Another Incident. This time AA

Okay.... I'll tell you what.
Write a letter and tell the secret service that if Trump doesn't do what you want you will kill him.

Let's get their opinion.


Uhhhh, man you just don't get it.

Doing what I want??
Aiight.



Let's try again

Give me 50 bucks or I'll stab you
Threat.

(To advancing person with knife in hand) If you come at me with that knife I will fire my weapon
Warning.

If that doesn't make it clear, I really don't know how I can connect the dots better for you bud
 
Here is what we're referring to James:

49 U.S. Code § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants
Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

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An individual on an aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States who, by assaulting or intimidating a flight crew member or flight attendant of the aircraft, interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 20 years, or both. However, if a dangerous weapon is used in assaulting or intimidating the member or attendant, the individual shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

(Pub. L. 103–272, § 1(e), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1244; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, § 811(i), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 382.)
 
Uhhhh, man you just don't get it.

Doing what I want??
Aiight.



Let's try again

Give me 50 bucks or I'll stab you
Threat.

(To advancing person with knife in hand) If you come at me with that knife I will fire my weapon
Warning.

If that doesn't make it clear, I really don't know how I can connect the dots better for you bud
You obviously have not flown part 121.
 
Most people know what's right and wrong, real Americans act on it, regardless of what some book or politicians opinion is, that is by definition American.

That man didn't like what he saw was happening, AA agreed it was BS as can be seen from their actions, done and done
 
Most people know what's right and wrong, real Americans act on it, regardless of what some book or politicians opinion is, that is by definition American.

That man didn't like what he saw was happening, AA agreed it was BS as can be seen from their actions, done and done
Truly a bush league pilots approach.
The actions are threatening. Period.. He must be removed.
 
That man didn't like what he saw was happening, AA agreed it was BS as can be seen from their actions, done and done
Just because AA makes a public statement saying the employees actions were not appropriate doesn't necessarily mean they are taking the pax side and disciplining him.

It simply means they learned from
Oscar Munoz stepping on his crank.

What happens behind the scene between the airline and their employee is their business.
 
Truly a bush league pilots approach.
The actions are threatening. Period.. He must be removed.

Well that's how I look at it, albeit I'm also not a huge boot licker. But hey, if that means I don't have what it takes to be a 121 driver, I'll take that as a compliment.
 
I just don't believe you're that stupid.

"If you don't do what I say I wiill kill you".
That's not a threat????

It's not a threat if it's conditional upon the actor perpetrating a felony assault, which is what the FA / Gate Agent apparently did assuming that the reports are correct. I think striking someone with a stroller would qualify as felony assault in any jurisdiction, and the fact that the actor has an airline badge and a cheesy tie doesn't change that.

So in essence, the gentleman merely warned the FA / GA that if he attempted to perpetrate felony assault against him, he would defend himself. The day that becomes a crime I'll know we've officially become a fascist state.

Rich
 
Here is what we're referring to James:

49 U.S. Code § 46504 - Interference with flight crew members and attendants
Current through Pub. L. 114-38. (See Public Laws for the current Congress.)

prev | next
An individual on an aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States who, by assaulting or intimidating a flight crew member or flight attendant of the aircraft, interferes with the performance of the duties of the member or attendant or lessens the ability of the member or attendant to perform those duties, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be fined under title 18, imprisoned for not more than 20 years, or both. However, if a dangerous weapon is used in assaulting or intimidating the member or attendant, the individual shall be imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

(Pub. L. 103–272, § 1(e), July 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 1244; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, § 811(i), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 382.)

Is felonious assault one of the duties of a crew member? Unless you can make a case for that, the cite is moot.

Rich
 
The management at American saw what happened to United just last week so they acted swiftly. That doesn't mean the passenger wasn't an ass. Both men in that confrontation were, IMHO.

