Anxiety

[Henning]

Anyways, I'd like to comment on one of the posts about "not killing a bunch of people" and "aviation may not be your cup of tea".

I'm not a quitter. I work hard, and I always have. I like to fly, just not alone. I'll use my nervousness to my advantage - I'll be extra cautious during walkarounds, and I'll learn as much as I can about my airplane. Thanks for the post, Henning. I feel challenged.

Well, I really hope you read that entire NTSB report, because I see parallels, the primary one being this "I haven't been taught" crap. NEVER rely on anyone to teach you anything, how do you know what you're being taught is correct and/or complete? Study and teach yourself. On that flight the Capt had been "taught" the systems of the Jetstream, yet he didn't know that when the "Engine Relight" light comes on, it doesn't reset and go out when the engine relights, rather that it resets with the SRL computer and will stay on even with the engine running again. He also failed to verify that the engine wasn't making power, they died flying single engine in an airplane that had two working engines. This all boils down to a person who didn't take lead, control or responsibility for his own education and relied on what was fed to him which wasn't complete.

If you feel challenged, good, but I hope you fell challenged to the appropriate ends, and get off your butt and take control of your education. It's up to you to learn VOR navigation and everything else, it's NOT up to anybody else to teach it to you. With the state of flight training the way it is, relying on what your instructors teach you is a sure fired route to your grave. This is an uncompromising activity, you do it right or you die. You get six mistakes in a row, then they bury your dead a--. Now get off it and read and study and learn, no slacking, no excuses, no "but I haven't been taught". F- that, you don't need to be taught, you need to learn. It's all on you and noone else, just you, all of it. Understand that well.

 

[TMetzinger]

You should NOT go on your solo X/C until you know how to navigate by something other than pilotage and ded reckoning. I would consider knowing how to use the GPS or VOR a requirement for a solo X/C flight, unless pilotage is ridiculously easy in your area, like taking off and following a major road or river all the way to your destination airport.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'll climb on this one. I had wrongly assumed you had been taught use of VORs but possibly not use of VOR checkpoints on a visual course. You've gotta learn efficient use of the nav equipment. If you do get lost, that will save you and make it easier for ATC to help you.

I think your CFI is doing a huge disservice by not teaching VORs to you already. That doesn't mean you have to use it. But, you need to know how to use it. Don't do the solo XC without that knowledge.

I have to wonder how well you know other aircraft systems. How well do you understand the instruments and how they work? How well do you know various aircraft systems and how each operates? Understanding and interpretation of problems during flight is going to help you know what is happening and help you inform ATC what is happening. These are all things important for the safety of flight and for you to be a proficient pilot. More so, they are barely the surface.

 

[RMCN172RG]

My first solo cross country involved VOR and Pilotage. On the pilotage part I had also determined VOR corss radials for my landmarks so I could be sure which little city I was really over.

The Solo was flown the day after I flew the same flught plan with my CFI on board.

His way of being sure I knew where I was going.

 

[TMetzinger]

Another good point - you SHOULD have made this flight before with your CFI. Please tell me he's not sending you for your first solo X/C to somewhere you haven't been together?

 

[AdamZ]

Unregistered, I have a few questions and I don't mean to jab at you but I to am curious at the quality of education you are getting.

1) Are you learing from a flight school either 141 or 61 or are you learning from an independent CFI?

2) If its a school have you flown with a check pilot OTHER than your CFI to verify you are ready for the next stage?

3) Do you understand the terms " dead reckoning" and "pilotage"?

Henning is correct that you are incharge of your own education, in otherwords you are incharge of your own life but I do think that a flight school or CFI needs to give you some idea of how your training should progress. Do you have a syllabus? I know I was ALWAYS reading ahead.

something is not sitting right with me and I am really wondering where the flaw is. You used the term " Maps" I know it may sound trivial but in the 5-6 years I have been flying I have never heard a student or pilot refer to a chart as a map. Again I no necessarily knocking you but really wondering about you educational situation. I agree you probably shouldnt be able to follow the GPS on your XC and should use pilotage and dead reckoning but no way in hell was I allowed on mine without undertanding and demonstating VOR tracking and radials. I'd see about flying with the Chief Instructor for a flight or two of course if your not with a flight school theres not going to be any chief instructor.

