Another mid-air.

Ain't that swell.....how much you wanna bet the biplane was NORDO and the Cherokee talking up a storm?
 
Someone was not aware of their surroundings. Glad no injuries.
 
Unit74 said:
Ain't that swell.....how much you wanna bet the biplane was NORDO and the Cherokee talking up a storm?
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Humans are awesome, blame automatically goes to the least popular. Sigh.
 
Maybe we can have another 300 post thread about not running into other aircraft in the pattern.
 
Unit74 said:
Ain't that swell.....how much you wanna bet the biplane was NORDO and the Cherokee talking up a storm?
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Spoken like a true rote procedure monkey. What makes you think the Pitts had no radio? I haven't seen one without a radio in about 30 years.
 
Unit74 said:
Haven't seen a Cherokee pilot crash and burn upside down trying to cut a ribbon in half though......:rolleyes2:
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I don't suppose there's a point in there about mid-airs. Nevermind, don't stress yourself.
 
Three S-1S Pitts at my home field. All three have radios which are used regularly. One Cherokee...rarely flown. The Pitts are extremely blind directly ahead, even in flight.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4
 
Last time I had a close call in the pattern I had called a couple of miles out then called on downwind and called as I turned base. A 172 that flew a straight in approach without saying a word on the radio flew right in front of me and landed. He got an earful when I landed. By the way I was flying a biplane with a radio. Don
 
RoscoeT said:
Spoken like a true rote procedure monkey. What makes you think the Pitts had no radio? I haven't seen one without a radio in about 30 years.
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My experience... All sorts of goons who have no regard, no care and no desire to have any situational awareness.

As for diving into cheap name calling.... Well..... Stay classy Roscoe. :(
 
Unit74 said:
My experience... All sorts of goons who have no regard, no care and no desire to have any situational awareness.

As for diving into cheap name calling.... Well..... Stay classy Roscoe. :(
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Then your experience is very limited, and I'd bet you have a very selective memory. You made a very lowbrow original statement about an entire class of aircraft. Stay classy yourself. Probably jealous too. ;)
 
I was in the pattern at Clearview, which is a few miles away when this happened. Different CTAF frequency though so we didn't hear what calls were being made. Heard about it after we landed. The Pitts is basically folded in half in the grass. The pilot was taken to shock trauma due to mechanism and released shortly thereafter. The pilot of the cherokee was not injured and not transported. All were extremely lucky. A few inches would have made it a double fatal.

When we landed, the office called on unicom and said "The FAA is on the phone, they'd like to speak with you." A little worrisome, and I was looking around for fighter jets. They wanted to know if we saw or heard anything from the crash, which we did not.

Since we have no idea who was or was not talking on the radio or what those talking actually said, I really don't think anyone can make any remotely educated guess. The only thing we can all probably recognize is the Pitts has a very little forward visibility and a much steeper approach. So it isn't surprising that he didn't see the piper below and ahead of him.
 
If the aircraft with the least visibility is always at fault then the Cirrus must be at fault in the other midair.:goofy:
 
RoscoeT said:
Then your experience is very limited, and I'd bet you have a very selective memory. You made a very lowbrow original statement about an entire class of aircraft. Stay classy yourself. Probably jealous too. ;)
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Can't let it go, eh? Seriously? More insults and disparaging comments? Does it make you feel better now all puffed up like a sage grouse? I'm not impressed or swayed. :rolleyes:
 
ClimbnSink said:
If the aircraft with the least visibility is always at fault then the Cirrus must be at fault in the other midair.:goofy:
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Can you be more specific? They seem to crash all the time. Well, at least thats what AOPA told me when I called for a quote on one and was told it was $4k a year on an $175k SR22 I was looking at.
 
So it isn't surprising that he didn't see the piper below and ahead of him.
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I'll bet neither airplane saw each other. I'll also bet nobody on this forum knows all the facts surrounding this incident.

