Annual inspections FAA disk, STCs, 337s, and engine changes???Oh My

[DFH65]

So I am going through the logs on a plane I am looking at.

Background:
1947 11CC
Rebuilt in 2005
A used engine C85-12F was put in place of the C85-8F that was in it.
There are two STCs mentioned in the log books that I can find anyway.
In the engine log book and entry in 1984 STC SA732GL which is for use of unleaded gas.
In the airplane log book there is an entry that states, Installed engine blah blah blah numbers "...engine was altered (per) STC# SA69S0 for C85-12F series engine less stater & generator"

I am no expert so how does this work? The FAA disk I have does not have a 337 for either of these STCs and I guess I wouldn't expect it to.

I would expect that these alterations were made while the engine was on one of the other planes this engine was in and therefore would be on that disk.

So if you are the A&P IA doing the inspection how do you reconcile this?

The unleaded fuel one is no big deal as you could just get a new one. The engine install on the other hand seems like a bigger deal.

ETA: There is an STC for the recover in 2005 and it is on the FAA disk.

 

[flyingron]

If an STC was applied, there should be a 337. However, a lot of times the FAA records don't get fully scanned on the CDROMs (I know this because I have one side of documents but not others for example).

SA69S0 is the Lasher STC for putting the -12F on the 11AC. You should have it in your aircraft paperwork. While the STC probably includes some alterations to the engine, it is the authority to install it on your airframe and hence you should have it if it was done properly. Of course, the mechanic who did this may have followed the STC but failed to actually have it filed as so modified with the FAA.

The other one is the EAA auto fuel STC. You can replace that for $127 from the EAA.

You can try the type club: www.aeronca.org for help.

 

[Bell206]

1947 11CC

Don't know Super Chiefs very well but another place to check is the Aeronca Service Letter listing. There were quite a few SLs that allowed upgrades from one model to another. Don't know if that included a -12F on a 11CC. In some cases, an OEM bulletin will allow the upgrade without the need of a 337. A better place to inquire would be at type Aeronca Club website.

 

[Tom-D]

It is quite simple, When you do not have the proper paper work to place the engine on your aircraft, you have the wrong engine installed.

You are going to be required to buy the STC, hopefully it is still being supported.

 

[Tom-D]

If an STC was applied, there should be a 337.

If he doesn't have the STC, or the 337, and the FAA doesn't either, guess what?
he has the wrong engine installed.
To fix that, he must buy the STC, and install it on a 337.
What was completed on his engine on another aircraft is irrelevant.
Engine upgrades are recorded on a 337 applied to an airframes not engines.

 

[Tom-D]

OBTW, is this aircraft in BLI?

 

[flyingron]

If he doesn't have the STC, or the 337, and the FAA doesn't either, guess what?
he has the wrong engine installed.
To fix that, he must buy the STC, and install it on a 337.
What was completed on his engine on another aircraft is irrelevant.
Engine upgrades are recorded on a 337 applied to an airframes not engines.

Agree 100%.

 

[flyingron]

Don't know Super Chiefs very well but another place to check is the Aeronca Service Letter listing. There were quite a few SLs that allowed upgrades from one model to another. Don't know if that included a -12F on a 11CC. In some cases, an OEM bulletin will allow the upgrade without the need of a 337. A better place to inquire would be at type Aeronca Club website.

Nope, there's no provision to upgrade to a -12 via the manufacturer. It takes an STC or a field approval (practically impossible to get these days).

 

[Tom-D]

(practically impossible to get these days).

When you do the request correctly, and provide the proper engineering data, you will get your field approval.

 

[flyingron]

Have you done so on an engine change, recently? There's official guidance that tells the inspectors pretty much not to do this.

 

[Tom-D]

Have you done so on an engine change, recently? There's official guidance that tells the inspectors pretty much not to do this.

show me

 

[DFH65]

Emailed the owner and told him about the issue. My email prompted him to dig a little deeper and he found another book with 337s and STCs and such. All laid out nice he said. So I am going to run over there tonight to go get it so I can see what he has.

