Another thought on the decline of GA.

[Bob Noel]

[snip]
Considering everything, could "fun" or the lack of it, be the real reason GA is in decline?

For me, the sheer joy of flying would be the same, but all the cr** being inflicted on us because of the TSA (at the airport as well as the idiotic permanent TFRs) and the added expense because of ADS-B, plus some personal issues, all adds up to my just not having enthusiasm for flying anymore.

I will be selling my airplane when I get around to it. I'm glad I owned it (since 1994), I really enjoyed working on it, but it's time to sell it.

 

[Mason]

Take some young kids for their first airplane ride. Make sure you have beautiful weather and smooth air. See things thru their eyes and I bet the magic returns.

 

[dmccormack]

I don't find flying as much fun as I used to, but I still enjoy it, especially when flying with others. My goal is to use it as transportation as often as possible, but find its really not that practical as most of my travel is for work and VERY long distances.

If I don't find ways to use it more, I am going to sell my plane. Droning along for hours just doesn't seem as much fun anymore, but I still enjoy it enough to do it.

You really have to change it up. I flew the 205 from VVS to AVP to WAY (basically across PA twice) VFR and it was flying -- which isn't always "fun" it can always be challenging. For example, when flying direct I force myself to maintain course within 1 degree (if GPS equipped) and no more than 20' altitude deviation.

I also do lots of terrain recognition, trying to determine exactly where I am at all times and then consulting the chart to see if I'm right.

The Chief has really upped the pure fun factor, though. Just this afternoon we went out to the airport and I gave the bird its first wash since Oct 2010. Of course the best way to dry it off is to fly it, so I preflight, prop and roll down the taxiway.

I took off, kept the pattern super tight, did a low pass at 90 MPH 15' off the deck, and zoomed climbed back to pattern altitude. Then a slipping, descending 180 from downwind, skimmed 30' over the the road at the end of the runway, slowed to 45, held it off, and gently rolled it onto the grass.

All for maybe a gallon of gas.

 

[John Baker]

OK, we active pilots, have fun some of the time, or for some of us, all of the time, but, are we convincing the non flying younger generation that all this fun is worth the work, money, and financial risk? Do we even think it is? Perhaps that is why we are not so convincing.

John

 

[Everskyward]

OK, we active pilots, have fun some of the time, or for some of us, all of the time, but, are we convincing the non flying younger generation that all this fun is worth the work, money, and financial risk? Do we even think it is?

I don't know why you think the younger generation is non-flying any more than the older generation is. There are plenty of people I would consider "young" on this board who are pretty active. Besides, why do we need to convince anybody of anything? I don't think you should force your hobby on someone. As long as they are aware it's an option, which I'm sure most people are, they can make their own choices.

 

[somorris]

Do we even think it is? Perhaps that is why we are not so convincing.

I think it is worth it, John. I have been flying for almost 20 years and still am awed by actually being able to fly. Maybe the glass is half full??

 

[dmccormack]

OK, we active pilots, have fun some of the time, or for some of us, all of the time, but, are we convincing the non flying younger generation that all this fun is worth the work, money, and financial risk? Do we even think it is? Perhaps that is why we are not so convincing.

John

Sorry, John, but "fun" is not the only or primary benefit for many worthwhile endeavors, flying included.

I'd say fun ranks down around happy and pleasant on a scale of importance. Competence, adventure, exhilaration, trust, skill, challenge, intellectual stimulation -- all these play a much bigger role.

 

[N801BH]

I'd say fun ranks down around happy and pleasant on a scale of importance. Competence, adventure, exhilaration, trust, skill, challenge, intellectual stimulation -- all these play a much bigger role.

And that sir equals fun in my book..... Every last task you spelled out..

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I get a real kick out of pilots n paws flights. Everybody's always happy. The rescuers are happy, because they get to save some pups from the gas chamber. The pups are happy, for reasons only they know, because that's just the way they are. I believe most of them know they are getting another chance, but at what, who knows. The people at the receiving end are happy, because they get to bring the pups to their forever homes, and when the forever homes come out to the airport to meet their new fuzzy little family member, they are just thrilled, and one thing those with children will never forget is that their new puppy came because of a nice man, a pilot, in one of those cool little airplanes.