Unit74 said:
Jump on him Greg and Roscoe..... Clearly another hater.:rolleyes2:
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Nope, just you so far. ;)
 
I wasn't faulting or blaming him for not having x-ray vision. I was merely stating that his visibility is likely a factor. It is not wrong or defective. It is what it is. I didn't say anything about the piper not seeing the Pitts since it's kind of a given. I think that goes without saying since the Pitts was above and behind him.

Once those two planes were on final, they were completely invisible to one another. No amount of "looking for traffic" will let you see through the floor or the roof. So neither pilot is wrong for not seeing the other once they were both on final. It's not physically possible.

Looking out on all the other legs of the pattern is another story. And talking on the radio is another story. The details of which nobody here knows, so nothing can really be said or inferred.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I wasn't faulting or blaming him for not having x-ray vision. I was merely stating that his visibility is likely a factor. It is not wrong or defective. It is what it is. I didn't say anything about the piper not seeing the Pitts since it's kind of a given. I think that goes without saying since the Pitts was above and behind him.

Once those two planes were on final, they were completely invisible to one another. No amount of "looking for traffic" will let you see through the floor or the roof. So neither pilot is wrong for not seeing the other once they were both on final. It's not physically possible.

Looking out on all the other legs of the pattern is another story. And talking on the radio is another story. The details of which nobody here knows, so nothing can really be said or inferred.
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I know. I wasn't even responding to you - just the context of your quote that Mr. 74 tried to spin. Everything you write above is correct and rational. I like rationality. :cheerswine:
 
RoscoeT said:
II like rationality. :cheerswine:
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And love insults as a form of expressing an opposing view. Shows your true colors, especially when you start gathering others under your wing to try and bolster your view. :nono: I'm not impressed or swayed at all....
 
Speaking of insults, you took the lead on that.

Unit74 said:
Shows your true colors, especially when you start gathering others under your wing to try and bolster your view. :nono:
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Not sure what you think "my view" is. If it's that you made unfair, immature, and ignorant statements, then you are correct. I don't think I need to "gather" anyone on this. It seems others already share this "view" if you happen to have read the other posts here. Carry on.
 
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Unit74 said:
...how much you wanna bet the biplane was NORDO and the Cherokee talking up a storm?
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How much are you offering?
The completely uninformed jump to speculation and character assassination that exist in POA is at times amusing, alarming, or just downright disgusting.

Nauga,
whose angels don't want to wear his red shoes
 
What I'm wondering is why is everyone in the Mid-atlantic states crashing? Citizens of Rome the only ones with enough money to fly nowadays?
 
As a Pitts pilot, you'd be surprised how many people pull out in front of you. A Pitts on final is a much tighter and higher profile than a Cherokee. The decent in the pattern is ~2,000 FPM, so someone unfamiliar with the profile holding short for takeoff will look in the wrong place when they hear "Pitts short final runway XX." Pilots that fly Pitts and other biplanes are very defensive in the pattern and aware of the blind spots. I don't know the facts of the Cherokee and the Pitts, but I've had my share of go arounds because of pilots that are unfamiliar with a Pitts pattern and pull out.
 
ClimbnSink said:
What I'm wondering is why is everyone in the Mid-atlantic states crashing? Citizens of Rome the only ones with enough money to fly nowadays?
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The general proximity to myself is not giving me the warm and fuzzies, that's for sure. The FDK midair, a CFI and student out of FDK in a CFIT crash a month later, the Phenom into a house down the road, and this.


CFI AandP said:
As a Pitts pilot, you'd be surprised how many people pull out in front of you. A Pitts on final is a much tighter and higher profile than a Cherokee. The decent in the pattern is ~2,000 FPM, so someone unfamiliar with the profile holding short for takeoff will look in the wrong place when they hear "Pitts short final runway XX."
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I remember reading this on a forum about 8 years ago. I believe his words were "I have the glide ratio of a manhole cover". Before reading that, I would have never known. In fact, I thought the opposite. He has two wings, must glide forever! I wish more pilots were familiar with what you described.
 