In defense of the agent, it seems to me that he probably tried to remove the stroller, she resisted, and he got ****ed and whacked her with it. I doubt he went bat-**** crazy on her with it, but from what the other pax were saying, he did hit her with it. And if he did that, it's assault. Well, technically I guess it's battery.

Either way, It's more serious than if he had punched her in the mouth because the stroller would certainly qualify as a weapon. If he'd punched her in the mouth, would anyone blame the rest of the pax for kicking the living **** out of him? Hell, I'd do it myself, consequences be damned.

Rich
 
In defense of the agent, it seems to me that he probably tried to remove the stroller, she resisted, and he got ****ed and whacked her with it. I doubt he went bat-**** crazy on her with it, but from what the other pax were saying, he did hit her with it. And if he did that, it's assault. Well, technically I guess it's battery.

Either way, It's more serious than if he had punched her in the mouth because the stroller would certainly qualify as a weapon. If he'd punched her in the mouth, would anyone blame the rest of the pax for kicking the living **** out of him? Hell, I'd do it myself, consequences be damned.

Rich
I don't think anyone was trying to hit the woman or child with the stroller. I was referring to the way the gate agent/FA, or whatever he was, came back at the other guy. As I said, I think they were both asses.
 
I don't think anyone was trying to hit the woman or child with the stroller. I was referring to the way the gate agent/FA, or whatever he was, came back at the other guy. As I said, I think they were both asses.

It's impossible to say from the video. The alleged strike itself, if it actually happened, was not recorded. If it did not occur, then they were both asses. If it did occur, then I think the passenger was justified and in fact showed great restraint. I would have gone Rambo.

Rich
 
Everything I've read said flight attendant. Where are you people getting gate agent? Are you confusing it with the United incident? :confused:
 
Everything I've read said flight attendant. Where are you people getting gate agent? Are you confusing it with the United incident? :confused:

I doubt half the reporters know the difference between the two jobs. It's not clear to me which one he was. He spent more time on the jetway than in the airplane, but he could have been summoning help, giving the stroller to someone to stow it, or trying (unsuccessfully) to cool his jets, as it were.

Rich
 
In defense of the agent, it seems to me that he probably tried to remove the stroller, she resisted, and he got ****ed and whacked her with it.
I think this thing has morphed into a great big game of "telephone," internet style (as do so many other things these days). Initially, when this first broke, I had heard that the woman was hit by the stroller, as the FA tried to remove it. Now, this has now turned into the FA hit her with the stroller. I would think that if this FA (gate agent) physically swung the stroller and hit the passenger with it, you'd see a lot more animosity on the flight that just the one over eager passenger (who probably didn't see what happened, either).

It's funny how this board is so quick to condemn and media reports on aviation (rightfully so), since they so very often gets things totally wrong and just report in order to sensationalize. But yet, based on that same media's reporting of this incident and a snippet of video that started rolling well after the initial incident occurs we are ready to be the judge and jury. Case closed.

That man didn't like what he saw was happening, AA agreed it was BS as can be seen from their actions, done and done
Come'on, James. You know as well as I do that after the United incident, every airline is going to be in a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality. They do not want this to spiral a la Dr. Dao, so they knee-jerked it as quickly as they could. Suspend the FA, give the passenger a 1st class upgrade. Period. The customer is always right! Bull. Anyone who has worked in a customer service industry knows that old trope is rarely correct.

Back before the internet age and "instant gratification media" people were expected to gather information and make a decision based on facts and reason. In fact, that's the reason that Oscar Munoz wrote such a milquetoast initial response to the Dr. Dao incident. He committed the mortal sin of the information age; he was waiting to get all the facts. That earned him public scorn in this day and age of instant gratification.

Two CEOs (coincidentally airline CEOs) which are highly regarded for their airlines customer service fully believed that the customer wasn't always right, and that supporting your employees when dealing with an unreasonable customer can be the right thing to do.
Gordon Bethune said:
When we run into customers that we can’t reel back in, our loyalty is with our employees. They have to put up with this stuff every day. Just because you buy a ticket does not give you the right to abuse our employees ...