And I'm happy to do it. You will be too.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I don't know why you think the younger generation is non-flying any more than the older generation is. There are plenty of people I would consider "young" on this board who are pretty active. Besides, why do we need to convince anybody of anything? I don't think you should force your hobby on someone. As long as they are aware it's an option, which I'm sure most people are, they can make their own choices.

Statistics are proving John to be sadly accurate. The pilot population is aging rapidly, and there are just not enough young people coming up to keep the infrastructure going.

This is why you can now fly to literally hundreds of unstaffed airports across the country that were staffed as recently as the 1990s. This is why I am still "the young guy" at the airport -- and I am 53. This is why I see a tiny fraction of GA traffic, compared to what we saw in the '90s.

I have NO problem trumpeting to the high heavens (and to anyone who will listen) about the joys and pleasures that await them when they learn to fly. I have mentored several new pilots, and I don't view this as pushing my hobby on people -- I view it as educating the masses, for I was once amongst them.

If ONLY someone had "pushed their hobby" on my when I was in my 20s! Perhaps I wouldn't have wasted my first 36 years on this planet standing on the ground, looking up.

 

[dmac5356]

I recently flew a Beech Skipper from Stockton, CA to St. Paul, MN. A Skipper is in the Cessna 150 league, although much roomier. Crossing the Sierras, Lake Tahoe, the desert mountains of norther Nevada, Bonneville Salt Flats, the Great Salt Lake, the Rockies, and the Great Plains... whew! All at a stately 90 knots, and 20 mpg. It was a great trip (even though my other plane is a much faster Debonair).

We discourage people from taking long trips in slow airplanes, pushing them into faster planes that may not be affordable. Mistake!

 

[hindsight2020]

Talking about the decline of GA. Today I was on the return leg from a cross country with my student. Holding short at KAFW waiting on radar release and the weather probably at about OVC020. And so here come a couple of GA aircraft requesting transit through AFW Delta in order to squeeze into 52F and Hicks respectively. And instead of being good ambassadors and helpers, AFW twr decided they were pre-menstrual this morning and started advising traffic the "field is going IFR, cleared an approach or need a special request". The guy in the Mooney is looking out the window and goes "got 52F in sight, request VFR transit". Alliance gets on this pedantic "sir, I need a something S-P-E-C-I-A-L from you otherwise I can only clear you to land here". The mooney is stumped. He even chuckles on the radio and after making several pleas to be allowed to transit VFR to Northwestern to no avail, he tells tower " i got nothing sir, I just wish to transit to Northwest..". Tower, in the most douchebaggish display of aviation unfriendliness I've witnessed in my time flying professionally, clears the mooney to land full stop at AFW and copy phone number. The mooney did the right thing and didn't even shut down and called them up engine running. The whole time I'm 1)stumped and 2) shaking my head in disgust.

Turns out he was looking for a request for SVFR. Hell, my student asked me and it wasn't until I got home that I refreshed my memory on the allowances of SVFR. The whole time I was like "well here I am sitting behind a turboprop ejection seat aircraft and I'd be saying the same damn thing as the mooney was requesting from tower". I would have the same lack of recollection on SVFR and I fly for a living. The fact was conditions DID NOT warrant a SVFR boondoggle scenario and tower was being absolutely pedantic in their handling of the whole situation.

The second traffic going to hicks caught on towers reindeer games and followed tower's prompting for the utterance of the word 'special VFR' and was essentially granted harrassment free. What kind of small town cop hair did alliance get up their a&& today anyways? They're usually accommodating.

The whole thing put a big fat ribbon of "here you are aviation community, this is you" in my eyes. I was very disappointed to be part of a community that eats their young and puts fences around their little fifedoms of "eff you, I got mine". We eat our young. Here's another GA enthusiast who lost a lot of respect for the community, and it was all for nothing. We need to be accommodating of our GA base, and I speak this not as a CFII/CPL ticket holder and GA defender, I speak as a military pilot with more 121 pilot peers who have nothing but disdain and disinterest in GA. We're our own worst enemies.

