetful, or make dumb mistakes and now you are flying an airplane? So on the rare chance that something bad did happen, you imagine being blamed for taking such a risk.
It doesn’t matter how many times you point out that the highway is more dangerous than a small plane, people just often don’t believe it.

Uh, nope. I married someone I know, who knew me, before we got married. We haven’t had to discover fundamental aspects about each other’s personalities AFTER the wedding. Fear of “being blamed for taking such a risk”? What are you talking about? My wife is also my best friend, and she doesn’t act like your illustrated version of an ignorant, nagging wife. So, no... I DON’T understand. If that’s what this thread is about then I truly pity the OP, and I am starting to understand the divorce rate being so high. Jeebus- marry someone you like, for f#$&’s sake. If it’s a fear of all being killed in a crash because you don’t have the skills to pilot the ship, then perhaps said pilot isn’t really a pilot yet. Being overly confident is terrible, but having low self-confidence is horrible. No one wants to fly the scary skies with Cap’n Poopypants. Maybe *that* is what this thread is about?

 

[Tommar98]

88 post do go off the rails!


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[Bill Greenwood]

I don't believe "the highway is more dangerous than a small plane". Wish it was so, but not even close. I have been a pilot for half a century, can only think of a few I know who ve, been lost in car accidents, but dozens in plane crashes.
As a pilot you do have a lot of control of the dangers, you can to a certain extent fly safer, like staying out of imc weather or doing acro down low, whereas in a car you have some control of your own driving,but not the person next to you. And auto crash is more survivable than a plane crash.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

Lachlan, its great that your wife is such a positive and tolerant woman. By the way how long has she been a pilot, how many hours does she have, how long has she had her instrument rating? How many trips to Oshkosh?
Do you mean that she is not a pilot but is willing to feel totally relaxed and confidant for you to fly your kids, if you have them? What is she using to judge how safe a trip is, for instance evaluate the weather?
If you is only relying on you, same questions, how many hours you have, how many years a pilot?

I am trying to make two points, that kids are a precious responsibility, and that there are many, many accidents with innocent family members on board.

When I checked out in a very high performance plane, my CFI was very much a confident type A person, a combat vet, Reno race winner, but he had me promise that I wouldn't take a passenger till I had 50 hours in type. 40 years later I am so thankful that I never an any way hurt a passenger, rarely may have scared a few.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@CharlieD3 we are in agreement (or at least I agree with you).

I did not likely do an appropriate risk analysis earlier. I thought I was safe but wasn’t really prepared for the decision making etc. just got lucky nothing went wrong.

Reading has helped me a lot and a strong CFII who pushed my boundaries.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Uh, nope. I married someone I know, who knew me, before we got married. We haven’t had to discover fundamental aspects about each other’s personalities AFTER the wedding. Fear of “being blamed for taking such a risk”? What are you talking about? My wife is also my best friend, and she doesn’t act like your illustrated version of an ignorant, nagging wife. So, no... I DON’T understand. If that’s what this thread is about then I truly pity the OP, and I am starting to understand the divorce rate being so high. Jeebus- marry someone you like, for f#$&’s sake. If it’s a fear of all being killed in a crash because you don’t have the skills to pilot the ship, then perhaps said pilot isn’t really a pilot yet. Being overly confident is terrible, but having low self-confidence is horrible. No one wants to fly the scary skies with Cap’n Poopypants. Maybe *that* is what this thread is about?

Well gee, aren’t you special.

You took a point, twisted it, and pretend it was mine. That’s dishonest.
There is no “illustrated version of a nagging wife” in the picture at all. There is the very real fear that many non pilots have over GA flying, small planes. You seem to think it is all black and white. Ok. Good for you.
To me the fact that you claim to not understand anyone’s hesitation for flying family members, specially if any of them have a (reasonable or not) fear of small planes, says volumes, as do your straw man arguments here.
That was incredibly witty about “Captain poopypants” maybe you will get a gold star from your kindergarten teacher. Your emotional level seems to be at about that level. You take a helluva lot for granted in your ignorant stance.

my point wasn’t solely about blame being thrown at you, but also self blame. It’s great you are a fearless steely eyed pilot, and maybe one day I will be too, but it takes time for some to feel solid about their competence and ability to handle unforeseen emergencies or difficult conditions.

 

[CharlieD3]

@CharlieD3 we are in agreement (or at least I agree with you).

I did not likely do an appropriate risk analysis earlier. I thought I was safe but wasn’t really prepared for the decision making etc. just got lucky nothing went wrong.

Reading has helped me a lot and a strong CFII who pushed my boundaries.

Yeah, I agree with you as well... I just do all the risk assessment on my own...