We run more than 3 million people through our books every month. One or two of those people are going to be unreasonable, demanding jerks. When it’s a choice between supporting your employees, who work with you every day and make your product what it is, or some irate jerk who demands a free ticket to Paris because you ran out of peanuts, whose side are you going to be on?

You can’t treat your employees like serfs. You have to value them ... If they think that you won’t support them when a customer is out of line, even the smallest problem can cause resentment.

Herb Kelleher said:
But aren’t customers always right? “No, they are not,” Kelleher snaps. “And I think that’s one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don’t carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, ‘Fly somebody else. Don’t abuse our people.’”
Now, I'm not saying that there aren't bad employees that need to be reined in, disciplined or fired, but don't do it before you have all the facts. Because if the facts come out and your employee was in the right (or at least didn't do wrong) and you reacted inconsistently or incorrectly you are going to lose the loyalty of your employees.
 
Not my account, but I'm hearing a similar story coming from multiple sources.
The Internet said:
I was on this flight directly across the isle from the woman filming the video. This is what I observed:
  1. Woman gets on the plane pushing a car seat type stroller with one child in it, carrying a second child on her hip and dragging behind a very large folded stroller that was too big for the overhead bin or to go under a seat.
  2. The flight attendant shown in the video approached from the back of the plane and informed her in a calm manner that there was nowhere to store the stroller. The woman immediately escalated the situation and within about 30 seconds was screaming at him at the top of her lungs.
  3. The flight attendant evidently decided she was not fit to be on the flight (in my opinion the correct decision) and started to move her and her children towards the front of the plane.
  4. When they got to the from of the plane the woman decided she was not going any further. The flight attendant picked up the stroller and lifted it over his head to try and move past the woman. As he was doing this she pushed him and the stroller fell a bit and struck her in the face. She began crying loudly and dramatically. Shortly after this is where the video begins.
  5. The first class passenger then inserts himself into the drama with his faux chivalry but clearly has no idea what has transpired in the back of the plane since he was in a window seat in the first class section of the plane and could not have viewed the incident from his seat.
  6. After another 10 minutes or so the woman exits the plane only to be returned about 5 minutes later and taken to her seat. We wait another 30-40 minutes while various flight and ground crew come and go speaking to the woman. After about 40 minutes she deplanes again this time telling all of the passengers, who are now becoming vocal in support of the flight crew, that all she wanted was an apology from the flight attendant. Evidently that's what the 40 minute delay was all about. Then we waited another 10 minutes for the ground crew to find and remove her luggage from the belly of the plane.
  7. The flight finally leaves and arrives in Dallas an hour or so late. American representatives are waiting at the gate to speak with the first class passenger who made the threats. What I heard was a very apologetic tone coming from two American employees, as if the airline had done something to upset the first class passenger.
  8. When I entered the bag claim area the first class passenger was right in front of me and as soon as he made it through the revolving door there was a camera crew waiting for him on the other side to interview him. That's about as factual of an account as I can provide and I realize there may be other parts of this story that I do not know about or did not witness.
From what I saw:
  • If anyone from American should have been punished it should be the ground crew who somehow letting this woman on board with a full size stroller. The flight attendant was put in a horrible situation by a passenger that most passengers in my immediate area thought seemed unstable. She escalated the situation, not him.
  • In my opinion, the first class passenger should have been removed. Had the flight been in progress he might very well have been arrested upon landing for threatening a crew member. Additionally, he could not have seen any of the back of the plane antics of the woman based on where he was seated.
  • I agree the flight attendant may have reacted too harshly in responding to the threatening customer in first class, but his actions with the woman in question were professional throughout the ordeal. I am disappointed American has chosen to punish him.

This to me seems to be close to the most plausible scenario. If you've ever tried to maneuver a stroller, car seat, roll-aboard down an airplane aisle, holding it above your head against the flow of passengers, there's a good chance that someone is going to get bumped in the head accidentally.

