Another what (floating) plane should I buy thread!

porttack

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porttack
To start with, I am student pilot that is getting ahead of himself, but the available rental planes don't cover many of missions I'd like to do.

  1. Operate off a salt water mooring for part of the year.
  2. Regular runs between Reno and San Francisco, likely in IMC conditions as well. About 300 miles, including over mountains.
  3. Operate off of gravel runways. I think this is difficult for most float planes?
  4. Payload of at least 550lbs, two big guys and some baggage.
  5. Occasional runs between San Francisco and Long Beach. About 400 miles.

Options that would be nice.
  • Ability to run on mogas, due to off airport operation.
  • Payload of ~900lbs to bring along a couple more people and gear occasionally.
  • Range/Speed for long cross countries. i.e. San Francisco to Austin.
Budgetwise... I am thinking of a single or twin piston, under 150k if possible and hopefully under $200/hr. I haven't really seen many twins that fit the bill. So far I am leaning towards an experimental Searay with a 914, but greater range, speed and payload would all be nice.
 
The desire to cross the SIerras in IMC is a show stopper for virtually anything amphibious. When the Sierras are socked in, anything less than turbine power that can climb over the wx is too little.

Not something a turbo piston can cover? I have seen a few turbine conversion Grumman twins and a Seawind. Not really sure what to expect costwise for something like that though.
 
Such an airplane does not exist within that price range. It sounds like you are looking for FIKI as well - A newer 206 (with the turbo) on amphibs could do it without FIKI. With FIKI theres a turbine mallard for sale on controller right now, but I suspect the asking price is somewhere between 3 and 5 million.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26071501/1948-grumman-turbine-mallard

Crossing the Sierras is possible with your budget, and a nice amphib is possible on your budget. Take your pick.
 
Such an airplane does not exist within that price range. It sounds like you are looking for FIKI as well - A newer 206 (with the turbo) on amphibs could do it without FIKI. With FIKI theres a turbine mallard for sale on controller right now, but I suspect the asking price is somewhere between 3 and 5 million.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26071501/1948-grumman-turbine-mallard

Crossing the Sierras is possible with your budget, and a nice amphib is possible on your budget. Take your pick.

Mostly planning on summer crosses. Not sure if FIKI would be generally be needed in IMC then? I will need to learn a good deal more about it.

For the amphib float planes like the 206 does an unpaved runway present any issue? It seems like the tiny wheels and low clearance could be a problem, but I haven't see anyone talking about it.


That is neat setup, would make salt water somewhat less worrying!
 
  1. Operate off a salt water mooring for part of the year.
  2. Regular runs between Reno and San Francisco, likely in IMC conditions as well. About 300 miles, including over mountains.
  3. Operate off of gravel runways. I think this is difficult for most float planes?
  4. Payload of at least 550lbs, two big guys and some baggage.
  5. Occasional runs between San Francisco and Long Beach. About 400 miles.
  • Ability to run on mogas, due to off airport operation.
  • Payload of ~900lbs to bring along a couple more people and gear occasionally.
  • Range/Speed for long cross countries. i.e. San Francisco to Austin.
Budgetwise... I am thinking of a single or twin piston, under 150k if possible and hopefully under $200/hr. I haven't really seen many twins that fit the bill. So far I am leaning towards an experimental Searay with a 914, but greater range, speed and payload would all be nice.

Whoo. That's a tall order to get all of that in a single airplane for that budget. Or at all.

1) Salt water would push me towards composites (like a Seawind), or at least composite floats, and it's going to cost you time and money in maintenance. Salt water is nasty stuff.
2) IFR should be possible in many seaplanes, though you might have trouble getting down through the marine layer. I know Max Trescott got his ATP-AMES a couple of years ago, so he might be able to fill you in on whether there are any seaplane bases out there that have approaches. Or are you looking to land at SFO or another land airport in that area?
3) Yes, doing this is not the forte of an amphib. You would probably be beating the crap out of the floats if you did this. But, if you're not looking to fly from a gravel runway to a waterway, there are plenty of bush planes that get moved between floats, bushwheels, and skis at different parts of the year. Would that work for you?
4) So, no LSAs, and no Citabrias/172s or any of the smaller/lower powered floatplanes. You need a C180 or 182, minimum.
5) That shouldn't be much problem for the planes we're talking about.
6) OK, so now we're restricting the high end, since you won't likely find something >250hp that can run mogas.
7) Forget it. If you want this, you're probably going to need a turbine. Or, at least something like a de Havilland Otter or Beaver, or Pilatus PC-6. In any case, I doubt you'll find any of these within your budget.
8) Seaplanes are slow. You either have a big honking set of floats out there causing a ton of drag, or your fuselage is shaped like a boat hull, which will also cause a lot of drag. The Seawind is probably the best for speed, and if you find one with a turbine or at least a turbo you can get up high for the long trips and get some pretty good speed... But it's gonna be 50 knots slower than an otherwise-equivalent landplane.