RoscoeT said:
Speaking of insults, you took the lead on that.



Not sure what you think "my view" is. If it's that you made unfair, immature, and ignorant statements, then you are correct. I don't think I need to "gather" anyone on this. It seems others already share this "view" if you happen to have read the other posts here. Carry on.
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Not once did I make any personal insults, but you my friend took it below board and started your name calling out of the gate. Immature? Ignorant? Monkey?

You can't express your views in opposition without resorting to slinging names? Wow....that's rich, very, very rich.:rolleyes2:
 
CFI AandP said:
As a Pitts pilot, you'd be surprised how many people pull out in front of you. A Pitts on final is a much tighter and higher profile than a Cherokee. The decent in the pattern is ~2,000 FPM, so someone unfamiliar with the profile holding short for takeoff will look in the wrong place when they hear "Pitts short final runway XX." Pilots that fly Pitts and other biplanes are very defensive in the pattern and aware of the blind spots. I don't know the facts of the Cherokee and the Pitts, but I've had my share of go arounds because of pilots that are unfamiliar with a Pitts pattern and pull out.
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+1. Lots of pilots of regular GA aircraft "talk up a storm" on the radio, but don't use their eyeballs and common sense as much as I'd like. I've also had lots of cases of them moseying across the hold short line onto the runway without doing a simple visual check for potential traffic on short final, only because the "base to final call" I just made led them to believe I was a mile out for the 3-degree drag in, when in reality our two planes would have become intimate on the runway had I proceeded without seeing or hearing them. I think we all learned to look both ways before crossing the street as kids. Lots of pilots don't seem to transfer this basic lesson to runways.

None of this was said as if it has any bearing on this incident. Facts are unknown.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I remember reading this on a forum about 8 years ago. I believe his words were "I have the glide ratio of a manhole cover". Before reading that, I would have never known. In fact, I thought the opposite. He has two wings, must glide forever! I wish more pilots were familiar with what you described.
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Think about the kind of plane a Pitts is, I would guess the wing loading is somewhat high, it doesn't have long wings for gliding, just the opposite for aerobatics.
And consider all the drag when the power is pulled back, all kinds of struts and the flying and landing wires.
I've read that the visibility over the nose on approach is nil, that's why some Pitts pilots fly a high slight constant turn to short final, and no, short final in this case is not a 1/2 mile out.
 
frfly172 said:
Someone was not aware of their surroundings. Glad no injuries.
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Hard to be aware when the other airplane can't be seen and radio is not being used. Most of these type accidents occur , according to the faa, as one overtakes another In or near the pattern. Tough to see another aircraft thru the floor. Radio is so important, can't be stressed enough.
 
I don't know Pitts, what speed do they fly final?

Cherokee would be around 60 knots.

One thing's for sure. Neither pilot had the other one in sight. This one prove's I'd rather be lucky than good any day.
 
CFI AandP said:
As a Pitts pilot, you'd be surprised how many people pull out in front of you. A Pitts on final is a much tighter and higher profile than a Cherokee. The decent in the pattern is ~2,000 FPM, so someone unfamiliar with the profile holding short for takeoff will look in the wrong place when they hear "Pitts short final runway XX."
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I have no experience with a Pitts, but that seems dangerous to be flying a pattern that is unpredictable to the many (including myself) unfamiliar with its flight path. Cannot the descent rate be arrested with a little power on final? Is there a reason that such a steep approach must be used? Understand these are questions from someone who is ignorant, not someone asking pointed questions in accusatory fashion.
 
I am based at DMW. I have no idea who was involved in this accident, or under what circumstances.