I am sorry but I strongly urge you to get your pilot educational situation under control before heading out on any Solo XCs. Perhaps a visit to another flight school just to compare would be helpful.

 

[AdamZ]

Another good point - you SHOULD have made this flight before with your CFI. Please tell me he's not sending you for your first solo X/C to somewhere you haven't been together?

Yeah I'd like to know this as well.

By the way unregistered were not trying to bash you but something is really amiss here and if we can get to the root of it perhaps we can help point you in the right direction and save you lots of money, time or your life.

 

[Henning]

1) Are you learing from a flight school either 141 or 61 or are you learning from an independent CFI?........something is not sitting right with me.

Me neither, and from what he was saying, he's in some college program. There's some really fishy stuff in this entire turn of the thread. If this is all real, the primary problem is "unregistered"s (???why unregistered?) attitude about all this. As you pointed out, chart vs. map, was he taught "map", or just can't be bothered with the differentiation. Lots of things here don't smell good to me. I maybe way off base, but I suspect a troll (and a good one) or a dead man walking if he doesn't change his entire mental outlook about all this. If a person isn't confident, exacting and proactive, they have no business in an airplane, much less a commercial operation. Flying is about nothing if it isn't about attitude. In my experience though, most people are not able to make those kinds of changes to their personality, it's just in how we're wired up by nature.

 

[gprellwitz]

I maybe way off base, but I suspect a troll (and a good one)

I admit the thought's gone through my mind too, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because, if he isn't a troll, I suspect he needs some benefits!

Flying is about nothing if it isn't about attitude.

And you should know! (BTW, listened to your Pilotcast on Friday in the airport. Really enjoyed it!)

 

[Henning]

I admit the thought's gone through my mind too, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because, if he isn't a troll, I suspect he needs some benefits! And you should know! (BTW, listened to your Pilotcast on Friday in the airport. Really enjoyed it!)

Yeah, that's why I'm not ignoring it, because the guy sounds like the reincarnation of the guy who killed my buddy, and if he is, I wanna keep him out of an airplane for his own good and everybody elses. If not, he really needs to wake up and completely change the way he's approaching aviation from the ground up. The attitude and approach being put forward is unacceptable.

I may have a bunch of attitude, but I'm alive.

Pilotcast 62....I couldn't believe it's an hour 15.

 

[Everskyward]

Another good point - you SHOULD have made this flight before with your CFI. Please tell me he's not sending you for your first solo X/C to somewhere you haven't been together?

All my solo X-C flights, including my first, were to somewhere I had never been with my CFI. I don't see anything wrong with that. When I instructed I had students pick out places they had never been before. That said, I knew how to use a VOR and so did they.

 

[Henning]

All my solo X-C flights, including my first, were to somewhere I had never been with my CFI. I don't see anything wrong with that. When I instructed I had students pick out places they had never been before. That said, I knew how to use a VOR and so did they.

Yeah, personally I think doing a solo X/C to somewhere you've already been, especially along the same routing to me kind of defeats the purpose of sending them.

 

[TMetzinger]

Hmm - interesting Mari. Nearly every school here has the first solo X-C as a duplicate of a previous dual X/C. This was done as a confidence booster and to minimize anxiety. The follow on X/Cs were to new places.

 

[Henning]

Hmm - interesting Mari. Nearly every school here has the first solo X-C as a duplicate of a previous dual X/C. This was done as a confidence booster and to minimize anxiety. The follow on X/Cs were to new places.

Mine wasn't either, somewhere new for all my solo X/Cs, though my first was one you couldn't hardly get lost on, fly from Long Beach to Carlsbad CA, basically fly along the beach and look left, can't hardly miss it.

