ANOTHER: “What the right plane for my mission“ thread

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
I think I’m back in the market. We sold our share of a really nice 4-place Skyhawk SP when baby #3 was coming along; we’re now a family of 5.1 My mom lives with us 3days/wk until her retirement in 2022, when she comes with us full-time. Mom is healthy and led a very active life, only slowing down due to the Global pandemic dampening her group social activities.


When we had the Skyhawk, I flew mostly solo local XC to maintain proficiency day and night. We were also traveling as a family often enough to make things worthwhile a few times a year. Those 1-hr family flights to in-laws were invaluable for my experience and confidence level. We got a lot of utility out of the plane until it became a burden to go flying after work or between other responsibilities.


I thought about getting a 2-seater. My soon to be 8-yo middle child says he wants to learn to fly. This gave me the thought of getting my CFI and getting him enough time and experience along the way with that. I think an inexpensive airplane based close by will help me maintain basic proficiency and keep the money off my mind. We’ve been working hard on our financial picture and we’re at our next milestone in 5-months. At a meager one - two thousand a year it would be low-guilt. We expect to be in good financial shape right around the time mom retires.


OTOH, I like traveling with my family and a 6-seater will allow me to take the whole family, PLUS there are a couple guys at the airport that could probably go in with me. I would be comfortable doing a leaseback if the shared ownership arrangement doesn’t work, so that I could maintain control to keep the airplane in condition to always meet my standards. I like the looks and idea of a 36Series Bonanza, but it’s probably too much plane for my aviation experience level - insurance and maintenance would eat my lunch. I could also do a Cherokee 6. I used to have my heart set on a 5-seat Cirrus before we made the deal with my mom (my idea). I’m also concerned about the purchase price for any of these multiple 6-figure airplanes, considering we’re moving and building a new house after my mom retires.


So, I’m thinking get a 2-seater and sell in 2 years.


I could also see: Cherokee 140+, Mooney M20J, C-182, Grumman Tiger or a Vans, any of which might have a bit more permanence with the unknowns of family travel plans.


Looking for better ideas. The in/out of a buy/sell is uncomfortably speculative and as I understand the market is doing some interesting! things now.


My aviation experience: I have about 150 hours spread out over 11 years. No IR, but I have plans to finish it by 2022. I have a calculated-risk personality type.

edit: how do I fix the thread title???
 
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I got a 2 seater and try to fly with my 8yo every weekend I can. It's been perfect for that.

I had access to a great 182 but only ended up flying it a couple of times a year since I bought. How many times did I fill all four seats in the Skylane in five years? Twice, and both were local flights.

The acquisition price difference between a 2 seater and a 4 seater, in retrospect, is not much. I periodically come back to thinking about a Cherokee 180D or M20C.
 
Find something fun to fly with your 8 yo. I think @GeorgeC has the right idea - a nice simple, economical and fun to fly Cessna 140. :thumbsup:

There' all sorts of small, economical planes out there, including a whole series of Pipers (Pacers, Colts, etc) that won't break the bank.
 
206 seats 6? I flew one snd liked it but settled on a SR22T as it was better for my mission
 
Wow! Very few solid nominations on models to consider.
 
You had the perfect plane, a C172, for utility, instruction, holding its value, maintenance, etc. I doubt any plane would be better until your ready to spend the big $$$$$$.
 
Not many to chose from in the 6 seat range and even fewer in the 2 seat market unless you want to go the Classic TD route.
 
Partnership, yes, with the right partners. Leaseback, no.
 
n2230b said:
Seneca II
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Not unless your six people are small. I've had to leave fuel behind with three aboard on a Seneca II. Granted, it had the long range fuel system but we'd have been right at MGW with the standard system topped off.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I thought about getting a 2-seater. My soon to be 8-yo middle child says he wants to learn to fly. This gave me the thought of getting my CFI and getting him enough time and experience along the way with that. I think an inexpensive airplane based close by will help me maintain basic proficiency and keep the money off my mind.

