Another Warrantless Aircraft Search ( Iowa)

[MAKG1]

Your opereating under the false premise that I actually give a crap that someone who drives a VW bus, wears a hemp necklace, and smells of patchouli thinks I'm an outsider or not.

Wow, assumed a few things, haven't you?

Hint: You don't have even the slightest clue.

And if you don't give a crap, why argue it?

 

[Palmpilot]

You will NEVER identify yourself as a clueless outsider faster than walking into a San Francisco locale and say the word "Frisco" without following it immediately with "Colorado."

There's one in Texas, too.

 

[EdFred]

Wow, assumed a few things, haven't you?

Hint: You don't have even the slightest clue.

And if you don't give a crap, why argue it?

Its not arguing when you aren't bothered by it.



So whats the best place to eat in..............Frisco, Cali?

 

[poadeleted21]

There's one in Texas, too.

According to Tupac, there's also on in California.

 

[Skylane81E]

Getting stopped at random at a checkpoint is unreasonable.

No argument

 

[Palmpilot]

Your opereating under the false premise that I actually give a crap that someone who drives a VW bus, wears a hemp necklace, and smells of patchouli thinks I'm an outsider or not.

Hey, way to trot out the stereotypes!

 

[Palmpilot]

...And if you don't give a crap, why argue it?

 

[poadeleted21]

Hey, way to trot out the stereotypes!

Stereotype? Statistics show that per capita in Frisco, female armpit hair is 3 times the Michigan levels.

 

[docmirror]

One of the saddest things I find is that we have fascists - oops, I mean people right here on this board that support the kind of crap that this guy ran into. After all, the DHS guys were only doing their job. {Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.} The number one defense used at Nuremburg.

Cause hey, if you got nothing to hide - right?

 

[Skylane81E]

One of the saddest things I find is that we have fascists - oops, I mean people right here on this board that support the kind of crap that this guy ran into. After all, the DHS guys were only doing their job. {Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.} The number one defense used at Nuremburg.

Cause hey, if you got nothing to hide - right?

I ain't happy about this, given the information at hand (cuz the media would never omit important details, ever) this was a textbook bad search.

Law enforcment needs the ability to conduct searches, but they need to to treat the power that WE give them with the respect it deserves.

 

[docmirror]

Law enforcement needs,,,,,,,,,

This is the kind of thinking I was referring to. 'Law enforcement needs..'

What? They don't deter crime. They don't protect citizens. They don't stop death, rape, etc. What do they "need" from the citizens? 40 years ago maybe they had some value but today, you are something like 30 times more likely to die from a cop than from a terrorist, and around 8 times more than a mugger/thief/bad guy.

Where is the accountability for these numbers? I can't think of any situation where the needs of the cops outweigh the needs of the citizens for privacy, but I'm pretty much an anarchist, or nearly so.

 

[MAKG1]

One of the saddest things I find is that we have fascists - oops, I mean people right here on this board that support the kind of crap that this guy ran into. After all, the DHS guys were only doing their job. {Ich habe nur Befehle befolgt.} The number one defense used at Nuremburg.

Cause hey, if you got nothing to hide - right?

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a single response that said anything like that.

Personally, I think the story is incomplete, and there is some critical detail being left out. And I just don't buy the conspiracy theory at this point. I think we're hearing about incompetence.

 

[poadeleted21]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a single response that said anything like that.

Personally, I think the story is incomplete, and there is some critical detail being left out. And I just don't buy the conspiracy theory at this point. I think we're hearing about incompetence.

As long as the tie breaker goes to the cops....

 

[Skylane81E]

This is the kind of thinking I was referring to. 'Law enforcement needs..'

What? They don't deter crime. They don't protect citizens. They don't stop death, rape, etc. What do they "need" from the citizens? .

Not much of a deterrent if they can't gather the evidence to make convictions now are they?

Those powers are granted to the government by the constitution for the very reason.


