Another Cirrus down

[tspear]

MIL-HDBK-1797, Flying Qualities of Piloted Aircraft
USNTPS-FTM-103, Fixed-wing Stability and Control Theory and Flight Test Techniques

...then come back in a few years.



Nauga,
who pulls 'til the houses get bigger

lol, that is just mean; but well played....

Tim

 

[tspear]

What a cool feature. Also makes it somewhat challenging for an adventurous CSIP to do unusual attitudes with a student

I am fairly sure Cirrus was actually the first light GA plane with this Garmin feature. Anyway, since I fly an older G1 or G2 on the rental line, I have not looked but there is supposed to be a way to turn it off.

Tim

 

[Tantalum]

I am fairly sure Cirrus was actually the first light GA plane with this Garmin feature. Anyway, since I fly an older G1 or G2 on the rental line, I have not looked but there is supposed to be a way to turn it off.

I think you are right about Cirrus being the first, or at least one of the first. It's an interesting feeling when it kicks on and nudges the stick. There is a way to shut it off in one of the setup aux pages, but not really sure why anyone would. I mean, most unusual attitudes generally shouldn't be that crazy anyway

 

[PaulS]

I am fairly sure Cirrus was actually the first light GA plane with this Garmin feature. Anyway, since I fly an older G1 or G2 on the rental line, I have not looked but there is supposed to be a way to turn it off.

Tim

Not sure you can turn it off, but you can hold the A/P disconnect button on the stick to temporarily disconnect it while doing stalls and steep turns.

 

[Tantalum]

it uses the servos for the autopilot, so you can either pull the circuit breaker for that, or if you go to aux setup 2 page there's a way to shut it off there

Not sure you can turn it off

But yeah, just easier to tap the autopilot disconnect button

 

[Clip4]

It was spun 61 times in the EU and recovered every time w/o use of CAPS.

I realize that, but Cirrus has decided not to amend the AFMs with different information. So until they do, the procedure for spin recover is the CAPS. You can also read the rest of this article on AVWEB Aug 6, 2014.




“An "over-confident" salesman intentionally put a Cirrus SR22 into an aggravated stall before he lost control of the airplane and had to pull the parachute handle, according to an Australian Transport Safety Bureau report (PDF) released this week. The salesman, also a flight instructor, told investigators he routinely flew a similar flight profile to demonstrate the aerodynamic and electronic safeguards built into the aircraft to prevent an out-of-control spin. On May 10 of this year, the aircraft beat all those systems and ended up in an unrecoverable spin. The chute deployed with about 2,000 feet to spare. The aircraft landed in a flat attitude in the back garden of rural home, with a rattled salesman and two apparently less-than-impressed sales prospects able to walk away uninjured. The Cirrus POH clearly warns that the aircraft is not certified for spins and the only approved recovery is pulling the chute. The salesman said he'd done the same sort of demo at least 30 and as many as 50 times in the previous six months and thus may have been over-confident in a successful recovery.”

 

[PaulS]

I realize that, but Cirrus has decided not to amend the AFMs with different information. So until they do, the procedure for spin recover is the CAPS. You can also read the rest of this article on AVWEB Aug 6, 2014.

“An "over-confident" salesman intentionally put a Cirrus SR22 into an aggravated stall before he lost control of the airplane and had to pull the parachute handle, according to an Australian Transport Safety Bureau report (PDF) released this week. The salesman, also a flight instructor, told investigators he routinely flew a similar flight profile to demonstrate the aerodynamic and electronic safeguards built into the aircraft to prevent an out-of-control spin. On May 10 of this year, the aircraft beat all those systems and ended up in an unrecoverable spin. The chute deployed with about 2,000 feet to spare. The aircraft landed in a flat attitude in the back garden of rural home, with a rattled salesman and two apparently less-than-impressed sales prospects able to walk away uninjured. The Cirrus POH clearly warns that the aircraft is not certified for spins and the only approved recovery is pulling the chute. The salesman said he'd done the same sort of demo at least 30 and as many as 50 times in the previous six months and thus may have been over-confident in a successful recovery.”