We do have at least one Pitts and a couple of other aircraft that regularly operate nordo. It's their right. I would prefer they wouldn't, I want to hear a report so I know where to look, but that's only one man's opinion. DMW can get very busy, as it's just outside the mode C veil of the SFRA, and has a couple of approaches. Friday and Saturday was an aluminum overcast. I opted not to fly Saturday due to the traffic.

Since the FDK accident, everyone has been very concientious about position reporting. Given how busy it's been since this last nice weather break, I find it hard to believe that if someone was monitoring ctaf they wouldn't have known where the landing aircraft was.
 
txflyer said:
I don't know Pitts, what speed do they fly final?

Cherokee would be around 60 knots.

One thing's for sure. Neither pilot had the other one in sight. This one prove's I'd rather be lucky than good any day.
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That's a little like asking a 172 pilot how fast they fly on final. :) Some will say 53KT, others 70KT. A Pitts is like any other airplane - many fly them unnecessarily fast on final. Most Cherokee pilots I see fly final more like 70 KTS than 60 though. The Pitts involved here was a FP prop, single seat factory-built 'S-1S' model like mine. Sad to see it wadded up, since only around 60 were ever built in the mid-late 70's. Pilots fly these models anywhere between 70-90KT on final, even though there is no need for more than 74KT in normal conditions. I typically use 72-74KT. 70KT is about the minimum feasible power off approach speed, and at that speed you need to be in smooth air, light on fuel, and on your game if you want to avoid an unpleasant (but not necessarily damaging) runway arrival. The two-seat Pitts models with constant speed props typically fly final about 10KT faster than this one.

PPC1052 said:
I have no experience with a Pitts, but that seems dangerous to be flying a pattern that is unpredictable to the many (including myself) unfamiliar with its flight path. Cannot the descent rate be arrested with a little power on final? Is there a reason that such a steep approach must be used? Understand these are questions from someone who is ignorant, not someone asking pointed questions in accusatory fashion.
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It's not dangerous, just different. Aircraft types flying a pattern at airports are wide-ranging, with pattern profiles to match. It's all about using your eyes, having consideration, and communicating. I coexist at an airport with lots of trainer activity without issue.

Yes, you can fly a shallow approach with power, but this raises the nose even further, making visibility worse. It's actually somewhat unsafe to fly a shallow, power-on, straight-in approach in a Pitts, especially if you're coming in over obstacles. It's not that the runway disappears - most of the airport disappears. :) In fact, you're sitting there blind as a bat waiting for the runway edges to flash into your peripheral vision as you get near the ground. I don't like that. If you are flying a shallow approach in a Pitts (requires a lot of power), you need to be slipping slightly, or flying a curved approach to maintain some visual contact with the runway and any traffic on or around it. Lots of people carry a little power on approach in a Pitts, but it is still a whole lot steeper than a Cessna approach. Some just don't like dragging in their approach with power if a power off approach works just fine. That would describe me. I always come in high and tight, in a slipping turn all the way down to the runway. I check for traffic on final, and never lose sight of the runway in front of me until just before the wheels touch. It all happens very fast, and exposure to the pattern environment is very brief. A fairly typical 180 to land that I shot -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zERCozXB3Bo&list=UUm9cBvavbT4j6vReBu9H8Qg
 
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CFI AandP said:
As a Pitts pilot, you'd be surprised how many people pull out in front of you. A Pitts on final is a much tighter and higher profile than a Cherokee. The decent in the pattern is ~2,000 FPM, so someone unfamiliar with the profile holding short for takeoff will look in the wrong place when they hear "Pitts short final runway XX." Pilots that fly Pitts and other biplanes are very defensive in the pattern and aware of the blind spots. I don't know the facts of the Cherokee and the Pitts, but I've had my share of go arounds because of pilots that are unfamiliar with a Pitts pattern and pull out.
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I knew they had a steep approach. I had no idea it was that steep. THanks for putting numbers to it.
 
this is just the .wait....wait for it......the Pitts.:yikes::frown2:
 
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