Gotta keep the limits on the power though,

 

[Skylane81E]

SNIP! around 8 times more than a mugger/thief/bad guy.

Now that I have gathered some data lets debunk this lie

583 people were killed by non military police last year

532 people were murdered in Chicago alone in 2012


Got any more lies?

 

[docmirror]

Now that I have gathered some data lets debunk this lie

583 people were killed by non military police last year

532 people were murdered in Chicago alone in 2012


Got any more lies?

No, just this one.

 

[JGoodish]

Not much of a deterrent if they can't gather the evidence to make convictions now are they?

Those powers are granted to the government by the constitution for the very reason.


Gotta keep the limits on the power though,

The Constitution is written, intended, and designed to protect the people from the government. Said another way, the Constitution provides protection for the people's right to defend themselves from an overbearing and tyrannical government.

When we get to the point where we expect that law enforcement is to be revered at all times, and has free reign to do anything they want, unobstructed, with the approach that "the courts will sort it out," we're then beyond the point of endorsing tyranny. While I believe that most LEOs are decent people, the people should not fear the government, nor should they have to incur the costs of defending themselves against violations of the law committed by law enforcement who figure that an overextension of their authority will be sorted out by the courts. It has become abundantly clear in recent years, if not before, that the government is not capable of holding itself accountable for anything.

We can all debate the genesis of the problem, but the point is that while the Constitution enumerates specific powers to the government, those powers aren't unlimited, and are accompanied by protections and powers afforded to the people to enable them to keep an unaccountable government in check.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

The Constitution is written, intended, and designed to protect the people from the government. Said another way, the Constitution provides protection for the people's right to defend themselves from an overbearing and tyrannical government.

When we get to the point where we expect that law enforcement is to be revered at all times, and has free reign to do anything they want, unobstructed, with the approach that "the courts will sort it out," we're then beyond the point of endorsing tyranny. While I believe that most LEOs are decent people, the people should not fear the government, nor should they have to incur the costs of defending themselves against violations of the law committed by law enforcement who figure that an overextension of their authority will be sorted out by the courts. It has become abundantly clear in recent years, if not before, that the government is not capable of holding itself accountable for anything.

We can all debate the genesis of the problem, but the point is that while the Constitution enumerates specific powers to the government, those powers aren't unlimited, and are accompanied by protections and powers afforded to the people to enable them to keep an unaccountable government in check.


JKG

Well put!

Seems to me that a good solution would be one of mutual respect. We should respect LEOs not just for the measure of power bestowed upon them but for the job they do for us, the LE community should return it in kind respecting us as the ones they work for and respecting the limits of the power they have.

 

[JGoodish]

Well put!

Seems to me that a good solution would be one of mutual respect. We should respect LEOs not just for the measure of power bestowed upon them but for the job they do for us, the LE community should return it in kind respecting us as the ones they work for and respecting the limits of the power they have.

And I think, for the most part, that happens, at least on the state and local level. A bit off point, but I'm somewhat troubled by technologies (such as license plate cameras) which often appear to remove an officer's discretion in certain situations. I see most LEOs as professionals who are motivated to serve the public, but that doesn't mean that bureaucrats and politicians aren't tying their hands or incentivizing them to make poor decisions in certain situations.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

Plate readers are a grey area to me, the plate is there to be read so I don't care who or what does the reading but I'm really not sure they are always a useful tool, especially in a world where people get "attached" to plates of cars they do not own. For example my fiancé was once ticketed driving my car, now she is attached to my plate. If she ever gets a warrant a plate reader will alert on my car. Here in Ohio the reader will also alert on my CHL, with the exact same warning tone and color as if I was a wanted cop killer. Some real limits to the usefulness of such a tool, particularly in high crime areas where just about everyone has a scumbag relative who has borrowed the car.

 

[docmirror]

Well put!

Seems to me that a good solution would be one of mutual respect. We should respect LEOs not just for the measure of power bestowed upon them but for the job they do for us, the LE community should return it in kind respecting us as the ones they work for and respecting the limits of the power they have.