Great report, thank you. We did a departure stall in a '16 SR 20, I'm pretty sure I was coordinated throughout the entire sequence, but the left wing did drop on stall. An increase in right rudder plus some right aileron straightened the plane right up. All in all the stalls were nothing, preceded by the stall warning, plenty of buffet and distinct break when the stall fully developed. They were easily broken by forward pressure on the stick.

The article did say that the PIC, the salesman, thought the guy in the left seat made an "uncommanded rudder input" during the stall that precipitated the spin. Contradicting stories. The guy in the left seat said he applied full left rudder, which slowed the spin to the right, then the PIC (the salesman) applied full right rudder and accelerated the spin then pulled the chute. Good thing they had it.

 

[FastEddieB]

“An "over-confident" salesman intentionally put a Cirrus SR22 into an aggravated stall before he lost control of the airplane and had to pull the parachute handle, according to an Australian Transport Safety Bureau report (PDF) released this week.”

That’s exactly what I meant when I said “there be dragons“.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That’s exactly what I meant when I said “there be dragons“.

Not unlike a T6. Straightforward, easy airplane to fly, until it isn’t....

 

[tspear]

Not unlike a T6. Straightforward, easy airplane to fly, until it isn’t....

Or an Aerostar, or Cessna 337, or Beech Bonanza V-Tail......

Tim

 

[MIFlyer]

If I ever buy a Cirrus, I'll just fly around with one hand on the chute, problem solved.

get the dead man switch stc.

if you let go, or vary pressure more than five lbs it deploys

 

[MIFlyer]

If only I knew WTF a TKS panel was....

and more importantly, what's the ICAO code for it???!! /TPNL ??

 

[MIFlyer]

PS, i think the Cirrus are incredible planes. nice to fly, integrated technology, luxurious, roomy and nice.

cons:
cost
useful load
continental engine
only 4 seats
no second engine

 

[Pilawt]

cons:
<snip>
no second engine

Yabut if it had a second engine, it would be a Continental too.

 

[mscard88]

Yabut if it had a second engine, it would be a Continental too.

Why couldn't you have one of each? Continental and Lycoming. Now that would be unique.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Nice summary. Now, how the frick am I supposed to remember that the next time someone brings up how the springs dampen the feel....

Tim

Save a link to this thread or take a screen shot. I save lots of references to help me learn and retain information

 

[Zeldman]

The "kidding" part was a dig at yet another acronym being trotted out that the trotter assumes everyone knows. It happens here a lot.

Here ya go.... but not sure how they fly.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TKS

 

[MIFlyer]

Yabut if it had a second engine, it would be a Continental too.

you got me Jeff!

 

[CC268]

Or an Aerostar, or Cessna 337, or Beech Bonanza V-Tail......

Tim

Serious question cause I’ve never flown a V Tail, but my dad and I have been looking at them a bit. Do they have bad tendencies or something?

 

[Pilawt]

Serious question cause I’ve never flown a V Tail, but my dad and I have been looking at them a bit. Do they have bad tendencies or something?

In the minds of some.

Anyone considering owning or flying any Bonanza should read Flying The Beech Bonanza by John C. Eckalbar, an excellent analysis of the handling and performance characteristics of the entire Bonanza line. It will answer your question.

 

[CC268]

In the minds of some.

Anyone considering owning or flying any Bonanza should read Flying The Beech Bonanza by John C. Eckalbar, an excellent analysis of the handling and performance characteristics of the entire Bonanza line. It will answer your question.

Interesting. I’m not much of a reader (although I like audio books), but I’ll keep this in mind for the future.

 

[hindsight2020]

Serious question cause I’ve never flown a V Tail, but my dad and I have been looking at them a bit. Do they have bad tendencies or something?

No, they just tail wag like nobody's business (enough to get pedestrians sick in the back, and owners admit to resting feet on pedals all flight to ameliorate the issue) and they run out of rear CG (Bo's have tanks forward of the front seats, as opposed to behind like most Cessnas and Pipers) pretty quick for rear-pax centric missions (aka family XC et al). Neither are nonstarters for all, but they are to some, myself included. Magnesium is also a no-thanks for me, but others have no aversion to owning it long term. So a "other than the shooting, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" type of thing, like most spam cans.

 

[tspear]

Serious question cause I’ve never flown a V Tail, but my dad and I have been looking at them a bit. Do they have bad tendencies or something?

