And I thought flying was expensive!

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Ingleside, TX
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Jay Honeck
A friend of mine on the island has a new boat, and we got to talking about fuel prices.

Although marine fuel is "only" $3.75/gallon, he needs to buy 300 gallons to top the tanks! He usually fuels when it's down about 175 gallons, so we're talking $650 a pop. :yikes:

And I was bitchin' about spending $250 to top the tanks in Atlas the other day...

Given the vast numbers of boats down here, I'd say that the demise of General Aviation is not as much related to cost as I once believed... :confused:
 
I bet his boat doesn't need a hangar or go through annual. I bet his didn't blow multiple AMUs getting his PBC (private boater certificate). I bet he can do whatever he likes to his boat without some pencil necked administrator getting up his six.
 
Sounds like a big boat. Wonder what his range is............
 
Boats suck a lot of gas and go very slow, so they don't get too far. However, you can do a lot on a boat when it is just sitting still. Most boats seemed to be floating party platforms if anything.
 
Jay Honeck said:
A friend of mine on the island has a new boat, and we got to talking about fuel prices.

Although marine fuel is "only" $3.75/gallon, he needs to buy 300 gallons to top the tanks! He usually fuels when it's down about 175 gallons, so we're talking $650 a pop. :yikes:

And I was bitchin' about spending $250 to top the tanks in Atlas the other day...

Given the vast numbers of boats down here, I'd say that the demise of General Aviation is not as much related to cost as I once believed... :confused:
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No, it's related to all those idiots spending all their money on boats instead of airplanes! :D
 
his wife probably likes going out on the boat for the weekend. and if she doesn't his girlfriend probably does.
 
steingar said:
I bet his boat doesn't need a hangar or go through annual. I bet his didn't blow multiple AMUs getting his PBC (private boater certificate). I bet he can do whatever he likes to his boat without some pencil necked administrator getting up his six.
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Well, a boat does typically require a place to dock it. Unless you happen to own a house that has its own, that means you're either pulling it out of the water and putting it in every time or you're paying a docking fee, similar to a hangar and sometimes about the same cost wise. In the winter you still have to do something with it. It doesn't require an annual, but stuff does break on it, and isn't cheap when it does.

The safe boater license (or whatever the appropriate state has) will be significantly cheaper and easier to obtain, that is true. But the coast guard is probably about as likely to get on you as the FAA is (although I have no idea on the repercussions).

Power boats also get worse mileage than planes. I used to have a coworker with a Cigarette boat that got 1 mpg. Even the Navajo gets roughly 5.5 mpg, and is going a whole bunch faster doing it.

But I think the difference is that unless you're some sick and twisted kind of person (like me) you don't find dodging thunderstorms, icing, and instrument approaches to minimums to be fun, and you won't take a Navajo out just because it's fun (usually). A boat, by comparison, is about recreation.
 
steingar said:
I bet his boat doesn't need a hangar or go through annual. I bet his didn't blow multiple AMUs getting his PBC (private boater certificate). I bet he can do whatever he likes to his boat without some pencil necked administrator getting up his six.
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Not even close. Slip fees are same or more than hangar fees. While you may not need "an annual", you will spend a lot of money every year. Boats tend to measure in gallons per mile of fuel consumption.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
In the winter you still have to do something with it.
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Not down here. Boating is year 'round in South Texas.

What I don't get about boating is that you can't go ANYWHERE without spending an ungodly amount of money on fuel -- and even then you're moving in super-slow-motion. In Atlas, I can be in Iowa for lunch. WTF do you do with a boat?
 
I have a sailboat, and my fixed costs are in the neighborhood of 600/mo between slip rent and the diver that cleans the bottom. This doesn't even get into what it cost to re-rig when one of the shrouds broke. Maybe an airplane would have been cheaper..:)
 
load up 10 of your friends, a couple of cases of beer, and spend all day on the water enjoying yourselves, if thats what brings you enjoyment at least.
 
True, we are comparing apples and oranges. An aircraft is a way to get to a destination. A boat is a destination.
 
steingar said:
I bet his boat doesn't need a hangar or go through annual. I bet his didn't blow multiple AMUs getting his PBC (private boater certificate). I bet he can do whatever he likes to his boat without some pencil necked administrator getting up his six.
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Hangar? LOL. My smallish sailboat (the marine equivalent of a 172) cost me about $270/mo in slip fees... that's for nothing but the right to tie one single boat up in a particular spot... plus more for shore power, etc. I can get an equivalent for an airplane for between $30 and $150/mo. I can rent a fully enclosed hangar in many areas for less than I paid for that slip.

