Another Chute Pull Saves The Day

Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are 100% effective.

Yeah, that very situation makes me tend to want to pull high and then glide it in to the best place I can in the event of a deployment failure. Chute best option, glide to field/road next best option (if airport not in range)
 
I'd pull chute without hesitation. Even when a runway is within glide distance I still might come up short 1 or 2 out of 10 times (especially in a high stress environment). I'd much rather pull the chute and make it 10 out of 10 over a field.

Or, you could just practice again and again until you can do it 10 out of 10 times!
 
Or, you could just practice again and again until you can do it 10 out of 10 times!

For me it's all about increasing my odds of survival. I will most certainly be training and practicing as much as possible because the chute is only safely viable above 500' AGL.
No matter how much I practice or train, with lizard brain setting in during an emergency, I feel my greatest chance of survival is to pull the chute. Especially if it's going to be an off airport landing. I'm not going to roll the dice purely so the insurance company can potentially save money on an airplane repair.
I'm not certain of this, but I have "heard" (has to be true then) that the insurance companies prefer that we pull the chute due to the decreased potential of death. Much cheaper to order a new bird versus pay out death benefits.
 
For me it's all about increasing my odds of survival. I will most certainly be training and practicing as much as possible because the chute is only safely viable above 500' AGL.
No matter how much I practice or train, with lizard brain setting in during an emergency, I feel my greatest chance of survival is to pull the chute. Especially if it's going to be an off airport landing. I'm not going to roll the dice purely so the insurance company can potentially save money on an airplane repair.
I'm not certain of this, but I have "heard" (has to be true then) that the insurance companies prefer that we pull the chute due to the decreased potential of death. Much cheaper to order a new bird versus pay out death benefits.
Correct - several major Cirrus underwriters have gone on record that they would waive one's deductible in the case of a CAPS pull. They'd rather see you live and pay out for the plane than have a customer die for a variety of reasons (some financial but I tend to believe that they genuinely, just like us, would much prefer to see a fellow pilot alive and well and with his/her family than in a casket).
 
How do you practice a real-life high stress environment 10 times?
You can't... But you can keep practicing under simulated conditions. If you practice enough your confidence level, and skill level, should be pretty darn high.
 
Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are not 100% effective.

True. It was a rare situation. The NTSA found that the plane was changing attitude, and rolling rapidly, when the chute was pulled due to pilot disorientation.

The rocket needs to pull the chute straight out of the fuselage, and normally it does this very well, but in this case it couldn't because of the rapid roll -- the rocket was going in one direction but a fraction of a second later when it tugged on the chute the chute needed to be tugged in a different direction. So the chute deployment failed. Amazingly the pilot regained control, and landed on a runway, with the chute still in the fuselage and the rocket dangling behind the plane.

So is this a reason to bash chutes? No. Pilot disorientation is actually a very compelling reason for a chute, as there are few alternatives. "Just put it down in a field" isn't an alternative if you are disoriented. In this worst-case scenario, pulling the chute was still the best option available.
 
Any preliminary report or word yet?
 
The recent ones are more related to the pilot forgetting to switch tanks and running one tank out versus running it completely dry.
I really wish the FAA would allow a "both" setting on the low wings. They require the tank switch for "safety", but multiple planes have crashed due to pilots forgetting to switch. :confused:

It ain't the FAA, it's physics. Low wing planes can't feed fuel through gravity,they must pump the fuel. Put the pump on "both," let one tank go empty before the other one, and the pump won't send any more fuel to the engine. Try this at lunch: get two straws. Put one in you drink, leave one out.mout both in your mouth and try to drink. All you're gonna get is air . . .

"FAA allow a Both setting on low wing planes . . . " Sorry, dude, it ain't your day.
 
For me it's all about increasing my odds of survival. I will most certainly be training and practicing as much as possible because the chute is only safely viable above 500' AGL.
No matter how much I practice or train, with lizard brain setting in during an emergency, I feel my greatest chance of survival is to pull the chute. Especially if it's going to be an off airport landing. I'm not going to roll the dice purely so the insurance company can potentially save money on an airplane repair.
I'm not certain of this, but I have "heard" (has to be true then) that the insurance companies prefer that we pull the chute due to the decreased potential of death. Much cheaper to order a new bird versus pay out death benefits.

The off-airport landing rarely saves money for the insurance company. If I ever strike the prop, they will probably total my plane, especially if it's gear up with sheet metal damage. The key is walking away from it.