I think a Seawind or a Cessna 180/182/185 on composite floats would likely be your best bet, though both will stretch both your purchase and hourly budget. Neither will be good at gravel runways, but the C180/C185 can be pulled off the floats and put on wheels for that if you so choose. The I think the C180 can get a Mogas STC, but none of the Cessnas are going to be great for the really long cross countries - The Seawind will easily outrun them. But, the Seawind would be a terrible plane to take to a gravel runway and can't burn mogas.

A potentially better option would be to buy TWO airplanes. If you can split the cross-country mission from the "fun backcountry" mission, and you don't need to operate from water and gravel on the same day, and your higher-payload missions are the cross countries, you might be able to do something like a Comanche 250/260 for the cross countries and something more suited for strictly backcountry flying, and still stay within the total budget.
 
Mostly planning on summer crosses. Not sure if FIKI would be generally be needed in IMC then? I will need to learn a good deal more about it.

For the amphib float planes like the 206 does an unpaved runway present any issue? It seems like the tiny wheels and low clearance could be a problem, but I haven't see anyone talking about it.



That is neat setup, would make salt water somewhat less worrying!
Good luck finding an amphib 206 for less than 150k.
 
Move to Oakland, or Alameda, buy a regular plane, base it at KOAK and forget the seaplane nonsense. Hate to be a dream squasher, but this is the most practical, affordable and likely outcome.
 
http://www.aztecnomad.com/nomad.html

scan8.jpg
 
Can you stretch your budget to a FIKI Caravan on floats? It's only like, you know, $4 million bucks. Hopefully the wheels won't fall off on the unpaved stuff?
 
Whoo. That's a tall order to get all of that in a single airplane for that budget. Or at all.

1) Salt water would push me towards composites (like a Seawind), or at least composite floats, and it's going to cost you time and money in maintenance. Salt water is nasty stuff.
2) IFR should be possible in many seaplanes, though you might have trouble getting down through the marine layer. I know Max Trescott got his ATP-AMES a couple of years ago, so he might be able to fill you in on whether there are any seaplane bases out there that have approaches. Or are you looking to land at SFO or another land airport in that area?
3) Yes, doing this is not the forte of an amphib. You would probably be beating the crap out of the floats if you did this. But, if you're not looking to fly from a gravel runway to a waterway, there are plenty of bush planes that get moved between floats, bushwheels, and skis at different parts of the year. Would that work for you?
4) So, no LSAs, and no Citabrias/172s or any of the smaller/lower powered floatplanes. You need a C180 or 182, minimum.
5) That shouldn't be much problem for the planes we're talking about.
6) OK, so now we're restricting the high end, since you won't likely find something >250hp that can run mogas.
7) Forget it. If you want this, you're probably going to need a turbine. Or, at least something like a de Havilland Otter or Beaver, or Pilatus PC-6. In any case, I doubt you'll find any of these within your budget.
8) Seaplanes are slow. You either have a big honking set of floats out there causing a ton of drag, or your fuselage is shaped like a boat hull, which will also cause a lot of drag. The Seawind is probably the best for speed, and if you find one with a turbine or at least a turbo you can get up high for the long trips and get some pretty good speed... But it's gonna be 50 knots slower than an otherwise-equivalent landplane.

I think a Seawind or a Cessna 180/182/185 on composite floats would likely be your best bet, though both will stretch both your purchase and hourly budget. Neither will be good at gravel runways, but the C180/C185 can be pulled off the floats and put on wheels for that if you so choose. The I think the C180 can get a Mogas STC, but none of the Cessnas are going to be great for the really long cross countries - The Seawind will easily outrun them. But, the Seawind would be a terrible plane to take to a gravel runway and can't burn mogas.

