Another rare occurrence

Gerhardt

Gerhardt

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Gerhardt
A story ran this weekend about a police sgt. for our town who was visiting friends in another town 60 miles from here. A 70 year old guy had a stroke while driving and hit the house belonging to the friend the sgt. was visiting. There was minor damage to the house and his truck. The cop pulled the old man from his truck, put him on the ground with his kneee on his kneck and hands restrained behind his back until the police arrived.

The cop was 60 miles outside of his jurisdiction and off duty. If you or I had done that we'd still be behind bars. It stymies me how this guy so far is getting a pass.

Sidenote: I also think the old man should be behind bars, as I read this morning it was his second recent health-related accident.

I just can't imagine the kind of life-altering crap I'd suffer for pulling someone from their vehicle and restraining them like that after an auto accident.
 
an old guy has a stroke and you think he should be behind bars? for what exactly? getting old? :confused:
 
Bob Noel said:
an old guy has a stroke and you think he should be behind bars? for what exactly? getting old? :confused:
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Probably not behind bars, but definitely should have the DL revoked if this is his 2nd health-related incident. The cases where officers have been accused of using excessive force are still few and far between compared to the total number of incidents. Depending on the situation (who knows if the old guy was combative or tried to leave the scene), the use of force may have been justified. I have to imagine it would be extremely difficult to remain unbiased throughout a LEO career when it comes to dealing with certain situations. Every last move is scrutinized.
 
Bob Noel said:
an old guy has a stroke and you think he should be behind bars? for what exactly? getting old? :confused:
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Right!

If that's deserving of having your freedoms taken, the off duty cop should be hanged.


Second thought inmates receive better healthcare than Medicare/obamacare
 
Gerhardt said:
I also think the old man should be behind bars, as I read this morning it was his second recent health-related accident.
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Gosh, that's horrible. I hope you never get old and have a medical condition.
 
Gerhardt said:
A story ran this weekend about a police sgt. for our town who was visiting friends in another town 60 miles from here. A 70 year old guy had a stroke while driving and hit the house belonging to the friend the sgt. was visiting. There was minor damage to the house and his truck. The cop pulled the old man from his truck, put him on the ground with his kneee on his kneck and hands restrained behind his back until the police arrived.

The cop was 60 miles outside of his jurisdiction and off duty. If you or I had done that we'd still be behind bars. It stymies me how this guy so far is getting a pass.

Sidenote: I also think the old man should be behind bars, as I read this morning it was his second recent health-related accident.

I just can't imagine the kind of life-altering crap I'd suffer for pulling someone from their vehicle and restraining them like that after an auto accident.
Click to expand...

Because there's "us" and there's "them."

We are "them."
 
Bob Noel said:
an old guy has a stroke and you think he should be behind bars? for what exactly? getting old? :confused:
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Endangering others when he knows he's not physically fit to drive. Two accidents relatively close together from disorientation and almost losing consciousness. The first one gets a free pass, but if he keeps driving knowing he could kill others, that's inexcusable.



SoonerAviator said:
The cases where officers have been accused of using excessive force are still few and far between compared to the total number of incidents. Depending on the situation (who knows if the old guy was combative or tried to leave the scene), the use of force may have been justified.
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No, the old man was just sitting in his truck, still disoriented, when the guy pulled him from the truck and subdued him. But this isn't excessive use of force by a police officer. This is kidnapping and battery by a common citizen who happens to have a badge in another jurisdiction.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Depending on the situation (who knows if the old guy was combative or tried to leave the scene), the use of force may have been justified.
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One thing is sure: The cop will have plenty of time to review all available evidence and get his story straight before a sympathetic panel of his colleagues determines that the use of force was justifiable. :mad:
 
Gerhardt said:
No, the old man was just sitting in his truck, still disoriented, when the guy pulled him from the truck and subdued him. But this isn't excessive use of force by a police officer. This is kidnapping and battery by a common citizen who happens to have a badge in another jurisdiction.
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With your background in law enforcement :)rolleyes:), tell us how, in your expert opinion, you'd distinguish between this "disoriented" condition and, say...being drunk? :dunno:

FYI, over the years I've made three citizen's arrests of drunk drivers. There's no such thing as "jurisdiction" for a citizen's arrest.
 
The old man probably had a first class FAA medical. :lol:

That said, It's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between being drunk and being in a diabetic coma. Cop may have thought the old man was drunk.
 
but he had a drivers license, hope he wasn't a pilot because if the third class medical goes away he could have been in an aircraft.
 
LDJones said:
With your background in law enforcement :)rolleyes:), tell us how, in your expert opinion, you'd distinguish between this "disoriented" condition and, say...being drunk? :dunno:

FYI, over the years I've made three citizen's arrests of drunk drivers. There's no such thing as "jurisdiction" for a citizen's arrest.
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With your background in law enforcement, tell us how, in your expert opinion you'd have handled this? The old man committed no crime, but the cop did.