When I think of fun, pedantic and "stump the dummy" does not come to my mind. There's a time and place to be disciplined about the importance of adherence to standards and mechanical accomplishment of tasks, this one was not one of those scenarios. This was gratuitous and shameful. I was about an inch from the mike button away from butting in on tower and giving mooney "PAR vectors" on the conversation and gotten a tongue lashing from tower myself, but in my military capacity I didn't want to roll myself up in a bigger ball of hair than that was. I told my student, don't be that guy when you become commander of an aircraft. Like we say in our circles, be a bro, not a douche.

Every time we stop by at our outstations, I let the parents with the young kid sit on the wing and put his/her greasy little fingers and cheek on the bubble canopy and awe at the panel and ejection seat, the helmet and oxygen hose. I wave and fist pump when we're starting, as they watch from the FBO. It's what keeps this thing HUMAN, in spite of our self-important sense of elitism that stinks this community up like a rotten corpse. Im not about to berate the parents and tell them if the kid doesn't have the innate proclivity to be an anal douche with a hardon for the idiosyncracies of part 91/23, he need not bother pursuing aviation. We're losing our religion.

A moron with a humble attitude can be learned to enjoy his life without killing himself. An unapproachable d*ck (Chuck Yeager anybody?) matters none even if one can whip the plane around a la Hoover.

 

[denverpilot]

The second guy should'a keyed up and told the first guy the tower wanted the magic words "Special VFR".

"Hey Cessna, you want a Special VFR clearance, right?"

That would have taken care of it. Downright neighborly even.

The Tower's hands are tied in the matter, they're expressly forbidden to suggest it by law. It can only be requested by the pilot.

Sounds like the tower would have tolerated it just fine in this particular case. They were hinting as hard as they could.

I must honestly admit that I'm a little shocked that you're teaching students and you don't know the regs behind Special VFR or even remember it? I know you're military, but really?

That's Private Pilot written test stuff, not even an advanced rating.

It's also asked by almost every DPE alive what "No SVFR" means on the Sectional or Terminal Area Charts at certain high-traffic airports during Private oral exams.

Tower wasn't being a jerk. Tower was bound by a law that assumes if you can't remember to ask for Special VFR, you probably aren't enough mentally on the ball to be up in it.

Not saying I agree, but that's the thought process behind that silly rule.

It's a codified legal loophole to allow a VFR pilot to operate at a field below VFR minimums, as long as IFR traffic is completely separated from the VFR traffic by the controller inside controlled airspace.

They must separate them visually, or by keeping IFR traffic outside the airspace until the Special VFR is clear.

I understand your feeling that things aren't very friendly sometimes in Aviation and agree with that sentiment. But in this case, that's not what was happening.

Glad you grabbed the FARs and looked it up. The prohibition against the Tower recommending it, is right there in the regs. Check it out.

 

[dmccormack]

If ONLY someone had "pushed their hobby" on my when I was in my 20s! Perhaps I wouldn't have wasted my first 36 years on this planet standing on the ground, looking up.

1960-1975 (or so) exhibited an unusual demand for GA driven by:

• Relatively inexpensive fuel
• A GI Bill spread across many different layers of society due to the draft (not so with the current all-volunteer force)
• Low legal and bureaucratic intrusion
• Widespread boosterism still running off Lindbergh, Mecury, and Apollo

 

[Anthony]

1960-1975 (or so) exhibited an unusual demand for GA driven by:

• Relatively inexpensive fuel
• A GI Bill spread across many different layers of society due to the draft (not so with the current all-volunteer force)
• Low legal and bureaucratic intrusion
• Widespread boosterism still running off Lindbergh, Mecury, and Apollo

Dan. That is a great list. I concur. None of those items are true anymore.

 

[Everskyward]

Here are some thoughts about why you see mostly older people hanging out at the airport. They have more time because they are retired. Many of them have had successful careers thus they have more money which is why they can afford airplanes, while young people are just starting out. It was that way 30 years ago too. I remember trying to participate in some groups when I was young. Aside from the college flying club to which I belonged, other groups were mostly made up by people old enough to be my parents or grandparents. Of course now I see the flip side of that and I don't feel as old as I perceived these people to be.