If having a chute "permits" you to make a particular flight that you would not attempt in a plane without a chute, you should rethink your strategy and find a mentor for Aeronautical Decision Making."

It's like deciding you can drive the speed limit on the interstate in the snow because you have 4-wheel drive, traction control and ABS brakes. Sure,they will help some, but nothing gives traction on ice. I've seen many 4WD vehicles in ditches when I lived in Ohio. I've also sen some GA planes in the trees, totaled with only minor injuries to occupants. Never load eyes on a deployed airframe chute.

Oh no, the engine died but the gas gage doesn't say Empty. Pull the chute! Float down gently with all that fuel in the other tank. Land on my roof because that's where the wind blew you to, you'll not have a no-injury landing if I'm home.
 
It ain't the FAA, it's physics. Low wing planes can't feed fuel through gravity,they must pump the fuel. Put the pump on "both," let one tank go empty before the other one, and the pump won't send any more fuel to the engine. Try this at lunch: get two straws. Put one in you drink, leave one out.mout both in your mouth and try to drink. All you're gonna get is air . . .

"FAA allow a Both setting on low wing planes . . . " Sorry, dude, it ain't your day.




Why couldn't both tanks gravity feed to a lower central tank and have the fuel pump pull from there?
 
They'd rather see you live and pay out for the plane than have a customer die for a variety of reasons (some financial but I tend to believe that they genuinely, just like us, would much prefer to see a fellow pilot alive and well and with his/her family than in a casket).

Dead people tend not to be repeat customers. I haven't seen a dead person renew their insurance yet.
 
Why couldn't both tanks gravity feed to a lower central tank and have the fuel pump pull from there?
Fuel pressure to the lower tank depends on the relative height of the fuel tanks and the central tanks. Tough to get the central tank really low, in a low-winged plane.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Dead people tend not to be repeat customers. I haven't seen a dead person renew their insurance yet.
Tanks are inboard in the wings to minimize out of balance conditions if both tanks aren't the same (like during XC flights). They are full thickness on the wings, there may be another inch or two worth of drop to the bottom of the belly, certainly no more. That won't push much gas . . . It works in high wing planes because there's a significant height from the bottom of the wing to the carburetor
 
It ain't the FAA, it's physics. Low wing planes can't feed fuel through gravity,they must pump the fuel. Put the pump on "both," let one tank go empty before the other one, and the pump won't send any more fuel to the engine. Try this at lunch: get two straws. Put one in you drink, leave one out.mout both in your mouth and try to drink. All you're gonna get is air . . .

"FAA allow a Both setting on low wing planes . . . " Sorry, dude, it ain't your day.
They could if they pressurized the fuel tanks or put a fuel pump in the fuel tank like they do on cars.
 
Cars only have one tank.
They could if they pressurized the fuel tanks or put a fuel pump in the fuel tank like they do on cars.
Cars only have one tank. Which fuel,pump are you going to run? Now instead of selecting the wrong tank, you'll just select the wrong fuel pump.
 
The Tex II I used to instruct in had a single engine turbine and low wing tanks. They used a combination of jet pumps and motive flow lines in order to pressurize the collector tank and have the venturi effect of the jet pumps keep the collector tank fed and pressurized, with a computer controlled transfer valves (user controllable in manual as well) in order to auto-balance the wing fuels by selectively cutting off the motive flow (thence the venturi effect) to the light tank until the wings balanced within 20 pounds, then the valve would restore motive flow to the light tank and things would flow equally to the collector tank again.

The pressurization needed to drive the venturi effect ultimately came from the low-pressure engine driven pump and the electric boost pump in the collector tank (as a standby to the engine driven) as a source of pressurization for that maze of motive flow lines to work. The collector tank had to be pressurized in order for the high-pressure engine pump feeding that 1100SHP PT-6 not to vaporize the fuel with such vaccuum demand.

That's one way you get around the "boost pump system" in the wings, which does require either a computer or human input in order to turn off one wing pump selectively in order to not cavitate the system during one wing empty scenario with both wing pumps on, which is the outcome HankS was alluding to with the straws sucking into the same mouth but one straw sucking air.

Most motive flow/jet pump/collector tank arrangements are mostly seen in turboprop/turbine applications with high pressure engine pumps, low pressure engine pumps and electric boost pump setups running the show; I'm not quite sure if there are economics at play for opting not to fit low wing single engine piston airplanes with motive flow systems. I guess they'd figure it's cheaper just to have dumbo in the front switch tanks and do his job of not cavitating a tank at low altitude with insufficient time to re-feed the lines with the other tank. If Cirrus is asking that much money for their glass bathtub, I figure a motive flow setup to support an ON switch (effectively full-time auto-balancing BOTH switch like the Tex II) would probably be a nice gee whiz that their customers would be glad to pay a premium for. I bet you the Cirrus jet has just such a system as I've described.
 