So with your bright(?) legal mind you're saying it's legit to make a citizen's arrest of a driver who is, in fact, not drunk and there is no evidence to support him being drunk? All you have is a disoriented 70 YO man involved in an auto accident. I think I can see why you changed careers.

You're an internet tough guy, but there are a lot of people out there I'd love to see you try to make a citizens arrest for a simple auto accident where they are in fact not drunk.
 
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Gerhardt said:
Endangering others when he knows he's not physically fit to drive. Two accidents relatively close together from disorientation and almost losing consciousness. The first one gets a free pass, but if he keeps driving knowing he could kill others, that's inexcusable.
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A guess there are facts of this case that weren't revealed in the OP.

How do you know that he knew he was unfit to drive?

How do you know that he was unfit to drive?
 
Oddly, you still didnt answer the question. The symptoms of a stroke and the 'symptoms' of being intoxicated are very similar: slurred speech, disorientation, lack of faculties, confusion, lack of muscular control, etc. Oh yeah, and driving into a HOUSE!

Which has a higher probability of having just occurred when a guy (regardless of age) drives into a house? A stroke or an intoxicated driver??

Soooo, I'm pretty sure I would have detained the driver as well. Certainly not with excessive force, but with enough force that he wasnt leaving. Since you were there, how much force was required? Oh wait....you wernt there...
 
JCranford said:
Oddly, you still didnt answer the question. The symptoms of a stroke and the 'symptoms' of being intoxicated are very similar: slurred speech, disorientation, lack of faculties, confusion, lack of muscular control, etc. Oh yeah, and driving into a HOUSE!

Which has a higher probability of having just occurred when a guy (regardless of age) drives into a house? A stroke or an intoxicated driver??

Soooo, I'm pretty sure I would have detained the driver as well. Certainly not with excessive force, but with enough force that he wasnt leaving. Since you were there, how much force was required? Oh wait....you wernt there...
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Well, if he was trying to leave, as a citizen, you call the police.

But since he wasn't trying to leave...
 
JCranford said:
Oddly, you still didnt answer the question. The symptoms of a stroke and the 'symptoms' of being intoxicated are very similar: slurred speech, disorientation, lack of faculties, confusion, lack of muscular control, etc. Oh yeah, and driving into a HOUSE!

Which has a higher probability of having just occurred when a guy (regardless of age) drives into a house? A stroke or an intoxicated driver??

Soooo, I'm pretty sure I would have detained the driver as well. Certainly not with excessive force, but with enough force that he wasnt leaving. Since you were there, how much force was required? Oh wait....you wernt there...
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70 year old man has a stroke, you decide to put hands on him instead of getting him to a stroke center ASAP, even though I'm guessing he doesn't smell like booze or like he ODed on breath mints or something, boy we got ourselves a real hero here :rolleyes:
 
I'm happy the cop is safe. you never know who/what you are dealing with these days.
 
JCranford said:
Oddly, you still didnt answer the question. The symptoms of a stroke and the 'symptoms' of being intoxicated are very similar: slurred speech, disorientation, lack of faculties, confusion, lack of muscular control, etc. Oh yeah, and driving into a HOUSE!

Which has a higher probability of having just occurred when a guy (regardless of age) drives into a house? A stroke or an intoxicated driver??

Soooo, I'm pretty sure I would have detained the driver as well. Certainly not with excessive force, but with enough force that he wasnt leaving. Since you were there, how much force was required? Oh wait....you wernt there...
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I wasn't there either, so it's hard to say. I do know, however, that people drunk enough to drive their vehicles into houses usually reek of alcohol and tend to be combative. People who are ill and asking for help, not so much.

I think it's fair to say that if I encountered a driver who did not smell of alcohol, who was 70 years of age, who had just been involved in a low-speed crash into a house, who was in fact telling me that he thought he was having a stroke, who was unable to get out of his car, and who was asking for my help rather than being combative, I'd suspect medical impairment as being more likely than intoxication. Call me crazy, but that sounds like a guy who, well, is having a stroke, not a guy who's drunk.

According to Officer Hedrick's account, he pulled Miller out of the vehicle because he refused to get out when ordered. Miller doesn't dispute that, but claims that he informed the officer that he thought he was having a stroke, which is something he claims to have repeatedly told Hedrick throughout the incident. Both agree that Hedrick pulled Miller out of the car and held him to the ground with a knee to his neck. Miller claims that he specifically told Hedrick that he'd had a blockage in that artery and asked him to remove his knee.

What's most troubling to me is that the Columbia PD (by which Hedrick is employed) isn't even investigating the incident. Neither, apparently, is the Marshall PD, which is where the incident occurred. The lack of any official investigation is much more troubling to me than whether or not Hendrick acted properly. At best, the lack of an investigation reeks of arrogance and preferential treatment; and at worst, it reeks of outright corruption.

Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
What's most troubling to me is that the Columbia PD (by which Hendrick is employed) isn't even investigating the incident. Neither, apparently, is the Marshall PD, which is where the incident occurred. The lack of any official investigation is much more troubling to me than whether or not Hendrick acted properly. At best, the lack of an investigation reeks of arrogance and preferential treatment; and at worst, it reeks of outright corruption.

Rich
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Or, as it's know in the Blue Mafia, "professional courtesy."
 
Gerhardt said:
Endangering others when he knows he's not physically fit to drive. Two accidents relatively close together from disorientation and almost losing consciousness. The first one gets a free pass, but if he keeps driving knowing he could kill others, that's inexcusable.





No, the old man was just sitting in his truck, still disoriented, when the guy pulled him from the truck and subdued him. But this isn't excessive use of force by a police officer. This is kidnapping and battery by a common citizen who happens to have a badge in another jurisdiction.
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That is the funniest thing I have ever read..!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Jim Logajan said:
Um, is there some reason no link has been posted to the story?

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news...cle_6f2b25d2-37c1-52fd-8c51-9bad5b8d9c57.html

Edit; also here with other details:
http://www.marshallnews.com/story/2235361.html
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That's good. Apparently Marshall is in fact investigating. The earlier stories explicitly stated that Columbia wasn't investigating the incident, and didn't mention anything about Marshall investigating it. Maybe there was enough public sentiment in Marshall to force the prosecutor's hand.

If it turns out that Hedrick acted in an acceptable, albeit less-than-exemplary manner, then so be it. But the incident deserves at least an impartial investigation.

Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
According to Officer Hendrick's account, he pulled Miller out of the vehicle because he refused to get out when ordered.
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Ordered? This struck me as a strange comment from the off duty officer...
 
Judge, jury and executioner all in one.... Off a media report none the less, because we all know they get full access to all the case info, videos, statements and toxicology reports.


Stay classy, bro. :rolleyes2:


Gerhardt said:
A story ran this weekend about a police sgt. for our town who was visiting friends in another town 60 miles from here. A 70 year old guy had a stroke while driving and hit the house belonging to the friend the sgt. was visiting. There was minor damage to the house and his truck. The cop pulled the old man from his truck, put him on the ground with his kneee on his kneck and hands restrained behind his back until the police arrived.

The cop was 60 miles outside of his jurisdiction and off duty. If you or I had done that we'd still be behind bars. It stymies me how this guy so far is getting a pass.

Sidenote: I also think the old man should be behind bars, as I read this morning it was his second recent health-related accident.

I just can't imagine the kind of life-altering crap I'd suffer for pulling someone from their vehicle and restraining them like that after an auto accident.
Click to expand...
 
Gerhardt said:
Well, if he was trying to leave, as a citizen, you call the police.

But since he wasn't trying to leave...
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Right, because you are undoubtably a liberal democrat with a statement like that. "Call the police, I am a helpless, gun fearing man incapable of solving my own problems that pummels the police when they do their job, and beg them to help when I am too scared to defend myself."

Let me guess.....you have very soft hands and don't shake a mans hand with any perceivable pressure?
 
The standards to becoming a cop and remaining a cop should be higher. Being a good law enforcement Officer is a tough job mentally. People used to proudly serve the police departments, now we seem to have a significant percentage of Officers that are hoping to "survive" the departments just to get the pension.

If the 70 year old was in fact, having a stroke and he died while the officer had his knee on his neck, it would further fuel the perception that way too many of these officers are not fit to do the job and that's a problem for all of us. I'm sick of the lame "us against the world" excuse I hear way too often by those that are bad at the job. If your training doesn't keep you from overreacting out of fear or adrenaline or whatever, you're doing the wrong job.

As far as jurisdiction is concerned, I think a cop is a cop anywhere if he's serving and protecting. If he's screwing up, even in his own jurisdiction, he needs to be objectively dealt with instead of blindly defended by the department or union. Loyalty is one thing, covering corruption and screw ups is another.
 
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I just read the media stories. Its sadly funny that you cop haters take media reports as gospel when it involved possible cop misconduct but question every other type media report out there. Youre pretty much basing the entire event off the driver's statements! He was 'slammed to the ground' says the driver. He 'put his knee on my neck' says the driver. Everybody who has ever been removed from a vehicle by a cop was 'slammed to the ground' according to them. There wasn't a single independent witness quoted in the story. I stand by my original assessment.
 