 

[Everskyward]

Hmm - interesting Mari. Nearly every school here has the first solo X-C as a duplicate of a previous dual X/C. This was done as a confidence booster and to minimize anxiety. The follow on X/Cs were to new places.

Remember, I learned how to fly light years ago, and it's also been a long, long time since I instructed primary students so I don't have any idea how they do it now. I think in the intervening years people have become more cautious and worried about various things. Some of that is a good thing. The airplane I learned to fly in had one com, one VOR and that was it; no ADF, no DME, and Al Gore hadn't invented the GPS yet. Yes, I was anxious about my solo X-Cs and I got temporarily misplaced at least once if not more times. However, going to new places was presented to me as an adventure and a challenge and since I didn't know any differently I went along with it.

 

[KennyFlys]

All my solo X-C flights, including my first, were to somewhere I had never been with my CFI. I don't see anything wrong with that. When I instructed I had students pick out places they had never been before. That said, I knew how to use a VOR and so did they.

I have no problem with that but I'd rather they learn from scratch with different experiences. I was at a school for a short time where the Indian students were sent repeatedly on the same route for all dual and solo cross-country flights. One student wanted me to make the last dual on a particular route "again" so he would be comfortable on his solo cross-country.

Regardless, I'd never turn a student loose at all who could not demonstrate a clear understanding of what they are flying and its systems as well as how to use them. That is clearly what is happening here and I have huge problems with that as do several others.

 

[Everskyward]

I was at a school for a short time where the Indian students were sent repeatedly on the same route for all dual and solo cross-country flights. One student wanted me to make the last dual on a particular route "again" so he would be comfortable on his solo cross-country.

I don't see any problem with repeating a route again if a student has confidence or competence issues but I think they eventually need to do an original route on their own. What are then going to do after they get their certificate, only go to familiar places?

Regardless, I'd never turn a student loose at all who could not demonstrate a clear understanding of what they are flying and its systems as well as how to use them. That is clearly what is happening here and I have huge problems with that as do several others.

I'm in complete agreement with that.

 

[KennyFlys]

I don't see any problem with repeating a route again if a student has confidence or competence issues but I think they eventually need to do an original route on their own. What are then going to do after they get their certificate, only go to familiar places?

We agree. My issue with the student I had was he had been on that route. Twice. He wanted to do it again before a solo cross-country.

Ummmm...

We need to look at why you're not capable and/or competent to plot and fly a new course.

I should add, shortly after that I was informed by the *extremely upper management* they preferred it this way... for a reduced liability risk. This was my first sign I may have been working for a ticket mill for those who really didn't want to study or succeed.

 

[Everskyward]

I should add, shortly after that I was informed by the *extremely upper management* they preferred it this way... for a reduced liability risk. This was my first sign I may have been working for a ticket mill for those who really didn't want to study or succeed.

So what are they going to do when they finish the program? Eventually pilots need to go out on their own... or quit. Or are they going back to India to become low time FOs?

 

[KennyFlys]

So what are they going to do when they finish the program? Eventually pilots need to go out on their own... or quit. Or are they going back to India to become low time FOs?[/quote]
You've got it. Sad, huh?

I saw one guy head back with 268TT and 45ME to begin training on an Airbus. ASA will talk with you for that plus a CFI ticket but you'll be teaching for quite a while before they take it any further. They use that period to take a closer look at you.

 

[Everskyward]

You've got it. Sad, huh?

I saw one guy head back with 268TT and 45ME to begin training on an Airbus.

I haven't figured out what I think about this yet. I can't imagine myself with 268 or even 2680 hours getting in an Airbus, but I have a very different background. Except for the ratings which I got sporadically, I was pretty much on my own and self-taught. Maybe with a concentrated and focused training program people can accomplish that. Still, it doesn't seem as if it's a good idea to have people who are afraid to do a solo X-C to an airport they have never seen before to be flying passengers around. I guess the other side is that they will be supervised for a long time and by the time they get to be a Captain they will have flown the route thousands of times so it won't be unfamiliar...