If I was this captain, neither of the two males involved would be on the flight. The FA would be removed and replaced with an airport reserve, the male passenger would be rebooked on a later flight. Despite what some people think, there is a slightly different set of rules set out for ship (where's Henning?) and airplane captains. When are you going to be in charge of that vessel in a place where it's impossible to quickly resolve problems, whether it's out at sea, or FL390 over Nebraska, the law extends some latitude to the captains to keep the problems on dry land before taking them on a journey. If both of these two flew together, it would just take something innocuous to set them off. A bump of the galley cart, a spilled drink, a sideways look. They both have already shown the inability to keep their emotions in check, and I don't need anything escalating in the back of the airplane that I can't control and may cause harm to other passengers or crew.

But that's me... luckily none of my passengers ever complain, argue or critique my landing.
 
There seems to be an epidemic of hostility and combativeness in our society generally these days, not just on airline flights. I think all people need to redouble our efforts to treat each other with kindness and respect, especially when dealing with people we disagree with.
 
There seems to be an epidemic of hostility and combativeness in our society generally these days, not just on airline flights. I think all people need to redouble our efforts to treat each other with kindness and respect, especially when dealing with people we disagree with.

I won't do it, and you're an idiot for suggesting it.

;)
 
So this dude assaults this lady with a stroller by hitting her with it and somehow this is ok? That dude should have been jailed for assualt. No one has the right to hit you with anything. You can say what you like. It does not give you the right to lay a hand on them or hit them with an object...
 
Rumor the woman shoved the FA/gate agent causing the stroller to accidently hit her. IOW she caused it. There's a lot more to this incident, and when it all comes out she will be the one looking like an idiot.

Here, FYI, this is the description going around on the interwebz:

I was on this flight directly across the isle from the woman filming the video. This is what I observed: 1.) woman gets on the plane pushing a car seat type stroller with one child in it, carrying a second child on her hip and dragging behind a very large folded stroller that was too big for the overhead bin or to go under a seat. 2.) the flight attendant shown in the video approached from the back of the plane and informed her in a calm manner that there was nowhere to store the stroller. The woman immediately escalated the situation and within about 30 seconds was screaming at him at the top of her lungs. 3.) the flight attendant evidently decided she was not fit to be on the flight (in my opinion the correct decision) and started to move her and her children towards the front of the plane. 4.) when they got to the from of the plane the woman decided she was not going any further. The flight attendant picked up the stroller and lifted it over his head to try and move past the woman. As he was doing this she pushed him and the stroller fell a bit and struck her in the face. She began crying loudly and dramatically. Shortly after this is where the video begins. 5.) The first class passenger then inserts himself into the drama with his faux chivalry but clearly has no idea what has transpired in the back of the plane since he was in a window seat in the first class section of the plane and could not have viewed the incident from his seat. 6.) after another 10 minutes or so the woman exits the plane only to be returned about 5 minutes later and taken to her seat. We wait another 30-40 minutes while various flight and ground crew come and go speaking to the woman. After about 40 minutes she deplanes again this time telling all of the passengers, who are now becoming vocal in support of the flight crew, that all she wanted was an apology from the flight attendant. Evidently that's what the 40 minute delay was all about. Then we waited another 10 minutes for the ground crew to find and remove her luggage from the belly of the plane. 7.) the flight finally leaves and arrives in Dallas an hour or so late. American representatives are waiting at the gate to speak with the first class passenger who made the threats. What I heard was a very apologetic tone coming from two American employees, as if the airline had done something to upset the first class passenger. 8.) when I entered the bag claim area the first class passenger was right in front of me and as soon as he made it through the revolving door there was a camera crew waiting for him on the other side to interview him. That's about as factual of an account as I can provide and I realize there may be other parts of this story that I do not know about or did not witness. From what I saw: a.) if anyone from American should have been punished it should be the ground crew who somehow letting this woman on board with a full size stroller. The flight attendant was put in a horrible situation by a passenger that most passengers in my immediate area thought seemed unstable. She escalated the situation, not him. b.) in my opinion, the first class passenger should have been removed. Had the flight been in progress he might very well have been arrested upon landing for threatening a crew member. Additionally, he could not have seen any of the back of the plane antics of the woman based on where he was seated. c.) I agree the flight attendant may have reacted too harshly in responding to the threatening customer in first class, but his actions with the woman in question were professional throughout the ordeal. I am disappointed American has chosen to punish him.
 