A potentially better option would be to buy TWO airplanes. If you can split the cross-country mission from the "fun backcountry" mission, and you don't need to operate from water and gravel on the same day, and your higher-payload missions are the cross countries, you might be able to do something like a Comanche 250/260 for the cross countries and something more suited for strictly backcountry flying, and still stay within the total budget.

The primary Reno <> San Francisco mission would ideally be gravel to water. Looking to be able to run from a ranch to yacht club. The more I look at it it seems like a purely fair weather run. The only nearby seaplane base does not have instrument approaches (and is private).

Two planes does seem like a more reasonable approach.

A VW bug. It will make the trip in any weather, runs on mogas and operates on gravel. It can carry the payload and it floats. The flying part is a sticking point however.
If only it would float indefinitely.
Move to Oakland, or Alameda, buy a regular plane, base it at KOAK and forget the seaplane nonsense. Hate to be a dream squasher, but this is the most practical, affordable and likely outcome.

By far the most practical, but it lacks the appeal of a plane floating just off the yacht club deck, even if that requires rebudgeting (if possible at all...).
 
By far the most practical, but it lacks the appeal of a plane floating just off the yacht club deck, even if that requires rebudgeting (if possible at all...).

Have you asked the yacht club if seaplanes are even allowed in the marina yet?
 
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Have you asked the yacht club if seaplanes are even allowed in the marina yet?
Not in the marina, but no issue with them on the moorings.
For that, you’re going to need more money.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/manufacturer/grumman/model/g44-widgeon

65-E7-D0-EE-8308-4-F59-A5-F0-1-A7162-D2957-B.jpg


Or maybe this is a VERY good deal? My thoughts are it might not be, but it’s exactly your price

https://www.barnstormers.com/Grumman, Widgeon Classifieds.htm


With your range, payload, salt water (probably ruffer water too) condition, gravel (presuming it’s not crazy huge rocks), IMC, it would be pushing what I’d want to do in my skywagon.

That does seem a little too good to be true. Also, any idea what the operating costs would be like? I am guessing $400/hr?

Seeming like I have issues that needs more money thrown at them all around.
 
Not in the marina, but no issue with them on the moorings.


That does seem a little too good to be true. Also, any idea what the operating costs would be like? I am guessing $400/hr?

Seeming like I have issues that needs more money thrown at them all around.

Once you own it, don’t think it would be too crazy compared to other twins, those planes are pretty overbuilt and simple, think the biggest issue would be the initial nut and that they aren’t super fast, but thus is the nature of the animal you’re talking about.
Think the G44 might be the best fit for that mission without asking too much of the plane.

That said, outside of the $$ and plane, you’re combining long IFR flights with quasi backcountry and amphib ops, this isn’t exactly basic 101 level flying.
 
That said, outside of the $$ and plane, you’re combining long IFR flights with quasi backcountry and amphib ops, this isn’t exactly basic 101 level flying.

I fully expect to be spending quite a bit of time CFIs over the next couple years before trying to really make this dream a reality.
 
Not in the marina, but no issue with them on the moorings.

Wow. I couldn't imagine the maintenance nightmares there. Ask people that maintain airplanes that are just parked outside by the ocean on land. That's bad enough, but soaking in it?! What about all the crap that grows on the bottom in the water? I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody moors seaplanes long term in the water. It just sounds like asking for trouble.
 
Have you considered a Lake Renegade? Not sure about their gravel strip performance but since the engine is mounted high, probably little issue with rocks and debris making your prop look like it flew through flak. I think the later models have 250hp and maybe 270. I think they true out at about 130 kts or so. Any Lake drivers care to chime in? I always thought they were pretty cool. I have a house on Lake Coeur d’ Alene, Idaho thought I would buy one to commute to my job in the TriCities. And then I discover the cost of insurance premiums and that put an end to that.
 
Not sure what the conversion costs, but their site lists the price with a used plan as $475K-$625K. Probably can't run it for $200/hr either, and the amphib version isn't approved yet.