 

[MSPAviator]

I recently flew a Beech Skipper from Stockton, CA to St. Paul, MN. A Skipper is in the Cessna 150 league, although much roomier. Crossing the Sierras, Lake Tahoe, the desert mountains of norther Nevada, Bonneville Salt Flats, the Great Salt Lake, the Rockies, and the Great Plains... whew! All at a stately 90 knots, and 20 mpg. It was a great trip (even though my other plane is a much faster Debonair).

That sounds like a fun trip, I'm jealous. I'll make a trip like that someday when I own my own plane... It doesn't sound feasible to do that in a rental.

I'm signed up for your seminar on long range trip planning on 12/10 BTW, even though KSGS is on the opposite side of town from me.

 

[hindsight2020]

The second guy should'a keyed up and told the first guy the tower wanted the magic words "Special VFR".

"Hey Cessna, you want a Special VFR clearance, right?"

That would have taken care of it. Downright neighborly even.

The Tower's hands are tied in the matter, they're expressly forbidden to suggest it by law. It can only be requested by the pilot.

Sounds like the tower would have tolerated it just fine in this particular case. They were hinting as hard as they could.

I must honestly admit that I'm a little shocked that you're teaching students and you don't know the regs behind Special VFR or even remember it? I know you're military, but really?

That's Private Pilot written test stuff, not even an advanced rating.

Yeah really. We have a joke in the military about book smart pilots..we call them chitty sticks. They can cite verse and proverb, reading the checklist all the way to the site of the crash. As an instructor the most valuable lesson I've learned in my time is that I don't know everything all the time. As you pointed out, I did go back and looked for it, pulled my student aside on the flight room the next day and told them, hey look, this is the answer to our question.

SVFR is something we hardly mess with in the military as a matter of training. As you may or may not know, on top of all the FAA crap, I have AFIs (Air Force instructions) that tack on on top of the CFR mandates to slip the surlies. It would surprise you to know that in this world, VFR is 1500/3 and not 1000/3. Alternate filing reqs are 2000/3 +/- 1hr unless the field has 2 compatible precision approaches then its 1500/3, unless there's a MAJCOM waiver then it's 1500/3 without the two approaches. . Alternate has to have 500 above lowest compatible approach and 2 miles vis, unless there's unmonitored navaids as the only approach then it's VFR to destination, not counting TEMPO group for forecasting in the same 1 hr period. *head spins @ 30,000RPM like a dry vac pump and explodes*

Stump the dummy crap like that is the minefield of trivia I have to actively manage in order to do my job every day. General Knowledge base that would blow your freggin civilian pilot mind if you had to recite from memory. So spare me the jab about forgetting a stump the dummy question from my FAA private pilot general knowledge days. Got us home safe and unviolated, pulled Gs until my uniform was unwrinkled again (cheap laundry I call it) while simultaneously managed not to wet my pants in panic over my newfound ignorance of SVFR "request legalisms". You ever admit you don't know something publicly? You oughta try it, the world doesn't end, it's quite confidence building.

Fact is we looked it up and my student learned that day. I still retained my credibility as instructor by being honest and looking up the answer together rather than lying because others might scorn me for not knowing every answer they deem "basic".

The whole scenario was indicative of our culture. Screw the law and the SVFR boondogle. We can be better ambassadors. I am not privy to the phone conversation with twr. For all I know they were very accommodating and explained why their hands were tied in not uttering the word for him. The whole thing was just unnecessary.