What is the process if a 337 was done correctly but not on the FAA disk? Is this a big deal as long as all of the paperwork exists?

I will know more tonight.

 

[bnt83]

Emailed the owner and told him about the issue. My email prompted him to dig a little deeper and he found another book with 337s and STCs and such. All laid out nice he said. So I am going to run over there tonight to go get it so I can see what he has.

What is the process if a 337 was done correctly but not on the FAA disk? Is this a big deal as long as all of the paperwork exists?

I will know more tonight.

Send the FAA another copy.

 

[Tom-D]

My recommendation, if you buy this aircraft you subscribe to AD log, apply it properly, zerox all the STC, 337, you can find that pertain to the aircraft, and attach them to the miss, history section of the new log book.
This solves any confusion in the future.
We are not going to live for ever, and making life easier for those who follow is not a bad thing.

 

[DFH65]

Nope, there's no provision to upgrade to a -12 via the manufacturer. It takes an STC or a field approval (practically impossible to get these days).

Are engines with the same type certificate interchangeable? For example the same E233 type certificate covers both these engines.

Would a 337 be needed or can this be accomplished as a maintenance record since it is not a substantial alteration?

 

[flyingron]

Engines on the same type certificate are DEFINITELY NOT interchangeable. Even ones that are effectively the same model like an IO-550-B vs IO-550-R aren't.

Now sometimes the type certificate (or data from the manufacturer) allows engine substitution. For instance, just about every Navion out there can according to the TC have different engines (E-185, E-225, several of IO-470's, GO-435, and the IO-520-BB, if I'm remembering this right). If you comply with the manufacturer information, you can change these with just a log book entry. It's not a major modification.

Now when I put my IO-550-B on, I used a different mount that is not the way the manufacturer documents. I obtained an STC for the mount/engine combination. When installing an STC, you do need to submit the 337. Amusingly, I was told that the whole concept of an STC was due to the Navion. Early twin engine conversions were done with just instructions on how to do it.

Anyhow, as I said, the FAA CD (as with the microfiche before that) isn't foolproof. They miss things at time even if they DO have a copy. You can probably spend some time on the phone to confirm if it is there or not.

 

[Bell206]

Are engines with the same type certificate interchangeable?

The aircraft TC determines engine model installation. Unless the specific engine model is listed STC/337 required. The engine TC only covers the engine certification and not install authorization.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Are engines with the same type certificate interchangeable? For example the same E233 type certificate covers both these engines.

Would a 337 be needed or can this be accomplished as a maintenance record since it is not a substantial alteration?

It isn't the "engine" TC.....look on the airframe TC (TCDS). If the TCDS lists the configuration....it's approved and just a log book entry and W&B needs to be addressed.

 

[DFH65]

So I guess I am back at square one then.

I have the additional book in hand and it is very well done lots of details going all the way back. Some 337s all the AD compliance information but still not seeing the STC or a 337 for putting in the -12F.

What I do see is a reference to the engine TCDS. I may have to call the A&P who installed it tomorrow but I suspect that will do me no good.

This makes no sense to me as the engines are identical for the most part but that is the FAA I guess.

Just about the only difference is the -12f weighs 2 lbs more and uses different mags.

 

[mondtster]

It isn't the "engine" TC.....look on the airframe TC (TCDS). If the TCDS lists the configuration....it's approved and just a log book entry and W&B needs to be addressed.

So back to the engine TC... If both engine configurations are listed on the same engine TC could a mechanic reconfigure the engine in question to that of one that is approved on the airframe, then install it? What paperwork would someone need then?

I have a suspicion this is what happened...

 

[Bell206]

So back to the engine TC... If both engine configurations are listed on the same engine TC could a mechanic reconfigure the engine in question to that of one that is approved on the airframe, then install it?