Not the amphib, but the used straight float versions sell cheap. Just like a standard wheeled Aztec. Lot of plane for the money. But let's acknowledge that ANYTHING on straight floats or amphibs is never really all that cheap.

And the OP's "salt water, IMC, gravel airstrip, etc" requirements add mucho $ to the solution.
 
Wow. I couldn't imagine the maintenance nightmares there. Ask people that maintain airplanes that are just parked outside by the ocean on land. That's bad enough, but soaking in it?! What about all the crap that grows on the bottom in the water? I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody moors seaplanes long term in the water. It just sounds like asking for trouble.
I am assuming it will be similar to a aluminum (or composite if I am lucky) boat. Fresh water rinse as possible, aggressive electrolysis management, a hard slick bottom paint and a regular diver. And of course chasing corrosion issues until the end of time. Not sure if I am badly underestimating the degree of problems though.

Have you considered a Lake Renegade? Not sure about their gravel strip performance but since the engine is mounted high, probably little issue with rocks and debris making your prop look like it flew through flak. I think the later models have 250hp and maybe 270. I think they true out at about 130 kts or so. Any Lake drivers care to chime in? I always thought they were pretty cool. I have a house on Lake Coeur d’ Alene, Idaho thought I would buy one to commute to my job in the TriCities. And then I discover the cost of insurance premiums and that put an end to that.

The lakes seem like an interesting option, but from the bit I have read about them they require near calm water.

What did you see on the cost of insurance? I think I saw something saying to expect 3-4k/y, which didn't seem too bad.
 
I am assuming it will be similar to a aluminum (or composite if I am lucky) boat. Fresh water rinse as possible, aggressive electrolysis management, a hard slick bottom paint and a regular diver. And of course chasing corrosion issues until the end of time. Not sure if I am badly underestimating the degree of problems though.



The lakes seem like an interesting option, but from the bit I have read about them they require near calm water.

What did you see on the cost of insurance? I think I saw something saying to expect 3-4k/y, which didn't seem too bad.
I got an “estimate” from AOPA and Avemco. AOPA was like $5500-$6500 and Avemco was $6000-$8500 per year. An IR would drop the rate by 10% or so. Both were based on a hull value of $150K. IIRC, both AOPA’s carriers and Avemco required about 20 hrs in type transition training beyond a seaplane rating. I think @James331 mentioned in a post some time ago, some amphibian pilots carry only liability and not hull insurance because of the high premiums. As to a Renegade being only a calm water performer, my understanding is that boat-hulled amphibians can deal with more wave action than pontoon based amphibians. Then again I could be completely wrong or have it a$$ backwards. You might want to check out the Lake club website. They have a number of informative articles and address topics like training, insurance, etc.
 
Wow. I couldn't imagine the maintenance nightmares there. Ask people that maintain airplanes that are just parked outside by the ocean on land. That's bad enough, but soaking in it?! What about all the crap that grows on the bottom in the water? I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody moors seaplanes long term in the water. It just sounds like asking for trouble.

Lots of floatplanes spend tons of time in saltwater in WA, BC, AK
 
Have owned 5 Lakes, last was a Renegade which is the best of the bunch, 250HP with the Turbo being 270. They can handle more than calm water but one cringes with the sound of waves slapping the hull. Never insured except for liability.
The quotes for a value of 200K were in the 8000 to 9000 range, despite an IR and taking the Lake Factory course with annual recurrent training. This was despite many many hours in Lakes. Haven't checked recently the price may be down now. As noted before they do well on grass and gravel and the prop is up and away and shielded by the fuselage. With proper technique one can minimize the spray into the propeller, not so in the Cessnas including the Caravan.
All bolts need to be tight on the engine cowling to prevent an expensive pass through the propeller. Always used Lock tight and checked routinely. After an engine change out a mechanic left a loose bolt is the cowling came out and required a blade replacement. Threw the bolt into the turtle deck and left a nice ding there. Decent IFR platform, as slow and plenty of time to make corrections. Don't like climbing with any alacrity much above 7000 or 8000 feet unless turbocharged.
Hope this helps a little bit.
 
How about the mighty Seabee? The looks only a mother could love.
a04d2ddaedea43eda5b9f807f092c284.jpg
 
"Lots of time" as in normally based at a mooring in the ocean in place of a tie down?