JCranford said:
I just read the media stories. Its sadly funny that you cop haters take media reports as gospel when it involved possible cop misconduct but question every other type media report out there. Youre pretty much basing the entire event off the driver's statements! He was 'slammed to the ground' says the driver. He 'put his knee on my neck' says the driver. Everybody who has ever been removed from a vehicle by a cop was 'slammed to the ground' according to them. There wasn't a single independent witness quoted in the story. I stand by my original assessment.
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Agreed, which is why I am not as quick to jump to conclusions based off of one news story. Very rarely do they get the LEO's side of the story, then everyone cries foul on police brutality. There are times when police abuse their power, but not every claim you see in the news is verification of abuse. Innocent until proven guilty, even for police.
 
JCranford said:
I just read the media stories. Its sadly funny that you cop haters take media reports as gospel when it involved possible cop misconduct but question every other type media report out there. Youre pretty much basing the entire event off the driver's statements! He was 'slammed to the ground' says the driver. He 'put his knee on my neck' says the driver. Everybody who has ever been removed from a vehicle by a cop was 'slammed to the ground' according to them. There wasn't a single independent witness quoted in the story. I stand by my original assessment.
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If the conclusion you reached after reading the posts here is that the posters are "cop haters" because they want a fair and impartial investigation, then I truly hope that you find another line of work -- the sooner, the better.

The perpetual and unavoidable problem with choosing people to serve as police officers is that the ones who most desperately want the job are often the ones who are least suitable for the job.

Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
If the conclusion you reached after reading the posts here is that the posters are "cop haters" because they want a fair and impartial investigation, then I truly hope that you find another line of work -- the sooner, the better.

The perpetual and unavoidable problem with choosing people to serve as police officers is that the ones who most desperately want the job are often the ones who are least suitable for the job.

Rich
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Well said Rich
 
While the behavior of the LEO in question sounds a bit over the top, I'll bet the activities of off duty LEOs have been far more beneficial as a whole.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How would he have failed the third class medical exam before he had a stroke?
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even after a stroke he apparently still held a drivers license. so under the idea of removing the third class medical he could act as PIC in aircraft because he had a drivers license. Thats my point, different states are all over the map about revoking drivers licenses for medical reasons. This guy felt he was medically fit to drive its is not much to think that if he were a pilot he would still fly.
 
unsafervguy said:
even after a stroke he apparently still held a drivers license. so under the idea of removing the third class medical he could act as PIC in aircraft because he had a drivers license.
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61.53

Thats my point, different states are all over the map about revoking drivers licenses for medical reasons.
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And, after his stroke, he still would have had his medical for some period of time. Perhaps years. How would it be different? If this guy felt he was medically fit to drive, its is not much to think that if he were a pilot he would still fly. 61.53 is just as easy to ignore if you have a certificate.

And, a requirement (or not) for an FAA medical of any class would not have had any impact on the first accident.
 
So if I saw this crazy guy rip a old man out of a car crash (c spine anyone?) and put him on the ground only to start chocking him with his knee, I'd probably think the nutjob beating on the elderly gentleman was drunk, what would have happened if I subdued him?

Or is that not a two way street?
 
Gerhardt said:
A story ran this weekend about a police sgt. for our town who was visiting friends in another town 60 miles from here. A 70 year old guy had a stroke while driving and hit the house belonging to the friend the sgt. was visiting. There was minor damage to the house and his truck. The cop pulled the old man from his truck, put him on the ground with his kneee on his kneck and hands restrained behind his back until the police arrived.

The cop was 60 miles outside of his jurisdiction and off duty. If you or I had done that we'd still be behind bars. It stymies me how this guy so far is getting a pass.

Sidenote: I also think the old man should be behind bars, as I read this morning it was his second recent health-related accident.

I just can't imagine the kind of life-altering crap I'd suffer for pulling someone from their vehicle and restraining them like that after an auto accident.
Click to expand...

It will be interesting to see the FACTS play out in this case....

At face value, it smells like a cop with a big badge and a small dick..:rolleyes:
 
Gerhardt said:
With your background in law enforcement, tell us how, in your expert opinion you'd have handled this? The old man committed no crime, but the cop did.
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The old man committed no crime, but you want to put him in jail. I'm cornfuzzled. :confused::confused::rolleyes:
 
RJM62 said:
But the incident deserves at least an impartial investigation.
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"We've investigated ourselves and have found that we did nothing wrong." :)

I want a job where if I screw up, they give me "Paid Administrative Leave". Never happen in my line of work and a "Right to Work" State.

The second I did something that even remotely had a hint of harming a customer, the next two words I would hear would be, "You're fired." I could fight it out in court, but never in a million years would I get paid while the investigation was going on. Ever.
 
I've seen it all out working construction with trucks set up in the streets and the highways.

An old woman plowed into our trucks one day <no one was hurt thank God> but she was wacked out of her mind either from meds or lack thereof. Another car pulled up after she wrecked and they said they had been following her for blocks, she ran every stop sign and red light and just lucked up on one of our 30,000lb. line trucks. That stopped her.

So you never know, is my stupid point.
 
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