Heh, call me crazy but respect is earned. When the LEOs trample the 4th amendment with impunity, their leaders lie to the public with no responsibility, and the whole chain of law enforcement from the DOJ down to the patrolman walking a beat is corrupt, I'm afraid my 'respect' for them just isn't there.

Now, the other way around you can sure as hell bet those armed, and badged LEOs taking the guys plane apart had ZERO respect for him as a citizen, taxpayer, and human. AFAIAC, LEOs can bite me. Until they stand up and shout 'this is wrong!' they are part of the problem.

 

[poadeleted21]

Heh, call me crazy but respect is earned. When the LEOs trample the 4th amendment with impunity, their leaders lie to the public with no responsibility, and the whole chain of law enforcement from the DOJ down to the patrolman walking a beat is corrupt, I'm afraid my 'respect' for them just isn't there.

Now, the other way around you can sure as hell bet those armed, and badged LEOs taking the guys plane apart had ZERO respect for him as a citizen, taxpayer, and human. AFAIAC, LEOs can bite me. Until they stand up and shout 'this is wrong!' they are part of the problem.

 

[JGoodish]

Plate readers are a grey area to me, the plate is there to be read so I don't care who or what does the reading but I'm really not sure they are always a useful tool, especially in a world where people get "attached" to plates of cars they do not own. For example my fiancé was once ticketed driving my car, now she is attached to my plate. If she ever gets a warrant a plate reader will alert on my car. Here in Ohio the reader will also alert on my CHL, with the exact same warning tone and color as if I was a wanted cop killer. Some real limits to the usefulness of such a tool, particularly in high crime areas where just about everyone has a scumbag relative who has borrowed the car.

The problem with plate readers isn't that they read plates, it's that they appear to force officers to write citations for violations which they might otherwise dismiss in the field. I'm not sure if that's true everywhere, but it appears to be true in at least some cases.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

Heh, call me crazy but respect is earned. When the LEOs trample the 4th amendment with impunity, their leaders lie to the public with no responsibility, and the whole chain of law enforcement from the DOJ down to the patrolman walking a beat is corrupt, I'm afraid my 'respect' for them just isn't there.

Now, the other way around you can sure as hell bet those armed, and badged LEOs taking the guys plane apart had ZERO respect for him as a citizen, taxpayer, and human. AFAIAC, LEOs can bite me. Until they stand up and shout 'this is wrong!' they are part of the problem.

That is a pretty bold statement, but given your ability to make up data at will in this tread not surprising in the least

 

[Skylane81E]

The problem with plate readers isn't that they read plates, it's that they appear to force officers to write citations for violations which they might otherwise dismiss in the field. I'm not sure if that's true everywhere, but it appears to be true in at least some cases.


JKG

In my experience the reader gets ignored much of the time

 

[ClimbnSink]

Heh, call me crazy but respect is earned. When the LEOs trample the 4th amendment with impunity, their leaders lie to the public with no responsibility, and the whole chain of law enforcement from the DOJ down to the patrolman walking a beat is corrupt, I'm afraid my 'respect' for them just isn't there.

Now, the other way around you can sure as hell bet those armed, and badged LEOs taking the guys plane apart had ZERO respect for him as a citizen, taxpayer, and human. AFAIAC, LEOs can bite me. Until they stand up and shout 'this is wrong!' they are part of the problem.

yup. funny thing is the police have lost the default moral authority, everyone, even good white people(sarcasm, sort of) have seen bad police behavior. even funnier is they don't realize they have lost the default moral authority and still act and talk like everyone believes them moral and just.

 

[JGoodish]

In my experience the reader gets ignored much of the time

Not in my home state, a lesson learned straight from a state trooper who claimed that a violation caught by the camera forces him to write a citation during a subsequent traffic stop. If that's true, that's not a good thing.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

Not in my home state, a lesson learned straight from a state trooper who claimed that a violation caught by the camera forces him to write a citation during a subsequent traffic stop. If that's true, that's not a good thing.


