Another really good reason to hate the TSA, the FAA, and TFRs!

[steingar]

The Obaminator will be here Sunday evening. I know it. Mrs. Steingar knows it. The whole town knows it.

I would love to take advantage of the gorgeous fall weather, and if he's' not coming until early evening, I probably could. I've like to, since I'm getting (voluntarily) kicked out of the house Sunday. But I have no idea of the onset or duration of the VIP TFR, which will encompass my home airport within its 10 mile no fly zone. Tough to make plans with an invisible elephant in the room.

 

[Telemakhos]

No worries. Just HOPE hard enough, and he'll CHANGE his travel plans for you.
Or, you could just plunk down 10,000 bucks to eat dinner with him.

 

[bobmrg]

The Obaminator will be here Sunday evening. I know it. Mrs. Steingar knows it. The whole town knows it.

I would love to take advantage of the gorgeous fall weather, and if he's' not coming until early evening, I probably could. I've like to, since I'm getting (voluntarily) kicked out of the house Sunday. But I have no idea of the onset or duration of the VIP TFR, which will encompass my home airport within its 10 mile no fly zone. Tough to make plans with an invisible elephant in the room.

How about just hating the Secret Service and leaving the others (who have no control over the SS) out of the equation?

Bob Gardner

 

[steingar]

How about just hating the Secret Service and leaving the others (who have no control over the SS) out of the equation?

Bob Gardner

In my cold hatred I leave out obvious perpetrators. Please forgive the omission. That said, the policies are a combinatorial effect. They're all culpable to some degree.

 

[Pi1otguy]

And if it's anything like his last West Coast visit please expect ground travel (car, bus, and even foot) to get bad. Probably close off the busiest streets in your town with no warning during rush hour without any viable detours for even pedestrians.

 

[SCCutler]

These ridiculous TFRs are ridiculous without regard for the party of the "VIP" involved.

At least President Bush's remaining restricted airspace is low and small enough not to materially affect most operations at Addison.

 

[alaskaflyer]

There might be some connection between the TSA and presidential TFRs but I'll be darned if I can think of what it is.

 

[Pi1otguy]

These ridiculous TFRs are ridiculous without regard for the party of the "VIP" involved.

But without the TFRs how's the SS to know which airplanes are hostile? I'm still waiting to see the SS open the sunroof of their SUVs and whip out a manpad. Make one heck of a photo.

 

[steingar]

There might be some connection between the TSA and presidential TFRs but I'll be darned if I can think of what it is.

Details details. You actually need a connection to the SS to despise the TSA? Nice fella.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Details details. You actually need a connection to the SS to despise the TSA? Nice fella.

To have "another really good reason"? Yes, I think I would

 

[Palmpilot]

There might be some connection between the TSA and presidential TFRs but I'll be darned if I can think of what it is.

Are they both under the Department of Fatherland Security?

 

[ScottM]

Are they both under the Department of Fatherland Security?

Yes as is the Coast Guard

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

What I find funny about the Restricted Airspace is what are they designed to stop exactly? I doubt the next airborne terrorist is going "We are going to crash this Cessna into the building that is housing Obama! Wait, we cannot, he is protected by restricted airspace! Dammit, the USA government foiled our plans again!"

 

[Palmpilot]

Do you honestly expect government security personnel to think things through? On THIS planet?

 

[flyersfan31]

Oh you whiney whiney pilot.

What's with all the whining? Be glad you have an airplane, you whining pilot. Whine whine whine. What is it with you whiney people.

<sarcasm off>

I feel your pain. Post something about these stupid TFRs with Obama's name in the same post and you get crapped on for whining.

I know how you feel, and as far as I'm concerned, it sucks. Sorry to hear about it. He's been hitting the Philly/NYC metro area pretty hard lately, seemingly on a daily basis. Thank goodness I moved my plane to a sweet spot between the two 30mi areas, so unless he visits the NE Phila or SW NY suburbs I'm in good shape.

 

[chucky]

Looks like he's hitting up Boston this weekend, too.