You think "well, it's oooonn the book right here spelled out, so ha!" gets people to come in the fence and commit to flight training? Utterly myopic. You know, there's a reason military pilots can't swear and grab a hot woman's ass anymore. Ask the old mil heads here (hell isn't Ron a prior Phantom/Weasel driver? ) and they'll tell you all about SNAPS (Sensitive new age pilots) and how we're viewed today compared to their days in a green bag. As a generation, my military is comprised of men who can program the equivalent of a panel full of poorly installed KLN90Bs with their eyes close, with the same precision a sniper assembles his sword, who would put to shame the pilots of the 70s and 80s in technical expertise and academic aptitude, but these are also men who are too afraid of pulling their wives' hair and ***ing em dirty and right, proverbially speaking, and call it par for the course at the O club, which is now combined anyways, devoid of brotherhood. At any rate, all that to say that your indignation over my lack of knowledge of SVFR strikes me as paralleling of that "forest for the trees" tangential pursuit of stump the dummy over the preference for a macroscopic view of flying as an activity, attitude which may be considered by some circles as reckless (old vs new military pilot as an example).

And there's your decline of GA. We need to look in the mirror.

 

[MSPAviator]

Wow....

 

[N801BH]

Yeah really. We have a joke in the military about book smart pilots..we call them chitty sticks. And there's your decline of GA. We need to look in the mirror.

Awww. come on... Tell us how you really feel..:wink2:

 

[dmac5356]

I'm signed up for your seminar on long range trip planning on 12/10 BTW, even though KSGS is on the opposite side of town from me.

Great! Introduce yourself before or after, and we can go take a look at the mighty cross-country Skipper.

I have been fortunate to fly my small planes to the Grand Canyon, Colorado Rockies, Texas, Washington DC, Disney World, the Florida Keys, the Bahamas... and many more.

 

[denverpilot]

Let me get this straight.

A military IP complains that the civilian Tower...

... who was following the SVFR law every 40 hour Private Pilot knows...

... even AFTER he read the regs that state exactly why the Tower couldn't offer the clearance...

... still says the Tower was "unfriendly".

When someone points out that this is common knowledge...

... he busts into an ugly rant about all other aviators and how much better he is than they...

... because he "pulls G's" and has cute derrogatory names for people who know their regs better than he...

... and then tries to say he wants more camaraderie in the aviation world.



I'm laughing my butt off here.

Some advice, you probably don't want to hear...

I'd buy you a beer and thank you for your service anytime, soldier.

I'm also jealous as hell of your job and glad you're teaching kids the survival skills they'll need in combat.

Even all those awful extra regs you have to memorize, to have the privilege of flying that turboprop I paid for you to have, sound pretty cool to me.

I fly a desk every day to pay 50% of my income to Uncle Sam, so you get to memorize that stuff and teach those kids.

But you sure have some funny ideas on how to build comraderie, if you believe all those awful things you said about your fellow aviators.

I'm more pro-military than most people my age, and respect everything you're doing, but I'm not above telling you that your head is up and locked if you think it's someone else's fault that you don't know the SVFR regs.

Now if you want to say the reg is stupid, and adds unnecessary risk by forcing the Tower to play 20-questions, I'm right there with ya. 100% agreed.

Want comraderie? Try this...

"Thanks. It appears I screwed the pooch in front of a student. I understand Special VFR now."

You want other pilots to be friendly, you'd be well-advised to stop bitching about them. Especially the civvies who bought you that turboprop.

I like the spirit of what you're trying to say, but you trashed your argument when you trash-talked other pilots in the same post where you said you want more camaraderie.

Attitude check. Lead by example.

 

[Morne]

...and the weather probably at about OVC020.

***snip***

...AFW twr decided they were pre-menstrual this morning and started advising traffic the "field is going IFR, cleared an approach or need a special request".

***snip***

The fact was conditions DID NOT warrant a SVFR boondoggle scenario and tower was being absolutely pedantic in their handling of the whole situation.

Might it be that your assessment of the weather was more generous than reality?

Don't get me wrong, I've been guilty of getting data from the ATIS and then ignoring changes while awaiting departure (and listening to ground or tower only). But since tower advised of a flight rule change, they were probably in the process of rolling the ATIS data, too.

My point being that when at a controlled field arguing the weather conditions with the guy staring at the ASOS is probably not beneficial.

Final thought - if the GA traffic really didn't like the tower's attitude they could've just kept clear of KAFW's Delta airspace. Neither 52F nor Hicks are under KAFW's airspace, though both are close. When talking to ATC is optional it's hard to gripe about the lip they give you.

Just a thought.