Another go/no go thread

[dennyleeb]

Yes it was legal. I mentioned in my post he could have stopped enroute. It was VFR. Being VFR is no guarantee of being able to land at the destination. More important he made the trip just fine.
We have all kinds of pilots on this board. From the fresh PP all the way up to pilots with multiple thousands of hours in heavy iron. We have too many light aircraft going down due to running out of fuel. Even one is too many. Also this problem seems to be more prevalent in the light aircraft with low to medium time pilots. You rarely here of turbo props and jets being flown by professional pilots having this problem. I do not want to leave the new pilot thinking that fuel reserves are no big thing. Actually they are not a big thing untill everything gets real quiet. This is more the point I was making rather than busting the OP's chops.:wink2:

in no way was it legal
he flew into known ice, with a non equipped plane, him making it safely this time makes no difference

 

[dennyleeb]

I guess you did not read where he said the mountains did not begin until a good ways into the trip. I took this to mean he would have plenty of time to climb through the clouds, or come back down if climbing above was not going to be an option.

If Dr. Bruce is correct about the letter of interpretation, it sounds like the FAA would not be after the OP for conducting the flight in the manner that he did. He had an out above and below, and very well could have encountered no ice at all.

key word
it sounds the FAA would not be after the OP , well that it their call, kinda like going 5 mph over the speed limit, it is still illegal even if you don't get a ticket

 

[ronnieh]

Denny, Denny, read the second line of post #36.
It was apparently legal as far as fuel reserves. I never said the flight was legal. In fact in post #36 I tend to agree with you but, will not make a definate statement yet. I am not sure if a pirep makes the situation "known" . I am waiting for people smarter than me to comment some more.

 

[dennyleeb]

Denny, Denny, read the second line of post #36.
It was apparently legal as far as fuel reserves. I never said the flight was legal. In fact in post #36 I tend to agree with you but, will not make a definate statement yet. I am not sure if a pirep makes the situation "known" . I am waiting for people smarter than me to comment some more.

There is nobody as smart as me. LOL

I look at this the same way as fuel starvation. Flying into known ice often creates a sinceless accident which gives GA a bad name.

When there is a pirep for icing and several thousand feet of visible moisture at or below freezing I am staying on the ground.

 

[ronnieh]

Denny, I do see your point. Full disclosure, I have almost no experience flying twins that are not FIKI. I have seen so many times this exact scenerio where almost no ice was picked up. I suspect with adaquate fuel reserves I would have made the trip without boots. Can't say for sure since I was not there. I too take ice very seriously, a pirep of moderate icing will get my attention quickly. Having said that, in the past three years I have cycled my boots perhaps a half dozen times and turned on engine heat maybe 3-4 times. Generally if there is no percipitation, and the layer is only a couple thousand feet thick you will not pick up ice at a high rate. Under these conditions as long as you can get out in 10 - 15 minutes the risk is low. Also there was above freezing conditions below. But, I would never recommend to anyone that a non booted plane should be flown into visible moisture near or below the freezing level. I suspect this particular flight would have been illegal but it might not have been dangerous. Again, JMHO.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Wow, I am really amazed with the ultra conservative opinions expressed in this thread.

The ice, I understand. I am very careful when dealing with ice. I have enough experience with trace to extreme ice encounters, and everything in between, to know how to deal with it. I did not launch without multiple escape routes, and a hair trigger to implement them. I did not launch with the intention of remaining in possible icing conditions for any length of time. If I had picked up any ice other than a trace, I was spring loaded to descend back down to VFR conditions and warmer than freezing and return to base and land. There were several airports underneath my climb to descend to, if the need should arise. If I had not popped out when I had expected to pop out, and was not able to cruise on top, then i would have elected to descend and return to base. The bases were high enough, and the higher terrain far enough away, that descending and returning home were an easy choice.

As far as fuel considerations go, Does everyone always PLAN on having a near full tank of fuel on landing and never consider any other option? This is a normal trip, done several times a year. I always plan on having 45 minute reserves, as required, and I keep an eye on use as the flight progresses. There are several airports within 10 minutes of the destination, so if something happens, I can divert if need be. If fuel use starts to be more than planned for, there are multiple airports all along the course with instrument approaches , and in this case, good VFR weather to land and refuel. There was no chance of icing past 1/3 of the trip, so,even if I had to descend on an instrument approach because of some issue, I would not have had to worry about ice there.

I see no reason to call my judgment and experience "not smart at all." I do have conservative judgment and I do have quite a bit of experience flying in icing conditions. Just because you would not have opted to do the flight does not mean someone with some experience and different knowledge than yourself might not be able to handle it.

 

[dmccormack]

Bryon,

The FAR gurus will assess the situation and let you know you when it's safe to fly again.

Expect sometime mid-June.

 

[tonycondon]

i would probably go...based on the described weather. no one throws a fit about flying a wing all summer that is covered in bug carcasses but get all bent out of shape over a micron of frost.

 

[ronnieh]

Byron, I don't think I said anything about having a full tank at the destination. For me 45 minutes after a 4 hour leg is just a little tight for me. I made it clear in my posts that I did not consider what you did as illegal or unsafe. You had many options to land short if needed and unknown to me you had alternates within 10 minutes. That is fine for you. I am not going to have to land short and explain to the boss I misfigured my fuel consumption nor and I going to cut it closer than 1 hour of reserve. Again that is me and your question is what would the readers do.
As for the ice, it is what it is. It APPEARS to me that it may have been technically illegal but I am not sure of the wording in the last oppinion that came down from on high. I addmitted I have no experience in non booted aircraft in iceing conditions so my oppinion is worth about what it cost you. Again, your question was not about legality but would I do it. My answer was I might would have based on previous experience.
As I stated we have a wide spectrum of pilots here. I do not want any new pilot to get in trouble based on what I might say or advocate on line.
If I hurt you feelings on the fuel reserve or the iceing it was not intended and I am sorry.

 

[ronnieh]

Tony, the ice on the wing is only part of the story.

 

[tonycondon]

not for me. 2 hrs of the flight is in severe clear which means plenty of outs if the fuel planning doesn't work out.

 

[Aztec Driver]

Byron, I don't think I said anything about having a full tank at the destination. For me 45 minutes after a 4 hour leg is just a little tight for me. I made it clear in my posts that I did not consider what you did as illegal or unsafe. You had many options to land short if needed and unknown to me you had alternates within 10 minutes. That is fine for you. I am not going to have to land short and explain to the boss I misfigured my fuel consumption nor and I going to cut it closer than 1 hour of reserve. Again that is me and your question is what would the readers do.
As for the ice, it is what it is. It APPEARS to me that it may have been technically illegal but I am not sure of the wording in the last oppinion that came down from on high. I addmitted I have no experience in non booted aircraft in iceing conditions so my oppinion is worth about what it cost you. Again, your question was not about legality but would I do it. My answer was I might would have based on previous experience.
As I stated we have a wide spectrum of pilots here. I do not want any new pilot to get in trouble based on what I might say or advocate on line.
If I hurt you feelings on the fuel reserve or the iceing it was not intended and I am sorry.

I understand your reservations, and no problems. No offense taken by that. I realize we have a wide range of pilots. Hopefully, newer pilots will take from this to make sure that all aspects of a flight needs to be looked at, not just a quick scan.
I was just a little irritated that someone would call my judgment "not too smart" without looking at the whole picture.