 

[AdamZ]

Oh you whiney whiney pilot.

What's with all the whining? Be glad you have an airplane, you whining pilot. Whine whine whine. What is it with you whiney people.

<sarcasm off>

I feel your pain. Post something about these stupid TFRs with Obama's name in the same post and you get crapped on for whining.

I know how you feel, and as far as I'm concerned, it sucks. Sorry to hear about it. He's been hitting the Philly/NYC metro area pretty hard lately, seemingly on a daily basis. Thank goodness I moved my plane to a sweet spot between the two 30mi areas, so unless he visits the NE Phila or SW NY suburbs I'm in good shape.

not only has he hit Philly repeatedly within the course of only one weiek but Biden has been here too and his Wilmington TFR has expanded quite a bit. It stinks living in a area with a hotly contested race grrrr

 

[jhinman]

He's coming to Los Angeles next weekend to stump for the democratic gubernatorial candidate. Last time he was here, his motorcade literally stopped traffic for about four hours during the peak afternoon commute time. All so he could attend a fundraiser for the democratic party. Considering all the economic costs associated with his visit it probably would have been far cheaper for the city of LA to just hand the democrats a check.

 

[alaskaflyer]

What I find funny about the Restricted Airspace is what are they designed to stop exactly? I doubt the next airborne terrorist is going "We are going to crash this Cessna into the building that is housing Obama! Wait, we cannot, he is protected by restricted airspace! Dammit, the USA government foiled our plans again!"

Sigh. You know better than this.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Yes as is the Coast Guard

As is the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and Citizen and Immigration Services. All of whom have about as much to do with these TFR's as the TSA.

 

[rpadula]

Move your plane outside the 10 mile ring before he gets there?

 

[steingar]

Move your plane outside the 10 mile ring before he gets there?

Thought about it, but I've had it stranded away from home once already this month. Don't feel like doing it again.

I would if I were just going to start a big vacation or something. Did that for W. once. I just wanted to do a day flight while I was kicked out the house. My biggest complaint is not so much the TFR (though I certainly don't like that) it's that I can't even get the info I would need to plan around it.

I know there are plenty of people with far worse problems better deserving of your attention. But if I can't rant a little on a pilot forum on the internet, there is something direly wrong with the cosmos.

 

[Ghery]

He's going to be in Seattle next Thursday raising money to help keep another party member in the Senate. Good thing I'll be at work, so I won't be impacted. Probably just outside the 30 mile ring, anyway. Last time he was here they scrambled a pair of F-15s out of PDX when a guy flew back from the central part of the state and violated the TFR. He was down and tied up (float plane) before the fighters got here. And they were full burners and supersonic. Sorry I was out of town and missed the booms.

 

[BillTIZ]

Looks like he's hitting up Boston this weekend, too.

There's a Nor'easter headed for Boston... maybe that will keep him away?

 

[BillTIZ]

Move your plane outside the 10 mile ring before he gets there?

10 miles is not far enough... no training flights within the 30nm ring.. normally.. but you could depart IFR on a $500 hamburger run.

 

[Bob Noel]

There's a Nor'easter headed for Boston... maybe that will keep him away?

Maybe they could plan trips to coincide with the weather. That
way the idiotic TFR impacts would be minimized.

 

[Aztec Driver]

My biggest problem with all of this traveling by the pres and the rest of the ilk is that they spend great gobs of money and great gobs of time doing nothing but trying to get reelected. Can't anyone employed in government actually do any work for their money?

 

[Dr. O]

I agree with your rant... Now, having vented, you need to plan...
1. Move the plane
2. OR file IFR to get out (if they agree )...

There is a #3 which will not solve your/our immediate problem but will in the long run help tremendously... THat is for every one who has their plans destroyed by these pernicious pop up TFR's around these political scumbags, is to go to federal court and file a suit demanding an emergency show cause ruling as to why you are being denied the use of the public airspace... Now, it will not cost much because the early suits will be summarily dismissed by the courts... But after a dozen or so of these suits some judge is going to take notice, accidently remember we have Constitutional guarantees of freedom of movement in public spaces, and might be bored enough to demand that the FAA show up in court to defend said motion... This will cause a disturbance in the Force, Luke... A few of those and the system will start to put pressure on the Secret Service to be a better neighbor...