Annual? Well let's see... about once a year I hauled the boat out and re-did the antifouling paint, replaced zincs, and so on. If I didn't the galvanic corrosion would eat away the metal and eventually sink the boat. It was fairly cheap, on average a boat buck or two each time. In comparison, a new set of sails (needed every few years) was about 11 boat bucks. Between those, required maintenance of the brightwork, etc, figure basic preventive maintenance was around 4-5 boat bucks a year.

That's $7,250-$8,250 USD/yr, not counting operating expenses, just to park and hold back entropy on one small sailboat. If one thing goes wrong it can easily be thousands more...and that was a small boat.

AMUs getting a boater cert? No, I lucked out there.

As for being free of administrators, dream on. Gov't boarding to inspect, gov't officials wiring parts in place using seals so they could tell if anyone tampered with the wiring, the threat of $25,000 fines for anything that resulted in a "sheen" on the water, etc. Yeah, I could replace the engine with whatever I wanted, or modify the boat how I liked, but I still had to comply.

I didn't have very high fuel bills, being a sailboat, but when I did run the engine I got about 2.4 MPG and could burn $100 getting back to port on a calm day.

Flying costs a bit more up front (especially the PPL) but a lot of boaters could switch to flying and save money.
 
He needs a sailboat, I made the trip through the Welland Canal last weekend, 14 hours of motoring, (Buffalo to Port Colborne into the wind, then through the canal, sailed from Port Weller to Youngstown) used 5 gallons of diesel. 8hp inboard, 27' 7000lb boat. The boat cost me $5000, I put that much into it getting it comfortable (paint, repairs, new mainsail, running rigging, various electronics), and it costs about $2000 a year to moor and store it.
 
eMKay said:
He needs a sailboat, I made the trip through the Welland Canal last weekend, 14 hours of motoring, (Buffalo to Port Colborne into the wind, then through the canal, sailed from Port Weller to Youngstown) used 5 gallons of diesel. 8hp inboard, 27' 7000lb boat. The boat cost me $5000, I put that much into it getting it comfortable (paint, repairs, new mainsail, running rigging, various electronics), and it costs about $2000 a year to moor and store it.
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??? What 27' boat do you have that has an 8hp inboard, and what kind of inboard? What speed do you motor at? Or are you talking about an 8hp outboard that is in a well?
 
I may be qualified to comment on this thread. As I collect a certain old boat. All tolled I have 8 boats and two jet skiis. If anyone is interested in the extent of my illness, check my site www.andysclassicglastrons.com
At any rate, I have owned several airplanes over the years. My latest is a 1974 Archer.

Boats smaller than 25 feet are less upkeep and annual expense than an airplane. By a long shot. If your talking cabin cruiser type boats, I'm no expert in this area but can only surmize that it could be on par or even more than an airplane. The old saying. Hole in the water you pour money into.
 
8hp inboards aren't that rare. Yanmar turned out thousands of 8hp single cylinder diesels for sailboats. It's about right for a 27' boat.

In my case my boat had a wasteful gasoline engine that turned what should've been a very efficient boat into a gas hog. It was only in the 10hp range, and an inboard.
 
ziege said:
8hp inboards aren't that rare. Yanmar turned out thousands of 8hp single cylinder diesels for sailboats. It's about right for a 27' boat.

In my case my boat had a wasteful gasoline engine that turned what should've been a very efficient boat into a gas hog. It was only in the 10hp range, and an inboard.
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That's why I was wondering if you had a North Sea 27. Gas engines don't belong in a displacement boat, they don't belong in airplanes either.

I usually like having 18-20hp in a 27' sailboat for when you have to push into a strong headwind & sea.
 
Not sure what eMKay has, but my 27' was a Morgan.

A previous owner had swapped the original engine (may have been an atomic 4) with a 10hp gas (basically lawnmower) engine to shave a claimed 250lbs, which he considered important for racing. The boat went pretty well so I won't say he was wrong, but as soon as the engine failed I was going to install a small diesel. Had to get rid of the boat first.

Extra HP is nice too, but I'd be comfortable with anything between 8 and 40 on a 27' boat.
 
steingar said:
I bet his boat doesn't need a hangar or go through annual. I bet his didn't blow multiple AMUs getting his PBC (private boater certificate). I bet he can do whatever he likes to his boat without some pencil necked administrator getting up his six.
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I bet you haven't priced a slip at a marina for a 30+ foot boat lately. Or the annual haul out / repaint. When I had a power boat, getting stopped by the Sheriff, DNR, Coastguard, Border Patrol for an inspection of safety equipment and/or paperwork was a regular thing.