Unless the engine manufacturer provided a document path like a bulletin to reconfigure and re-stamp the engine data plate to the proper model number then no. Only the OEM, STC, or FAA can authorize a data plate change.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Can you just not resubmit the old 337 paperwork to FAA now and set the file straight?

 

[mondtster]

Unless the engine manufacturer provided a document path like a bulletin to reconfigure and re-stamp the engine data plate to the proper model number then no. Only the OEM, STC, or FAA can authorize a data plate change.

I agree, it doesn’t stop people from doing odd things though.

I know Lycoming offers guidance on this but I’ve never looked at Continental.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

sure you don't have a C-90 vs a C-85?

 

[Tom-D]

So back to the engine TC... If both engine configurations are listed on the same engine TC could a mechanic reconfigure the engine in question to that of one that is approved on the airframe, then install it? What paperwork would someone need then?

I have a suspicion this is what happened...

What does the data tag say? is it a 12F ? or the OEM engine?

Some times an engine can be upgraded on the approved data in a service bulletin and that up grade would be logged in the engine maintenance.. but here is the kicker, the data tag is not changed. it will remain the same as the "not upgraded" engine

 

[mondtster]

What does the data tag say? is it a 12F ? or the OEM engine?

Some times an engine can be upgraded on the approved data in a service bulletin and that up grade would be logged in the engine maintenance.. but here is the kicker, the data tag is not changed. it will remain the same as the "not upgraded" engine

Exactly, which is what I suspect may have happened here.

I doubt anyone on this web board is going to be able to determine what the story is with this plane, without seeing the plane itself and its logbooks.

 

[DFH65]

Log book says exactly this: Work Performed: Intalled Continental C85-12, SN XXXX-12 in Aeronca 11CC, Reg. # XXXXX. Engine was altered (per) STC#SA69SO for C85-12F series Engine less starter & generator. Time on engine since major overhaul is 446.00 Hrs."

 

[Tom-D]

Unless the engine manufacturer provided a document path like a bulletin to reconfigure and re-stamp the engine data plate to the proper model number then no. Only the OEM, STC, or FAA can authorize a data plate change.

Many engines are up graded with new better parts, and the data tag is never change.
The 0-200/300 have two different part numbers for rods, that change was done by the manufacturer by part number for replacement parts, there was no SB issued, just a simple part number change. Rod bolts the same way, you must know which rod you have, and which bolt it requires.
nothing change except what part you will get when you order a new one.

and plus some engines are direct replacements for other engines, If this is the case, there will be approval of some kind, such as the C-145 is known to be a 0-300-A There was not paper on this the FAA simply changed the designation. IOWs I can remove a C-145-2H and replace it with a 0-300-A with no authorization required.
What is happening with the OP engine is solely dependent upon what is on the DATA tag. Until you know that no one can predict what should be done.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Log book says exactly this: Work Performed: Intalled Continental C85-12, SN XXXX-12 in Aeronca 11CC, Reg. # XXXXX. Engine was altered (per) STC#SA69SO for C85-12F series Engine less starter & generator. Time on engine since major overhaul is 446.00 Hrs."

I'd bet it should be logged as a C-85-8F.....modified per STC xxxxxxxx.

 

[Tom-D]

Log book says exactly this: Work Performed: Intalled Continental C85-12, SN XXXX-12 in Aeronca 11CC, Reg. # XXXXX. Engine was altered (per) STC#SA69SO for C85-12F series Engine less starter & generator. Time on engine since major overhaul is 446.00 Hrs."

Then you only need to buy the STC and issue a 337 installing it.
Next question:
what does the data tag say?

 

[Tom-D]

I'd bet it should be logged as a C-85-8F.....modified per STC xxxxxxxx.

I'd wager, that is why I want to know what the data tag says.

Now is this the best example of why we should get the sign off correctly worded.
Come time to sell it could cost you thousands of dollars.