OTOH, I like traveling with my family and a 6-seater will allow me to take the whole family, PLUS there are a couple guys at the airport that could probably go in with me. I would be comfortable doing a leaseback if the shared ownership arrangement doesn’t work, so that I could maintain control to keep the airplane in condition to always meet my standards. I like the looks and idea of a 36Series Bonanza, but it’s probably too much plane for my aviation experience level - insurance and maintenance would eat my lunch. I could also do a Cherokee 6. I used to have my heart set on a 5-seat Cirrus before we made the deal with my mom (my idea). I’m also concerned about the purchase price for any of these multiple 6-figure airplanes, considering we’re moving and building a new house after my mom retires.

So, I’m thinking get a 2-seater and sell in 2 years.

I could also see: Cherokee 140+, Mooney M20J, C-182, Grumman Tiger or a Vans, any of which might have a bit more permanence with the unknowns of family travel plans.

Looking for better ideas. The in/out of a buy/sell is uncomfortably speculative and as I understand the market is doing some interesting! things now.

My aviation experience: I have about 150 hours spread out over 11 years. No IR, but I have plans to finish it by 2022. I have a calculated-risk personality type.
Click to expand...

I think your thoughts so far are sound and you've identified some good airplanes.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation with fewer people, but a kid who's nuts about airplanes. I hope that's still the case when he's in his teens and we can start him on gliders and then move into airplanes.

I'm thinking that you could start by getting a cheap, simple 2-4 seater, use it for your own instrument (and commercial/CFI) training, proficiency flying, and poking holes in the sky with your son... And his training, when the time comes. Then, when you're ready from both a financial and an aviation perspective, get into a partnership on a 6-seater. If needed, it could even be based farther away - When it's time to fly a trip, having it a little farther away wouldn't make a big difference in overall time, and you could even take the other plane to go pick it up if that worked.

For the cheap/simple end, a Cessna, PA28 variant, or Grumman AA-1 or AA-5 series would work well. You could also look at something with a tailwheel if you're interested in that - I'm kinda thinking I'd like to get something like a Citabria eventually for the fun plane/train-the-kid role, and that'll let me turn it upside down sometimes as well (more fun!).

For the 6-seater, depending on budget and available partners, A36, PA32R, or PA32 are all good options.

As much as I love to recommend 182s to first-time buyers, it seems like you have two missions here, and the 182 serves none of them. It's more plane than you need to poke holes in the sky, but less plane than you need to take your whole family somewhere.
 
I'm imagining myself downgrading (or upgrading, depending on your POV) from my current fully-equipped, IFR-capable PA-28-161 to a fun little VFR-only two-seat taildragger when I've put on another decade or two.

If that's not the way you're heading, though, maybe look at the PA-28-180 as well as the -140. The 180 is still much less expensive than a Skyhawk, but with better load and comparable speed, and a very-stable IFR platform. IMO, they're the best deal on the market right now for a basic utility airplane that you'll fly alone most of the time, but might want to take a couple of friends along in on rare occasions, and still they're dirt-cheap to maintain (every shop knows how to work on them).
 
Take a look at the Grumman 4 seat airplanes. Have “the conversation” with the wife and yourself. How many long flights are you really going to take as a family? I own a Tiger, and every time I go through this discussion, I end up with the perfect airplane, the Tiger for my flying. Mostly myself and one other, weekend flying, and occasionally a longer XC. If your wife and family are really into GA travel, then perhaps, but if not more than a couple of times a year, be careful buying something more than you really need.
 
I've never seen a 6 seat airplane do well in a leaseback. Maybe yours will be the exception, but I'll be surprised.
 
Unlike many, I would definitely entertain doing a leaseback. But the key to being successful with a leaseback is understanding what plane your local customer base wants/needs in greater numbers than your local market can currently fill.

For most markets that means you're looking for a well equipped (i.e. G5(s)/IFR GPS/ADSB not just out but also in) C150 or C172 or PA128-160/180. Get one of those and put it on leaseback and you'll probably do ok. A 6-place? I just don't see it doing well on leaseback.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My aviation experience: I have about 150 hours spread out over 11 years. No IR, but I have plans to finish it by 2022. I have a calculated-risk personality type.
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M2C Fly a bit more to get a better idea of what plane would be good. For the next couple of years just rent. For example, after finishing your IR you will have a better idea of what nav equipment a plane will need. After a few years back in the saddle, you'll have a better feel for what type of flying you'll actually be doing.
 