But, I don't hold much hope as venting is cheaper than using the system to effect change...

denny-o

 

[steingar]

Might move the plane, or even get out from under the damn thing, but I have no idea when it starts. If the O. decides to hang out in my little burg for the day, I'm screwed. Can't move it today or tomorrow, I have a life. Very frustrating either way.

 

[gprellwitz]

I agree with your rant... Now, having vented, you need to plan...
1. Move the plane
2. OR file IFR to get out (if they agree )...

My recollection is that the inner 10NM zone, which is where Michael said he's located, is only available to part 121 or those on a 12.5K security plan, plus the normal cadre in support of the operation, law enforcement, and emergency medical with prior approval. So filing IFR wouldn't help.

Except as specified below excluding Canadian airspace and/or unless authorized by ATC in consultation with the air traffic security coordinator via the domestic events network (DEN):
A. All aircraft operations within the 10 NMR area(s) listed above, known as the inner core(s), are prohibited except for: Approved law enforcement, military aircraft directly supporting the United States Secret Service (USSS) and the office of the President of the United States, approved air ambulance flights, and regularly scheduled commercial passenger and all-cargo carriers operating under one of the following TSA-Approved standard security programs/procedures: aircraft operator standard security program (AOSSP), full all-cargo aircraft operator standard security program (FACAOSSP), model security program (MSP), twelve five standard security program (TFSSP) all cargo, or all-cargo international security procedure (ACISP) and are arriving into and/or departing from 14 cfr part 139 airports. All emergency/life saving flight (medical/law enforcement/firefighting) operations must coordinate with ATC prior to their departure at 216-898-2077 to avoid potential delays.

Now, I admit that there is the "unless authorized by ATC in consultation..." clause, but that could be authorized VFR as well as IFR with about the same probability; i.e. zero.

 

[steingar]

If I recall correctly, I could move it outside the 10nm ring and get out with a squawk code and a comm frequency, though I am at a loss to know how I would get those prior to leaving for a VFR flight. I think there is a mechanism though. That's assuming I know where the TFR is centered, and where the 10nm mile ring is. The FAA hasn't bothered to tell me yet.

 

[gprellwitz]

If I recall correctly, I could move it outside the 10nm ring and get out with a squawk code and a comm frequency, though I am at a loss to know how I would get those prior to leaving for a VFR flight. I think there is a mechanism though. That's assuming I know where the TFR is centered, and where the 10nm mile ring is. The FAA hasn't bothered to tell me yet.

Yes, you could. I'd start by calling the national clearance delivery number: 1-888-766-8267.

They've told you now: http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_0_1340.html

Area A Airspace Definition:

Center: On the DRYER VOR/DME (DJB) 083 degree radial at 14.4 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º24'27"N, Longitude: 81º50'58"W)

Radius: 30 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 1845 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1445 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2000 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1600 EDT)
Area B Airspace Definition:

Center: On the DRYER VOR/DME (DJB) 083 degree radial at 14.4 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º24'27"N, Longitude: 81º50'58"W)

Radius: 10 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 1845 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1445 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2000 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1600 EDT)
Area C Airspace Definition:

Center: On the CHARDON VOR/DME (CXR) 273 degree radial at 12.6 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º30'36"N, Longitude: 81º26'32"W)

Radius: 30 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 1930 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1530 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2145 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1745 EDT)
Area D Airspace Definition:

Center: On the CHARDON VOR/DME (CXR) 273 degree radial at 12.6 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º30'36"N, Longitude: 81º26'32"W)

Radius: 10 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 1930 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1530 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2145 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1745 EDT)
Area E Airspace Definition:

Center: On the DRYER VOR/DME (DJB) 083 degree radial at 14.4 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º24'27"N, Longitude: 81º50'58"W)