JKG

No it's not

 

[ClimbnSink]

Not in my home state, a lesson learned straight from a state trooper who claimed that a violation caught by the camera forces him to write a citation during a subsequent traffic stop. If that's true, that's not a good thing.


JKG

Guess it is like the speed cameras with the vendor getting a cut of the fine. That would explain them having mandatory ticketing in the service contract. No way to run a free country.

 

[Skylane81E]

Guess it is like the speed cameras with the vendor getting a cut of the fine. That would explain them having mandatory ticketing in the service contract. No way to run a free country.

I can agree with you here, fines are supposed to be a punishment for wrongdoing, ie a deterrent to the illegal action.

It ain't supposed to be a money making venture,

 

[JGoodish]

yup. funny thing is the police have lost the default moral authority, everyone, even good white people(sarcasm, sort of) have seen bad police behavior. even funnier is they don't realize they have lost the default moral authority and still act and talk like everyone believes them moral and just.

I'm not sure that LEOs ever had "default moral authority," but in their defense, as a society we've allowed ourselves to become over-regulated and over-legislated to the point where there are fewer and fewer things which aren't a violation of the law in some way. If the public can't keep up with the mountain of laws and regulations, it becomes increasingly difficult for LEOs to enforce the law in a respectable way, and for the public to avoid violating it.

With that being said, some LEOs do need to be reminded that they exist to serve the public and not the government, but that's a tough message to credibly deliver when the public continues to elect politicians and judges who believe that they know better than the those who elect them.


JKG

 

[JGoodish]

No it's not

I have evidence to the contrary.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

With that being said, some LEOs do need to be reminded that they exist to serve the public and not the government, but that's a tough message to credibly deliver when the public continues to elect politicians and judges who believe that they know better than the those who elect them.


JKG

Minor nit,

LEOs do serve the government, but the government works for us so in the end it is a distinction without difference

That "serve and protect" on the side of the car means ME not big bro

 

[Skylane81E]

I have evidence to the contrary.


JKG

I was agreeing that it was bad

 

[JGoodish]

Minor nit,

LEOs do serve the government, but the government works for us so in the end it is a distinction without difference

That "serve and protect" on the side of the car means ME not big bro

LEOs work for the government, but they are not employed to serve it. They are employed to serve the public by enforcing the law.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

LEOs work for the government, but they are not employed to serve it. They are employed to serve the public by enforcing the law.


JKG

Serve the government in its mission to serve me, but like I said, the difference is unimportant

 

[JGoodish]

I was agreeing that it was bad

Got it. Yes, it seems as though license plate cameras may be the "new" red light cameras, which is really inexcusable when you consider that there is a LEO on the scene with every license plate camera.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

Got it. Yes, it seems as though license plate cameras may be the "new" red light cameras, which is really inexcusable when you consider that there is a LEO on the scene with every license plate camera.


JKG

I think the comparison to the red light camera is a good one, used right there is some potential to do good, but when the plate reader gets either ignored or overrides officer discretion it is a lot like the shortening of yellow lights and increase in rear end accidents that occur when red light cameras are installed.

 

[JGoodish]

Serve the government in its mission to serve me, but like I said, the difference is unimportant

It is important for this reason: the government's mission isn't just to serve you, it's to serve the public as a whole, which seems to be often employed as justification for why government should dictate to certain groups of people simply because other groups want them to do so. The ship of a constrained government accountable to the people sailed a long, long time ago, so it's not hard to imagine how LEOs may be confused and conflicted about whom they serve.


JKG

 

[Skylane81E]

It is important for this reason: the government's mission isn't just to serve you, it's to serve the public as a whole, which seems to often be employed as justification for why government should dictate to certain groups of people simply because other groups want them to do so. The ship of a constrained government accountable to the people sailed a long, long time ago, so it's not hard to imagine how LEOs may be confused and conflicted about whom they serve.


JKG

A valid observation