All hobbies cost the same.
 
Henning said:
??? What 27' boat do you have that has an 8hp inboard, and what kind of inboard? What speed do you motor at? Or are you talking about an 8hp outboard that is in a well?
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1980 Hunter 27, Renault RC8D inboard, not in a well. It's top speed motoring is 6kts (maybe 6.5 if the water is glass and there is no wind)
 
Henning said:
That's why I was wondering if you had a North Sea 27. Gas engines don't belong in a displacement boat, they don't belong in airplanes either.

I usually like having 18-20hp in a 27' sailboat for when you have to push into a strong headwind & sea.
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It would be nice, and it's in the plan for the future to upgrade, but the Renault is so damn reliable it stays for now. Into a 15kt headwind and waves it will do 4.5kts, any more than that and I don't even bother going out if I have to motor.
 
I've paid all of $40 dollars the last 12 months on my sailboat........ new compass and new hiking strap.....sunfish FTW
 
Jay Honeck said:
What I don't get about boating is that you can't go ANYWHERE without spending an ungodly amount of money on fuel -- and even then you're moving in super-slow-motion. In Atlas, I can be in Iowa for lunch. WTF do you do with a boat?
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I have a boat, a 45 foot twin diesel Pilothouse Yacht. My tanks hold 500 gallons of diesel. Running 10 to 12 knots I average 1.5 miles per gallon, bump it up to 16 knots and it drops to 1.0 mile/gallon.

Two Staterooms, a convertible room that makes into a bunk room, 2 full heads with showers, full galley, ice maker, 3 air conditioner units, 250 gallons fresh water, 20 gallon water heater, satellite TV, 12.5KW genset.

My family and I spend every weekend on the boat. Sometimes we leave the marina and go out, sometimes we don't. We have friends come over, cook out, swim, fish and have a good time.

Boating is not about getting there fast, but enjoying the time on the water. If I go out to a quiet cove 10 miles away, anchor out, spend the night and motor back the next day, that's 15 to 25 gallons diesel (depending upon generator usage). That's a bargain in my book.

My slip runs about $250/month, + electric. Since I enjoy working on my own boat maintenance has been reasonable.

If I need a part for my boat, I have many options. I'm not reliant on "approved parts" or having a "certified" mechanic perform the work and "sign the logs".

I'm a guy that's owned 25 different aircraft over my career. An airplane doesn't give me the enjoyment that the boat does, and it's something the whole family enjoys. Your airplane cost you more than you really want to admit, and to the recreational flyer you are limited in it's use. With my boat I'm not limited by weather like a plane is.
 
Anthony said:
Boats suck a lot of gas and go very slow, so they don't get too far. However, you can do a lot on a boat when it is just sitting still. Most boats seemed to be floating party platforms if anything.
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Yeah, I just can't see inviting a few buddies to sit inside the Skylane, drink beers, and trade stories. Hangar maybe. :wink2:
 
It's not just planes and boats. My brother owned his own race car for SCCA racing. He was instructor qualified at Loudon, NH and Lime Rock, Conn, plus he raced at a few other road courses in Virginia and at Mid-Ohio.

He easily dropped $1500 on a two day race weekend for just fuel and other fees. That did not count his regular maintenance or tires, or his travel to the track,food and lodging. He last raced in the its class with a BMW 325.
 
Bravo3 said:
Yeah, I just can't see inviting a few buddies to sit inside the Skylane, drink beers, and trade stories. Hangar maybe. :wink2:
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Yep, that's what boats are for most boaters, anyway... they've combined the vehicle with the hangar, in a way. Pretty clever.

But they don't fly... :D
 
Anthony said:
Most boats seemed to be floating party platforms if anything.
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I think that is a big reason boats are more popular than airplanes. The family and/or friends can have just as much fun as the driver.
 
Everskyward said:
I think that is a big reason boats are more popular than airplanes. The family and/or friends can have just as much fun as the driver.
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We have friends in our hometown (Racine, WI) who have a 42' yacht docked in Reefpoint Marina. The thing cost more than my last house, by a factor of two. It has two heads, full kitchen, the whole nine yards. They take it out once a year, on a "cross-the lake" convoy with a whole bunch of friends. The rest of the time, it's putter up and down the shore, or just stay in dock.