 

[KennyFlys]

I haven't figured out what I think about this yet. I can't imagine myself with 268 or even 2680 hours getting in an Airbus, but I have a very different background. Except for the ratings which I got sporadically, I was pretty much on my own and self-taught. Maybe with a concentrated and focused training program people can accomplish that. Still, it doesn't seem as if it's a good idea to have people who are afraid to do a solo X-C to an airport they have never seen before to be flying passengers around. I guess the other side is that they will be supervised for a long time and by the time they get to be a Captain they will have flown the route thousands of times so it won't be unfamiliar...

I'll take it a step further. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why the Indian government is sending such kids over here for flight training. The majority have no business being in the cockpit. Most don't want to study. They pass tests by pure memorization. They can't get past rote memory.

On a rainy day, I wanted a girl to explain instruments followed by troubleshooting scenarios. She said she couldn't just then but she could read the book and tell me. She was a beautiful, sweet girl. But, she had no business learning to fly. At least, not with the limited effort being put forth. I wish I still had access to those records to see if there's any progress at all. I rather doubt it. I asked the same girl what happens during a stall. She started rambling off the procedure checklist... verbatim. My eyes just rolled.

I'm very reluctant to deal with such students again. I'll train them as soon as they prove to me they are willing to put the effort into learning through understanding and not applying just because the list says to do it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hmm - interesting Mari. Nearly every school here has the first solo X-C as a duplicate of a previous dual X/C. This was done as a confidence booster and to minimize anxiety. The follow on X/Cs were to new places.

Every one of my solo X/C's was to someplace new. That said, my CFI had done everything possible on the dual X/C's to get me discombobulated, and I wasn't having any confidence issues.

This was in 2003, Mari, so I don't think it's necessarily a matter of your training being a few years before mine, although I agree that there probably have been changes in many places as a result of liability concerns. Sigh.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Thanks for your posts.

I haven't been taught VORs yet. Yes, there is GPS onboard, and I'm flying a Cessna 172. Also, haven't learned "flight following" yet. I don't know how much ATC could help because I'll be flying to uncontrolled/MF airports.

This makes no sense. You should learn to use all the equipment in your airplane for this trip. That includes the nav and comm radios. Start talking to ATC for flight following now. Use those magic words "Student pilot" when you call up. Then you are not flying alone. Start tracking to and from VORs now.

I'm including a link to my first cross-country solo story. This is not to suggest that everything was done perfectly. It is just to show you are not really alone if you have Flight Following. http://auntpeggy.home.att.net/soloxc1.html

 

[Everskyward]

I'll take it a step further. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why the Indian government is sending such kids over here for flight training. The majority have no business being in the cockpit. Most don't want to study. They pass tests by pure memorization. They can't get past rote memory.

How much of this inability to explain concepts do you think is caused by the fact that they are not native English speakers? I think that being able to read and get along conversationally in another language is much easier than being able to explain complex technical concepts. I've taught, worked with, and been in class with some very intelligent, motivated, non-native English speakers who sometimes had to have things explained a time or two more, using slightly different words, because of the language barrier. This may not be the case with the students you saw, but I think it can be a factor sometimes.

 

[KennyFlys]

How much of this inability to explain concepts do you think is caused by the fact that they are not native English speakers? I think that being able to read and get along conversationally in another language is much easier than being able to explain complex technical concepts. I've taught, worked with, and been in class with some very intelligent, motivated, non-native English speakers who sometimes had to have things explained a time or two more, using slightly different words, because of the language barrier. This may not be the case with the students you saw, but I think it can be a factor sometimes.

I actually brought that up with a couple students. They informed me most of their school studying in India was in English. I had the same concerns. The accents were sometimes strong but they knew the words and how to speak them. If anything, the accents made it difficult for me to understand what was sometimes said along with ATC listening. We usually got past these with a couple passes. The funny thing was, I had no accent from their perspective.

I have sadly disappointed my adopted redneck leanings by not having a southern accent as heard by those students.