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The newer Cirri give you a CAS message if you forget to switch tanks. You'd have to lose an unbelievable amount of situational awareness to forget to switch tanks and then ignore the CAS message. The low-wing Meridian I fly self balances but it's a much more complex system.

There is now enough data to show beyond any doubt that your chances of survival and no or reduced injury are much better pulling the chute in a Cirrus than trying to land on anything other than a runway. You may believe that every Cirrus pilot sucks and your superior skills will save the day, but not me. Also, it somewhat depends on the Cirrus. My SRT22T with it's huge composite prop had a horrible glide ratio and wouldn't make the runway from anywhere farther way than the end of the downwind.
 
Two more pluses for my plane: chrome molybdenum steel cage around the cockpit to protect me, and a 12.3:1 glide radio with the prop windmilling!
 
Cars only have one tank.

Cars only have one tank. Which fuel,pump are you going to run? Now instead of selecting the wrong tank, you'll just select the wrong fuel pump.
Both, they run on demand, simply maintain fuel pressure, pretty common for fuel injected engines.
 
The newer Cirri give you a CAS message if you forget to switch tanks. You'd have to lose an unbelievable amount of situational awareness to forget to switch tanks and then ignore the CAS message. The low-wing Meridian I fly self balances but it's a much more complex system.

There is now enough data to show beyond any doubt that your chances of survival and no or reduced injury are much better pulling the chute in a Cirrus than trying to land on anything other than a runway. You may believe that every Cirrus pilot sucks and your superior skills will save the day, but not me. Also, it somewhat depends on the Cirrus. My SRT22T with it's huge composite prop had a horrible glide ratio and wouldn't make the runway from anywhere farther way than the end of the downwind.
Yea the composite big bladed prop is like a giant speed brake. I was able to slow the 22 down from 160 to 80 on about a 1 mile final.
 
Let's see .. life or maybe buildings, trees, potholes and possibly fiery death .. I think I'll choose life. ☺

See how things look and if she's flyable try to glide in to a nearest airport if I'm lucky but if it looks like doodoo ... let 'er rip!
 
I am completely pro chute pull. If anyone doubts the pilot for not being able to make an airport, blame the FAA for not making that a PTS standard for all flight conditions.
Oh, I forgot... Everyone here wants ZERO regulation. I assume this also pertains to licensing requirements.
 
Oh, I forgot... Everyone here wants ZERO regulation. I assume this also pertains to licensing requirements.

No, you've just decided to go all drama queen about one person's question in one thread. ;)

I see no empirical evidence that *everyone* here wants *zero* regulations. Haha.

Easy killer. Easy. :)
 
Cirrus pilots, help me with this honest question. Vs0 is 60 knots, ish? If I need to put my bugsmasher down in a congested area with no options, I'm probably going to wish I had a chute. But otherwise, If you've got the choice of a road or a field to land rather than pull, you do that, right?

No, from an SR22 owner. Survivability with chute = 100% (<133 knots, >500 feet AGL). Survivability on road? Might kill an innocent driver or family or hit power lines. Field? Is it soft? Who knows? Will I know before getting below 500'? Why chance it?

Do I fly missions with a chute I wouldn't fly otherwise? Yes! I wouldn't fly without one, because I fly over So Cal, where much of the time landing options are 1) freeway, 2) houses, 3) water, 4) mountains.

Does that mean I'm careless? No. My minimums are probably stricter than 98% of other pilots. Call me a woos. My family loves me and I love my family...and my life.
 
Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are not 100% effective.
This has happened once in just under 150 deployments in Cirrus, low enough that it's not relevant.
 
Anybody know about another one going down today? I just landed and one of the ramp guys said a cirrus had just gone down around here somewhere about an hour ago and they were fatalities.
 
If having a chute "permits" you to make a particular flight that you would not attempt in a plane without a chute, you should rethink your strategy and find a mentor for Aeronautical Decision Making."

I don't need an ADM mentor, Hank. 100% of my flights fall into this category...no parachute, no go, including Winds Calm, Skies Clear.

GA is very risky, even for the best pilots. As recent Cirrus stats show, having a chute results in some of the best safety stats in the industry. Count me in, using ADM, for 100% of my flights.
 
Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are not 100% effective.

Nothing in the entire world is 100% effective. Love it or hate it, the statistics seem to indicate that better outcomes are achieved when the plane has a chute.

My guess is that these will become more common in new designs. If I ever hit the lottery and can afford to buy a brand spanking new plane, then a chute would at least be one of the factors I would weigh. It would not be a absolutely must have, but it would be a factor.
 
Thanks gang - I wasn't trying to flame, it was an honest question re: pulling. I've seen the chute landing stats now, and they're impressive.
 
Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are not 100% effective.

Nothing is 100% effective !

Cheers
 
Nothing is 100% effective !

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True, but how many of the "saves" are actually a save, and if the pilot continue on could have safely landed?
How do you score it? If there are ten chute pulls that resulted in live pilots, and three of the ten would have died if they'd attempted to land, is that an argument for or against the chute? What if two pilots would have died? What if six would have? In other words, how many people have to NOT die to make the chute worthwhile?

Ron Wanttaja
 
True, but how many of the "saves" are actually a save, and if the pilot continue on could have safely landed?

It truthfully boils down to managing the odds in your favor as much as possible. Even without a chute, a pilot has to quickly make an assessment and take the course of least statistical probability that will lead to injury or death. With a Cirrus, you have all the options than any GA pilot has in addition to a parachute that you can weigh. If you have an engine out emergency at 7k AGL and you're only 4 miles from a runway and don't have any panic going on, by all means an airport landing is a high percentage option. However, there are still risks because you could mis-judge your turn to base and come up short. There was a Cirrus fatal that was exactly that scenario. He misjudged his base turn and went out too far and came up short on a "high percentage" landing. Had he pulled the chute he almost certainly would have survived.
Now in contrast, the Cirrus chute has been 100% effective when deployed inside it's performance envelope and sometimes effective when pulled well outside that envelope. So, statistically speaking no matter if you're directly over the airport your odds of survival are better pulling the chute, so it really boils down to accepting lower odds of survival for the purpose of potentially saving the insurance company money.

I wholeheartedly agree that the percentage skew is maybe from 99% to 100% when it comes to dead sticking into an airport vs. pulling the chute, but I'm still going with the better odds myself. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who decides to glide one in and many people choose that route, even in a Cirrus.
Now when it comes to an off airport landing, the percentage skew is far greater because a Cirrus with it's little wheels and cute wheel pants are not the best at landing on soft surfaces. The plane will likely be totaled anyways so you're not even saving the insurance company any money. So with an off airport landing scenario, it's a no brainer to pull the chute at 2000' AGL over a nice open field. We all know there are lots of fatalities that have resulted from off airport landings that went south.

No matter what, be safe and know your options with the equipment you're flying.
 
Chutes sometimes fail to deploy, there was a case this happen and the guy ended up landing after a failed deployment, chutes are not 100% effective.

So far in the Cirrus CAPS history I'm not aware of any that have failed that were deployed within the performance window. The one I believe you're referring to is N715CD which was pulled at an apparent tumbling attitude in heavy IMC. The rocket hit the horizontal stab and wasn't able to extract the chute. The pilot was able to recover and land safely (he still had an engine).
If you're under full control and gliding, you can easily slow the plane, maneuver over an open field and deploy safely flat and level at 2k feet AGL. If it doesn't go off for some reason, then by all means your next best option is to land on a flat and level surface somewhere like everyone else in GA.

I'm not trying to pick a fight on any of this, so please don't misinterpret anything I'm saying. If I didn't have a chute, by all means I'm doing everything I can to improve my odds of survival in every situation. With a Cirrus, I'm doing the exact same thing and the data supports CAPS as a better odds solution versus the people that have tried making the airport.

Stories like this one are why CAPS is higher on my priority list than trying to make an airport in a plane that has a big Hartzell speed brake on the front of it. http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2011/04/cirrus-sr22-n224gs-ntsb-repair-error.html

I'll also qualify that I'm an extremely low time student pilot right now. The odds of me making a glide 10 feet are pretty low at this point. If I'm solo and practicing touch and goes or doing a cross country there's no question CAPS is very early on my emergency check list. When I get many hundreds of hours under my belt I will absolutely re-assess my percentages and may come up with minimums of distance to altitude that I will be perfectly comfortable making an airport.

Fly safe.
 
Thats weird, when I responded to a post it took me to page one and showed my comment at the bottom. I thought the teejayevans comment was a new one. oops
 
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