Most working floatplanes are not amphibs, many are based out of salt water, lots don’t have a option to pull them out with a truck every night. That said when winter comes lots also go back to land planes.

l_1351525.jpg
 
And are not being operated and maintained by a private pilot...

You don’t need two planes, you need a plane and a boat. Boats are designed to sit in salt water, airplanes really aren’t. Please tell me more about this marina that welcomes seaplanes. I’d love to google it and see how feasible it is to get in and out of by seaplane. More familiar with boat operation in South Florida but in no place around here would that be feasible.
 
If you really want to big d**k it at the marina:

upload_2019-2-2_11-49-21.jpeg
 

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And are not being operated and maintained by a private pilot...

You don’t need two planes, you need a plane and a boat. Boats are designed to sit in salt water, airplanes really aren’t. Please tell me more about this marina that welcomes seaplanes. I’d love to google it and see how feasible it is to get in and out of by seaplane. More familiar with boat operation in South Florida but in no place around here would that be feasible.

How well a plane is maintained, beyond regs, is up to the owner, the level of certificate doesn’t factor.

Lots of marinas welcome seaplanes, some are straight seaplane bases, but there are quite a few with seaplane specific docks, also ramping is a good (actually better) option too.

Keeping a plane in the water for a good amount of time is far from unheard of, just takes a little more work.
 
Have owned 5 Lakes, last was a Renegade which is the best of the bunch, 250HP with the Turbo being 270. They can handle more than calm water but one cringes with the sound of waves slapping the hull. Never insured except for liability.
The quotes for a value of 200K were in the 8000 to 9000 range, despite an IR and taking the Lake Factory course with annual recurrent training. This was despite many many hours in Lakes. Haven't checked recently the price may be down now. As noted before they do well on grass and gravel and the prop is up and away and shielded by the fuselage. With proper technique one can minimize the spray into the propeller, not so in the Cessnas including the Caravan.
All bolts need to be tight on the engine cowling to prevent an expensive pass through the propeller. Always used Lock tight and checked routinely. After an engine change out a mechanic left a loose bolt is the cowling came out and required a blade replacement. Threw the bolt into the turtle deck and left a nice ding there. Decent IFR platform, as slow and plenty of time to make corrections. Don't like climbing with any alacrity much above 7000 or 8000 feet unless turbocharged.
Hope this helps a little bit.
Thanks for the details!

And are not being operated and maintained by a private pilot...

You don’t need two planes, you need a plane and a boat. Boats are designed to sit in salt water, airplanes really aren’t. Please tell me more about this marina that welcomes seaplanes. I’d love to google it and see how feasible it is to get in and out of by seaplane. More familiar with boat operation in South Florida but in no place around here would that be feasible.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8709215,-122.455999,499m/data=!3m1!1e3

Not possible to get a plane into the marina, but the moorings in the cove outside are sheltered during summer months.

If you really want to big d**k it at the marina:

View attachment 71258

Albatross or PBY if I ever have the money...
 
To start with, I am student pilot that is getting ahead of himself...

I’d suggest that for now that you forget about trying to find an airplane that fits the mission you listed. Instead, solve the problem of only being a student pilot. Get your private and then add your seaplane rating. Then fly a variety of float planes and flying boats. See what you like and don’t like. Also taking a backcountry oriented seaplane course might be a good idea as well. Then you will be better equipped to answer this question than most if not all of the folks on here.
 
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Most working floatplanes are not amphibs, many are based out of salt water, lots don’t have a option to pull them out with a truck every night. That said when winter comes lots also go back to land planes.

l_1351525.jpg

These are planes that likely are flown every day, or nearly every day. Now imagine a plane that isn't, but just tied to a mooring for a week or two at a time. Unattended in an open harbor.

There is an organization that has run seaplane tours of the San Francisco Bay Area for decades. They use Dehaviland Beavers on floats. They are actually located across from San Francisco in Sausalito. They don't keep their planes in the water all the time. The OP should go over there and talk to them. Maybe go for a ride too. They will give the best advise about the OP's dream of anybody. They're doing it everyday.

https://www.seaplane.com

tour_img-1073873-148.jpg
 
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