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Rumor the woman shoved the FA/gate agent causing the stroller to accidently hit her. IOW she caused it. There's a lot more to this incident, and when it all comes out she will be the one looking like an idiot.
The minute she decided to carryon the stroller she looked like an idiot.
 
The solutions exist, but they don't maximize RASM, so God/paper-bag dynamics abound. Want to de-escalate this dynamic? STOP "slimlining" coach seats into a stretched Guppy narrowbody POS. Prison riot dynamics solved.

But the airline ain't gonna do that. On the other board you have professional pilots outright applauding Jeff Smisek's decision to slimline seats, and that guy's a f---- criminal who golden parachuted before the law could catch him mind you. Wait what law? These kleptocrats don't get jail time lol, I digress.

The proliferation of the sardine can seating in the domestic market may have been good for the pilots and shareholders, but it's absolutely fostering these tensions. This is not a passenger entitlement problem, this is basic psychology management of the customers YOU HAVE, not the customers you wish you had. We're talking about Western human beings with personal proxemics circa 3 feet and social ones approaching 7 feet. So stop feigning ignorance over these simpleton issues and fix the seating. With it, the associated boarding and processing issues it causes by proxy... Or continue to face the lashing in social media, good, bad, guilty or innocent.

I don't wish 5 hours of coach 738 seating on my worst enemy. Let alone pay 1AMU per head for the privilege because "potato".
 
Seems like oh, about three days after all of these, the actual story comes out and the BS that was immediately posted to the Internet is debunked.

Oh and way more than not, the "victim" turns out to be the ass that started or brought the problems on themselves.
 
I was taught you do not hit women. But if a women is man enough to throw a punch she is man enough to take a punch. But hitting with an object, I would think that would fall under assault. I was also taught you do not hit children or endanger a child in any way. Why women pick up a child before they have an argument. You can not hit them while they are holding a baby. Who here would want to? I believe many here would hit a women while holding a baby, by the comments.
 
I was taught you do not hit women. But if a women is man enough to throw a punch she is man enough to take a punch. But hitting with an object, I would think that would fall under assault.

IF that's what actually occurred.
 
According to the man who was upset about this, that is what occurred. We could call him a witness.

Supposedly, from another account (read post #107 above), this all began further back in the cabin, where he (sitting in 1st class window seat), could not have possibly seen what happened. I think it'll all come out eventually.
 
Rumor the woman shoved the FA/gate agent causing the stroller to accidently hit her. IOW she caused it. There's a lot more to this incident, and when it all comes out she will be the one looking like an idiot.

Here, FYI, this is the description going around on the interwebz:

I was on this flight directly across the isle from the woman filming the video. This is what I observed: 1.) woman gets on the plane pushing a car seat type stroller with one child in it, carrying a second child on her hip and dragging behind a very large folded stroller that was too big for the overhead bin or to go under a seat. 2.) the flight attendant shown in the video approached from the back of the plane and informed her in a calm manner that there was nowhere to store the stroller. The woman immediately escalated the situation and within about 30 seconds was screaming at him at the top of her lungs. 3.) the flight attendant evidently decided she was not fit to be on the flight (in my opinion the correct decision) and started to move her and her children towards the front of the plane. 4.) when they got to the from of the plane the woman decided she was not going any further. The flight attendant picked up the stroller and lifted it over his head to try and move past the woman. As he was doing this she pushed him and the stroller fell a bit and struck her in the face. She began crying loudly and dramatically. Shortly after this is where the video begins. 5.) The first class passenger then inserts himself into the drama with his faux chivalry but clearly has no idea what has transpired in the back of the plane since he was in a window seat in the first class section of the plane and could not have viewed the incident from his seat. 6.) after another 10 minutes or so the woman exits the plane only to be returned about 5 minutes later and taken to her seat. We wait another 30-40 minutes while various flight and ground crew come and go speaking to the woman. After about 40 minutes she deplanes again this time telling all of the passengers, who are now becoming vocal in support of the flight crew, that all she wanted was an apology from the flight attendant. Evidently that's what the 40 minute delay was all about. Then we waited another 10 minutes for the ground crew to find and remove her luggage from the belly of the plane. 7.) the flight finally leaves and arrives in Dallas an hour or so late. American representatives are waiting at the gate to speak with the first class passenger who made the threats. What I heard was a very apologetic tone coming from two American employees, as if the airline had done something to upset the first class passenger. 8.) when I entered the bag claim area the first class passenger was right in front of me and as soon as he made it through the revolving door there was a camera crew waiting for him on the other side to interview him. That's about as factual of an account as I can provide and I realize there may be other parts of this story that I do not know about or did not witness. From what I saw: a.) if anyone from American should have been punished it should be the ground crew who somehow letting this woman on board with a full size stroller. The flight attendant was put in a horrible situation by a passenger that most passengers in my immediate area thought seemed unstable. She escalated the situation, not him. b.) in my opinion, the first class passenger should have been removed. Had the flight been in progress he might very well have been arrested upon landing for threatening a crew member. Additionally, he could not have seen any of the back of the plane antics of the woman based on where he was seated. c.) I agree the flight attendant may have reacted too harshly in responding to the threatening customer in first class, but his actions with the woman in question were professional throughout the ordeal. I am disappointed American has chosen to punish him.

Well that sheds a different light on the story. Sounds like another man baby except in female form.
 
I don't wish 5 hours of coach 738 seating on my worst enemy. Let alone pay 1AMU per head for the privilege because "potato".

Just gonna get worse, bro. Our MAX airplanes hit the line by the end of the year. 12 more passengers. 4 extra feet of tube. You do the math.

I don't think most of us celebrate this crap, but working for a US carrier requires a certain detachment from the product or you'll drive yourself nuts. Anyone that can't do that should stick to corporate.
 
Just gonna get worse, bro. Our MAX airplanes hit the line by the end of the year. 12 more passengers. 4 extra feet of tube. You do the math.

I don't think most of us celebrate this crap, but working for a US carrier requires a certain detachment from the product or you'll drive yourself nuts. Anyone that can't do that should stick to corporate.

Was chatting with either some of your co-workers or the other folks buying the Max last night over dinner. Was an interesting discussion about tire speed limits and high density altitude takeoffs. Airspeed is not how fast the tires are rolling.

One pointed out that he's even mentioned the problem to a Fed in the jumpseat who watched a takeoff in the -900 hit tire speed just as the thing lifted off they mains, and the Fed shrugged and said it wasn't any of his business. LOL.

Sorry, OT but the Max comment reminded me of the conversation. Enlightening.

Make 'em bigger. Cram 'em full. Run 'em at 99% of rated. They'll hold up. :) Here's hoping nobody buys a batch of bad tires...
 
All cuz cheapskate Boeing won't get off the pot on the old certification of the wingbox for landing gear modification in order to accomodate the retarded guppy stretch, and just tell pilots to land it hot but it's your ticket when you tail strike. Meanwhile like @kayoh190 said, two more rows on 48 inches, never mind the POS ergonomics/acoustics of the front office. So cram 'em full is right, and wait for it. I gotta stock on popcorn cuz it's gonna be a banner year when they finally start pumping the MAX into this customer service dystopia.
 
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