Radius: 30 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 2115 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1715 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2230 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1830 EDT)
Area F Airspace Definition:

Center: On the DRYER VOR/DME (DJB) 083 degree radial at 14.4 nautical miles. (Latitude: 41º24'27"N, Longitude: 81º50'58"W)

Radius: 10 nautical miles

Altitude: From the surface up to but not including 18000 feet MSL Effective Date(s):

From October 17, 2010 at 2115 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1715 EDT)

To October 17, 2010 at 2230 UTC (October 17, 2010 at 1830 EDT)

 

[steingar]

That's up in Cleveland, and isn't the one I'm worried about. This here is the one I'm worried about, and it only just went up. Good news (now that I can finally see the $%#^!!&%$#!! thing) is we could fly, so long as we get back before 6:00. That's assuming that the Presidential VIP doesn't get here early.

 

[skidoo]

So what would happen if 100, 200, or more pilots, as a protest, flew circles one mile outside the tfr all going the same either clockwise or counterclockwise all at the same time. Perhaps that would bring some attention to the issue.

Then, how about if simultaneously everyone turns towards the center for 1/2 mile then back out and resume the circle.?

 

[Pilawt]

Looks like the Portland-Vancouver area gets a two-fer next week. VPOTUS speechifies at our airport on Tuesday and and POTUS will be just across the river in Portland on Wednesday. They tell us we may have "taxiing restrictions" on Tuesday even when the airport is open -- it's an uncontrolled field, so I'm not sure how that's gonna work.

So what would happen if 100, 200, or more pilots, as a protest, flew circles one mile outside the tfr all going the same either clockwise or counterclockwise all at the same time. Perhaps that would bring some attention to the issue.

Then, how about if simultaneously everyone turns towards the center for 1/2 mile then back out and resume the circle.?

You already know the answer to that one -- if it were reported at all, it would be reported in such a manner as to convince the non-flying public of what they already vaguely perceive: that "private pilots" are an irresponsible, insufficiently-regulated bunch of wealthy ne'er-do-wells whose little airplanes pose an unreasonable national security risk, and that the country would be better off with the whole lot of them grounded forever.

 

[Palmpilot]

So what would happen if 100, 200, or more pilots, as a protest, flew circles one mile outside the tfr all going the same either clockwise or counterclockwise all at the same time. Perhaps that would bring some attention to the issue.

Then, how about if simultaneously everyone turns towards the center for 1/2 mile then back out and resume the circle.?

What would happen is they would make the TFRs larger (or worse). Meanwhile, it would give people yet another excuse to complain about spoiled, rich pilots.

 

[Telemakhos]

Might move the plane, or even get out from under the damn thing, but I have no idea when it starts. If the O. decides to hang out in my little burg for the day, I'm screwed. Can't move it today or tomorrow, I have a life. Very frustrating either way.

Hmmm. He might stay a while. How strong is the SEIU presence where you live?

 

[chucky]

Does AOPA or someone else ever bother to compute the cost in lost business/inconvenience to local airports (and by extension to local communities)? It might make a decent letter to the editor. It makes it a little bit harder to vilify the pilots if you frame the discussion from the outset in terms of their contributions to the economy.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

What would happen is they would make the TFRs larger (or worse). Meanwhile, it would give people yet another excuse to complain about spoiled, rich pilots.

Which is kinda ironic since not all Private Pilots are rich.

 

[silver-eagle]

I had an EAA Young Eagles event scheduled for Saturday the 16th. The airport is about 26 miles from the the pres. After a couple of weeks of advertising, we've rescheduled for Oct 23rd. Seems the airport and FBO are not available and have effectively canceled us out.
On the other hand, looks like we only had 2 confirmed pilots and the potential for 50-60 children (someone invited the YMCA and Boys and Girls Clubs).
I don't mind the presidential TFRs if the guys were doing presidential business. But in these cases, it's stumping for votes. Now really, in Massachusetts, it probably isn't needed anyway as most voters would elect a ham sammich if it ran democrat!