Non-pilots tend to think the wings will fall off, the plane will crash and burn if the pilot lets go of the yoke, or quits pedalling... "I seen those pedals on the floor, and they ain't stop and go pedals like in my car... And when we landed, the ones on my side were going back and forth..."

Or.... They flew flight simulator on their old Commodore and always went crash! Splash! At Meigs...

Flying is joyful.... Yes, there are moments of terror, some even on routine flights... There are moments of intense concentration... A go around with large antlered rats on the field comes to mind.

I told my wife, when she was just my girlfriend... On our way back from the first $100+ steak dinner at night... "You have to be quiet now, I have work to do" as we were on long final to the home drome, at night...

The joy is the thing. Faith in yourself and the craft are the prerequisites to reveal that joy.

People do stupid things... Hence, PSAs for "Turn around don't drown" "Look before you lock" and little streamers that say "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT"

 

[Lachlan]

Lachlan, its great that your wife is such a positive and tolerant woman. By the way how long has she been a pilot, how many hours does she have, how long has she had her instrument rating? How many trips to Oshkosh?
Do you mean that she is not a pilot but is willing to feel totally relaxed and confidant for you to fly your kids, if you have them? What is she using to judge how safe a trip is, for instance evaluate the weather?
If you is only relying on you, same questions, how many hours you have, how many years a pilot?

I am trying to make two points, that kids are a precious responsibility, and that there are many, many accidents with innocent family members on board.

...and there are so very many more such flights that conclude completely safely, uneventfully, and successfully. As I said, I don’t understand the fear of flying with family. Like being afraid of heights, for example. I am not, and I don’t understand it. Do I recognize it, see it, read about it? Yes. There are so many things in life to make you cower under your bed and quiver, this just ain’t one of em for me.

My wife is not a pilot, but is married to one, knows lots of other pilots, and she owns an airplane.

I knew people who were killed in car crashes, motorcycle wrecks, skiing... one of my childhood buddies almost died in a house fire when visiting another friend in July of ‘18. ICU for months, major skin grafts, permanent and horribly painful disfigurement. That said, I’m not afraid of cars, motorcycles, skiing, or our fireplace. I guess I’m just boring and careful, and unusually rational. In life you can be a pilot or a passenger. (I’m a pilot.)

I'm not saying I’m fearless*, or better at anything than anyone else. Fear is excessive worry. Excessive. Intrusive thought. Flying airplanes is fun. Fear takes the fun out of things. Maybe I have so much fun flying that I’m not smart enough to be afraid at the same time? If someone is afraid of or while flying that’s up to them to work out, and I would be hesitant to fly with a scared pilot. Careful, cautious, thorough, meticulous... let’s go. Scared, well, probably not going. Maybe.

*If anyone has an old “No Fear” shirt or an “Ain’t skeered!” decal laying around, PM me- I’ll PayPal you for it.

 

[cowman]

Imagine this, imagine when you were a kid your dad flew airplanes but he would never take you up in the airplane because it was deemed too dangerous. How would you feel about that as a child? How would you feel about it in hindsight as an adult? You'd be sad about the opportunity loss I'd imagine.

My mother died when I was very young. I'm not sure if this was the reason but my father was very risk adverse about everything- even stuff very unlikely to happen. I can tell you as an adult it makes me sad about all the times we could have had but didn't. I wish I could go back in time and beg him to take the risk. Either way I won't do that with my kid. I won't skirt thunderstorms or go scud running with him or anything but I won't deny him the opportunity to experience something incredible.

I'm no daredevil, I'm really chicken about a lot of things. I value my own life greatly, but I also know there's more to living than just surviving. If it's safe enough for me, it's safe enough for him.

 

[jpskies]

Imagine this, imagine when you were a kid your dad flew airplanes but he would never take you up in the airplane because it was deemed too dangerous. How would you feel about that as a child? How would you feel about it in hindsight as an adult? You'd be sad about the opportunity loss I'd imagine.

You remind me of this dad and his 4-year-old daughter. Everyone ask yourself do you feel fear or fun when you watch it?
It's "serious fun" to me....You have to be serious on flying (so you apply all the risk mitigation), then the fun comes after. If you fear, it's better not doing it, for yourself and for your family.

One more point about the risk from the risk management point of view:
You cannot change the total risk, however, you can apply counter measure to reduce the risks. The left over is called Residual Risk. Here is the formula:

[Residual Risk] = [Total Risk] - [Counter Measure]
where
[Counter Measure] are "risk mitigation" (such as flight training, apply all you learn from flying, weather avoidance...etc), and "risk transferring" (such as buying insurance)

If you apply good enough counter measure, the residual risk for GA flying can be much smaller than driving. And the residual risk is the focal point for making a do-or-not-do decision for yourself, your family or for any business.