Like most planes they have quirks which are generic to the general Bonanza and some that are specific to the model.
The book which was suggested is likely one of the better sources to learn the quirks. There is also a type club you should look for training. Lastly consider joining BeechTalk, they have enough knowledge on there to warn you what are the quirks of the design.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Pilawt]

No, they just tail wag like nobody's business (enough to get pedestrians sick in the back, and owners admit to resting feet on pedals all flight to ameliorate the issue)

Yeah ... but no worse than a T-tail Arrow, IMHO.

and they run out of rear CG (Bo's have tanks forward of the front seats, as opposed to behind like most Cessnas and Pipers) pretty quick for rear-pax centric missions (aka family XC et al).

That is true more so with the later (1961 N35 and later) models, which have higher gross weights and all 85 gallons of fuel in narrow tanks nestled in the wing leading edges. My '59 K35 had 20 of its 63 gallon usable capacity in aux tanks further back in the wings, so it wasn't as extreme.

The V-tail Bonanza was originally designed for a 2550 pound MGW. The last V35B models had a gross weight of 3400 lb. As they kept increasing allowable gross weight, the top of the allowable range on the loading graph got narrower.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yeah ... but no worse than a T-tail Arrow, IMHO.

Interesting. I've never heard of t arrow owners profer having to rest on the pedals to correct constant tail wagging. Frankly this is the first time I've heard of any piper t tail be compared with a v tail in this regard.

 

[mtnflyr]

This thread is mildly infuriating.

Adapt or die. Sorry old timers. But the new generation is here. We dont want to fly airplanes built 50 years ago. We dont want to buy from a company that builds less than 20 airplanes a year.

We want new designs, advanced avionics, reliability, and safety. We understand those "dang iphones". Btw the call button is on the bottom left.

 

[denverpilot]

This thread is mildly infuriating.

Adapt or die. Sorry old timers. But the new generation is here. We dont want to fly airplanes built 50 years ago. We dont want to buy from a company that builds less than 20 airplanes a year.

We want new designs, advanced avionics, reliability, and safety. We understand those "dang iphones". Btw the call button is on the bottom left.

LOL. Why?

I don’t know any old timers who won’t happily fly in or especially teach in your fancy new airplane.

As long as someone else is paying the half a million bucks or more for them, not a problem.

If y’all have the bucks for all that stuff, you won’t find any lack of instructors who’ll happily give you a workout in them.

Probably start with covering up the advanced avionics and failing the AP, to see how well you hand fly the thing...

 

[PaulS]

LOL. Why?

I don’t know any old timers who won’t happily fly in or especially teach in your fancy new airplane.

As long as someone else is paying the half a million bucks or more for them, not a problem.

If y’all have the bucks for all that stuff, you won’t find any lack of instructors who’ll happily give you a workout in them.

Probably start with covering up the advanced avionics and failing the AP, to see how well you hand fly the thing...

That's pretty much how it works for me, and I think I'm an old timer too .

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

LOL. Why?

I don’t know any old timers who won’t happily fly in or especially teach in your fancy new airplane.

As long as someone else is paying the half a million bucks or more for them, not a problem.

If y’all have the bucks for all that stuff, you won’t find any lack of instructors who’ll happily give you a workout in them.

Probably start with covering up the advanced avionics and failing the AP, to see how well you hand fly the thing...

Fail the AP?.....

 

[EdFred]

This thread is mildly infuriating.

Adapt or die. Sorry old timers. But the new generation is here. We dont want to fly airplanes built 50 years ago. We dont want to buy from a company that builds less than 20 airplanes a year.

We want new designs, advanced avionics, reliability, and safety. We understand those "dang iphones". Btw the call button is on the bottom left.

Go take your ritalin and get back to playing video games in your mom's basement.

I mean since we are broadbrushing and everything.

 

[Rockymountain]

Kind of like trying to do steep turns in the Malibu and the autopilot kicks in automatically and tries to level the wings.

You can turn off the ESP before doing steep turns, or either hold down the CWS or AP button while doing steep turns and the autopilot will not engage. Just remember to turn the ESP back on if you want that protection. Otherwise it will turn back on automatically at next restart. This is from the manual of an M500, but the M350/Mirage should be the same.