 

[Tom-D]

Log book says exactly this: Work Performed: Intalled Continental C85-12, SN XXXX-12 in Aeronca 11CC, Reg. # XXXXX. Engine was altered (per) STC#SA69SO for C85-12F series Engine less starter & generator. Time on engine since major overhaul is 446.00 Hrs."

You can call TCM tell them that S/N they will tell you if that engine was built as a C-85-8 or a C-85-12F.
I'm finding these old C-series engines are a mishmash of someone's used parts, you don't really know what is under that data tag.

 

[Tom-D]

Exactly, which is what I suspect may have happened here.

That's all well and good, You can suspect any thing you like, but getting down to the short hairs, you must prove it.

 

[Bell206]

Some times an engine can be upgraded on the approved data in a service bulletin and that up grade would be logged in the engine maintenance.. but here is the kicker, the data tag is not changed.

True. But in most cases the data tag will be changed as part of the factory bulletin. Look at the C-75 to C-85 bulletin. New plate from Continental.

However, an upgrade of internal parts vs. a conversion to a different model are two different paths. As you said whats on the data tag is what counts --provided its legit. I totally agree on the status of old C models and a call to Continental.

 

[Tom-D]

True. But in most cases the data tag will be changed as part of the factory bulletin. Look at the C-75 to C-85 bulletin. New plate from Continental.

However, an upgrade of internal parts vs. a conversion to a different model are two different paths. As you said whats on the data tag is what counts --provided its legit. I totally agree on the status of old C models and a call to Continental.

Got a number for that? google doesn't show.

Data tags on the old C-series are as messed up as the old parts they are made from, In the day they were being produced Continental would designate an engine with Bendix mags as one model, and one with Eiseman mags as another. Later on no one cared if you swapped mags or upgraded to Slicks. So these old log books mean nothing really. Just because you have a -8 data tag, doesn't mean that is what you have.

upgrade to slicks did require as STC, but when requested, Unison would pack the paper work in the box with the upgrade kit. Then it would get thrown away with the packing.

So now we have the purest reverting back to Eseimans and the paper work never catches up.

So just because the OP has a data tag that says -12F doesn't mean that is what he has. This is one of the little corners of aviation that you really must be the expert to know what you are looking at.
Most "T" crate owners simply say " Yep sounds good, let's go" and the only people that give a care are the accident investigators.

 

[Tom-D]

True. But in most cases the data tag will be changed as part of the factory bulletin. Look at the C-75 to C-85 bulletin. New plate from Continental.

In the case of change of horse power, when the model was based upon horse power, Ya think ?
C-75, 85, 90, those numbers mean something.

 

[weirdjim]

We are not going to live for ever,

That's true, Tom. I personally plan on going at 93, shot by a jealous husband.

Jim

 

[Bell206]

Got a number for that? google doesn't show

M-47-16. This was the go to bulletin for a number of conversions. It lists all the requirements/accessories needed to change part number and how to obtain new data plate. Don't know latest revision but here's a link I found to revision number I remember:
http://www.mooneymite.com/pdfs/ContSB.M47-16.12-30-47rev9-25-68.pdf

C-75, 85, 90, those numbers mean something.

Really?? But you are correct in that more people converted those old A or C engines on the fly rather than follow the proper paper trail.

 

[flyingron]

Unless the engine manufacturer provided a document path like a bulletin to reconfigure and re-stamp the engine data plate to the proper model number then no. Only the OEM, STC, or FAA can authorize a data plate change.

I doubt an STC could authorize a dataplate change. It might allow an additional stamping or installation of a different type engine but dataplates are sort of sacred.

 

[Bell206]

I doubt an STC could authorize a dataplate change. It might allow an additional stamping or installation of a different type engine but dataplates are sort of sacred.

An STC can authorize a "change" as we both mentioned via re-stamping or modification. I believe only the OEM can replace data plates.