I'm wired to provide only cynical responses, so please forgive my responses as someone who has gone through this mental exercise
Jaybird180 said:
OTOH, I like traveling with my family and a 6-seater will allow me to take the whole family, PLUS there are a couple guys at the airport that could probably go in with me.
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You need to work this part out. You stated early in your post that pretty much all your flying is solo. Unless you mean "solo, but with an upright piano" you don't have much use for a six seat airplane. It is a really nice visual to imagine yourself flying your family to granny's house for the holidays but even with an instrument rating this fictional trip will get scrubbed more often than it's a go.
If you really, really want to have access to a six seater plane (and who doesn't), then find that partnership or club. And buy a two seat plane for yourself.
Jaybird180 said:
I would be comfortable doing a leaseback if the shared ownership arrangement doesn’t work, so that I could maintain control to keep the airplane in condition to always meet my standards.
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No. No, you would not. People continue to have no understanding of what a leaseback means to the owner. By definition you will not have control other than the ability to pull the plug on the leaseback arrangement.

Here's what a leaseback does not mean:
You can fly the plane when you want
That your smiling face will be welcome at the FBO where you'll ***** about gum wrappers in the back seat or the way the plane is tied down.
That the lease will be written in a way that makes you any money

An aircraft on leaseback is the same as you owning a shipping container, a coke machine or a deep fryer at McDonald's. It is a business asset and there is math/money involved - and nothing more. There is absolutely no room for emotion or pride of ownership.

A better example: Let's say you buy a house as an investment and you put a renter in it. Are you able to stop by when you're in the neighborhood and ask to use the bathroom? How about asking the family to kick rocks for the weekend so your friends can stay while they're in town? Look around inside and maybe make some comments on cleanliness, or how the yard isn't being kept up to your standards? No, you aren't. The lease contains some wording about the expected condition but unless they're running a meth lab you pretty much need to STFU and wait until the lease is up. Then you'll have the same experience with the next renter.

By definition a lease puts the keys and complete day to day control in the hands of the entity who signs the lease. Ever leased a car? Did Toyota/Honda/Mercedes drop by during the lease and check that the car is being taken care of? No. It's "your" car and normal wear and tear is expected.

Also by definition (the legal one), you have no priority for access to "your" plane. You can schedule to rent it like anyone else and you can pay full retail like anyone else. Oh sure there are some owners that have a wink-wink handshake deal to use the plane, but a paying renter/student will bump you every time.

I have a good friend who owned an FBO and had some planes on lease. He explained the math to me one day. Your plane goes on the line with the others and rents for the same amount as the like aircraft do. As the owner you get 100% of the money (sounds great so far, right?) - minus fuel, oil and maintenance costs. If the FBO has a maintenance shop they will not be cutting you a deal, but your plane will get priority to get fixed and back on the line. So you're paying for every annual, every 100 hour inspection and any unscheduled maintenance.

For a popular aircraft like a C172 it may generate some serious cash in the busy season and (around here anyway) lose money in the winter when the weather isn't great. For a plane like an Arrow or a Cherokee 6, it won't be flying much and will never make money.

Last year I was in a position that I could have wormed my way into owning a small flight school. I asked my friend who previously owned a different FBO for his thoughts. He hesitated for a moment and I thought he was going to say "well, if you do it carefully..." but he said "I would NEVER in a million years own another flight school". He said on a typical day it's possible to walk the balance between profits and keeping the place going. It is unscheduled maintenance that is the deal breaker. Metal found during an oil change, a prop strike or some dork puts a plane down on a busy street when he ran out of gas. As the leaseback victim, er, owner you are on the hook for those expenses.

Another anecdotal story: My first gig as a CFI was at a very busy flying club. Man we had lots of planes! For a long time I wasn't sure which were owned by the flight school and which were on lease. Later I would learn that the crook who owned the place was known for structuring deals to screw the owners with huge repair bills - and then taking them to court over them and ultimately end up owing the planes as "compensation".

Back to the plane you need. Buy a two place plane that is fun and that you can afford by yourself. Three years now with my Citabria and I'm happy as a pig in s***.
 
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