Annual on plane missing logbooks

[Bell206]

many records never existed,

One more lap around the pattern...

Doesn't matter. In order to operate an aircraft today, per Part 91.417 the owner must maintain aircraft total time in service. Period. If the owner does not have aircraft time records back to day of the original AWC issuance, the FAA has provided relief from the 91.417 "total" requirement via AC 43-9 which requires the owner to pony up and make a log entry explaining the non-existent or missing records and enter a new estimated total time in service.

And while you never believe FAA guidance to be factual, this is one of the easiest/simplest forms of guidance I've come across that corrects an aircraft regulatory issue, without FAA approval, with a simple logbook entry by a potentially non-certified individual. If only the rest of the FARs could be dealt with as easily.

 

[bluerooster]

Have assisted in rebuilding a number of aircraft records. Never had one we couldn't complete per the AC. Even several with zero logbooks. Determining TTIS is the easiest part, rebuilding the AD list or status of life-limited parts is the hardest and most expensive part.

How to determine TTIS? When there is not a starting point?

 

[bluerooster]

I guess the key word is "estimated". So my 1932 Eaglerock Longwing, with zero records, will be about 50 hours TTIS, because I'm certian that the OX-5 has been overhauled at least once before?

 

[Bell206]

How to determine TTIS? When there is not a starting point?

A number of ways: registration records, insurance records, previous owner/pilot logbooks, bank records, FBO records, RS records, mechanic records, OEM records, NTSB records, tax records, divorce records, etc. It all depends on what you find and where it takes you.

If zero records available usually start with a full blown search of the records in Oak City by someone with internal access. This always provides a solid foundation to start from... or you find out the aircraft was lost at sea in the 50s which takes you down a different path. Once you develope an initial TTIS you can pull a serial number group of other aircraft built around the time of the target aircraft. You then search the registry for those aircraft and survey each current owner on their aircraft TTIS. The average end result is usually what the owner will use as his new TTIS.

So my 1932 Eaglerock Longwing, with zero records, will be about 50 hours TTIS,

I've never worked one that old, but have done several Stearmans from early 40s with success. However, if you have an actual flying certified Longwing I doubt anyone will question your TTIS of 50hrs.

The key to this is the write up you make in the logbook taking responsibility for the TTIS of 50 hrs. That's all the Feds want. And you can make that write up as basic or detailed as you want. But records traceability and TT does affect some aircraft values at sale time. The 1st things I verfied on a pre-buy was current TTIS, W&B record, and Equipment List.

With one of the Stearmans I mentioned, we went to the FSDO to get input as the owner wanted to get the TT as close as possible. With 4 ASIs in the office, one found an obscure FAA record from the 70s that got our estimated TT even closer. The owner included all the high points of the research in his logbook entry to include the ASI discovery. Afterwards he even took a pic with the ASIs and the aircraft which was included as part of the provenance record for the aircraft.

 

[JAWS]

A number of ways: registration records, insurance records, previous owner/pilot logbooks, bank records, FBO records, RS records, mechanic records, OEM records, NTSB records, tax records, divorce records, etc. It all depends on what you find and where it takes you.

If zero records available usually start with a full blown search of the records in Oak City by someone with internal access. This always provides a solid foundation to start from... or you find out the aircraft was lost at sea in the 50s which takes you down a different path. Once you develope an initial TTIS you can pull a serial number group of other aircraft built around the time of the target aircraft. You then search the registry for those aircraft and survey each current owner on their aircraft TTIS. The average end result is usually what the owner will use as his new TTIS.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Tom-D]

If zero records available usually start with a full blown search of the records in Oak City by someone with internal access. This always provides a solid foundation to start from... or you find out the aircraft was lost at sea in the 50s which takes you down a different path. Once you develope an initial TTIS you can pull a serial number group of other aircraft built around the time of the target aircraft. You then search the registry for those aircraft and survey each current owner on their aircraft TTIS. The average end result is usually what the owner will use as his new TTIS.

Which would be the biggest lie in the log. many of these old aircraft have been stored for years and wouldn't come close to the fleet average.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Which would be the biggest lie in the log. many of these old aircraft have been stored for years and wouldn't come close to the fleet average.