They live on it all summer long -- which, in Wisconsin, is about 14 weeks. After that, they pay to have the thing removed with a crane and have it shrink-wrapped in plastic, so it can sit outside encrusted with snow.

At least here on the island, boating is year 'round. The salt water destroys everything, from what I'm told, but the weather is perfect for boating almost all the time.

To me, my friend is insane. Owning a boat like that is insane. Owning a boat like that on the Great Lakes is beyond insane. On the other hand, he thinks I'm nuts to own airplanes... :rolleyes:
 
14 weeks X 7 X 24 hours. Your friends are logging 2,352 boat hours a year, sounds good to me. :)
Jay Honeck said:
We have friends in our hometown (Racine, WI) who have a 42' yacht docked in Reefpoint Marina. The thing cost more than my last house, by a factor of two. It has two heads, full kitchen, the whole nine yards. They take it out once a year, on a "cross-the lake" convoy with a whole bunch of friends. The rest of the time, it's putter up and down the shore, or just stay in dock.

They live on it all summer long -- which, in Wisconsin, is about 14 weeks. After that, they pay to have the thing removed with a crane and have it shrink-wrapped in plastic, so it can sit outside encrusted with snow.

At least here on the island, boating is year 'round. The salt water destroys everything, from what I'm told, but the weather is perfect for boating almost all the time.

To me, my friend is insane. Owning a boat like that is insane. Owning a boat like that on the Great Lakes is beyond insane. On the other hand, he thinks I'm nuts to own airplanes... :rolleyes:
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steingar said:
True, we are comparing apples and oranges. An aircraft is a way to get to a destination. A boat is a destination.
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Who said?

So many of my flights are "local"... flying in a small plane IS recreation!
 
Nobody discussed how juries decide the liability in boat and airplane accidents respectively yet?

Another thing, having a small trailerable boat is far less painful than a small trailerable airplane. I see a lot of people talk about slipway fees and the like, but the mass of boaters is a class smaller than that.
 
eMKay said:
It would be nice, and it's in the plan for the future to upgrade, but the Renault is so damn reliable it stays for now. Into a 15kt headwind and waves it will do 4.5kts, any more than that and I don't even bother going out if I have to motor.
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If you want a fast comfortable monohull, look at a Hobie 33.
 
zaitcev said:
Nobody discussed how juries decide the liability in boat and airplane accidents respectively yet?

Another thing, having a small trailerable boat is far less painful than a small trailerable airplane. I see a lot of people talk about slipway fees and the like, but the mass of boaters is a class smaller than that.
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The mass of the boaters where?

As for liability for aircraft outside of Airline Service it's about the same as marine liability. If it's airline service it falls under "Strict Liability", no excuse, no nothing, you own it.
 
Airplanes for transportation? Time to spare, go by air...

Ok, kidding aside, it is nice to fly along a freeway and watch all the traffic passing me.

Last ride, I left the doors open and kept the engine down at about 4500 or so (~50% power). Nice ride. And an even better view without the plastic in the way on each side. I even got a picture of my landing gear.
https://picasaweb.google.com/113074946255891896082/N222gn#5627882818249787842
:)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Airplanes for transportation? Time to spare, go by air...
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I hear this all the time, but frankly, GA has been a very reliable means of transportation for me, and is generally 3 times faster than driving. The very few occasions where I've had to wait a bit for weather don't even come close to the amount of time I'd have spent if I drove. In fact, I once flew a trip rather than driving because the roads were all icy, but the sky was clear.
 
Henning said:
The mass of the boaters where?
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Across the country ?

Overall, the number of boaters with any kind of trailerable boat is probably larger than the number of boats that require a slip and hauling by the marina.

The biggest fixed expense you have for a trailerable boat is the big pickup or SUV required to tow it.
 
Henning said:
If you want a fast comfortable monohull, look at a Hobie 33.
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I already have a fast and comfortable monohull, 7 knots in 10 knots of wind, sails past Beneteau 31's all day (or any more modern boat with useless furling mains). I already have a Hobie Wave too (for when I want to go really fast). A Hobie 33 might be a knot faster than my Hunter, but it sure isn't more comfortable. It doesn't even have standing headroom.
 
weilke said:
Across the country ?

Overall, the number of boaters with any kind of trailerable boat is probably larger than the number of boats that require a slip and hauling by the marina.

The biggest fixed expense you have for a trailerable boat is the big pickup or SUV required to tow it.
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You get that number set from where?
 
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