 

[LongRoadBob]

I think as often happens, people are polarizing this to where it is not the same issue anymore.
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone actually advocate for never taking your family up for a flight.

The issue here is how soon one feels comfortable with it after getting your PPL. Obviously, since we are all different, there are some that may want to and do fly their family the day they get their PPL. I think many probably might feel they want to build up some time first. At 63 I believe (this may change when it actually happens) when I finally get my PPL I do think I’d want to fly solo a good deal before I took up family. When you build up confidence that if a crosswind developed at your home field after takeoff you can handle it well or make the right call, or if something happens, etc.

My biggest regret is Not starting flying lessons until after my father, a pilot, passed away. I always wanted to learn to fly, but most of my youth was living hand to mouth and never had the funds. Then I forgot until I one day realized I could afford it. I would have so loved talking to my dad on the phone, getting tips, asking him more about his flying. I grew up with him flying us in a c172. So many great memories from that time. Recently looked him up in the database, and was surprised to find out he got his PPL in ‘63. I was then 7 years old. I thought we flew since I was younger, always flew. So he must have started flying with us as passengers almost as soon as he got his. Then again, I think he flew for the “Naval Air Force” in the late 40’s or so, but I can’t ask him now. Before he passed he took me up the last time in I think 2004 or something. He was old, and still a very good pilot.

my wife is eager to fly with me when I complete and have my PPL. Grandkids too. I’ll see how I feel when I complete, and just make sure I feel solid and confident.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

@LongRoadBob I got my license in 1993. FAA database says 2010 which is when I got an updated certificate with a new pilot # (as opposed to my SSN).

I think if you get an IR or Commercial etc., glider rating, anything with a new piece of paper, the date likely changes.

Maybe he converted his military ticket to FAA ticket in 1963?

 

[James331]

@LongRoadBob I got my license in 1993. FAA database says 2010 which is when I git an updated certificate with a new pilot # (as opposed to my SSN).

I think if you get an IR or Commercial etc., glider rating, anything with a new piece of paper, the date likely changes.

Maybe he converted his military ticket to FAA ticket in 1963?

If you update your address it also changes the date

 

[LongRoadBob]

@LongRoadBob I got my license in 1993. FAA database says 2010 which is when I got an updated certificate with a new pilot # (as opposed to my SSN).

I think if you get an IR or Commercial etc., glider rating, anything with a new piece of paper, the date likely changes.

Maybe he converted his military ticket to FAA ticket in 1963?

If you update your address it also changes the date

thanks guys! I didn’t know that and that probably is what happened.

 

[Bill Greenwood]

Lachlan, I love to fly with people and my family especially. My Son now 36 came to Osh this year for the first time in 10 years, with his fiancé and they rode in the tri motor and went to the sea plane base, etc. But the only reason we didn't go in a B-17 was the price and the fact that they no longer fly out of Oshkosh. We could have just about as likely been on the Collings 17, I have not only ridden on that plane, I got to fly it a bit, great thrill. Some very good pilots then. My boys have flown so much that they don't think anymore about getting in the plane than a car.

But there is risk, a hell of a lot more than airlines and more than driving. One Son is a ski racer, and has had some crashes, but 70 mph on skis is a lot less than 170 in an airplane. He also road races 170 mph motorcycles and I hate it, its thrilling and hes won some, but has gone to emergency room 3 times. And he doesn't take a 3 year old on the back of the cycle. By the way its got 190 hp and weighs under 400 lbs.
If you really are careful and use the best judgement you can cut down the risk a lot. I have countless times stopped a trip to stay in a hotel if weather is bad, or never left home.
You may be as good a pilot as you think you are. but the real question is do you have the judgement and use the discipline not to do dumb things like bad weather or low alt acro, when your family is in there.
Doing risky flying because your wife is a good sport and trusts you doesn't take the danger away. If she grew up on a farm and is a natural type vegan, doesn't make drinking unpasteurized milk safer.
There is no bigger compliment as a pilot than to have people ask you to fly their wife or children, but there is no bigger responsibility. If you want to sit down with me at Oshkosh I can tell you what it feels like to tell the wife of a good friend her husband is not coming back this day.
Did you see the recent award winning series by Ken Burns on Vietnam? One scene that struck me was '64 and gen HotAir saying we should wing the war in 6 months while Ho Chi Minh said we are prepared to fight 20 years if needed. One ignored danger and one faced it honestly.

 

[GeorgeC]

Any advice from those that have been down this path is greatly appreciated.

Fly planes with harnesses or at least shoulder belts.