And another logging question (sheesh!)

T Bone

T Bone

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T Bone
This came up when I was talking with an instructor about getting the complex and high performance endorsements. He stated I'd be logging the time as PIC, but it is my understanding I cannot as I am not endorsed for these aircraft. I know, I know, this has been covered before.... but enlighten me once more please? I didn't log my tailwheel endorsement as PIC either, again due to the endorsement not being present. (I recall the bit on category/class, but doesn't one also need the endorsement to act/log as PIC?)

Thanks!
 
T Bone said:
(I recall the bit on category/class, but doesn't one also need the endorsement to act/log as PIC?)
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Acting or logging PIC?

I suggest you answer this question yourself. Researching the information in the FARs will be the best way to learn the answer and implant that answer more or less permanently. You are right, you cannot be PIC. Look up the requirements to log PIC under the sole manipulator clause.... report back.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Acting or logging PIC?

I suggest you answer this question yourself. Researching the information in the FARs will be the best way to learn the answer and implant that answer more or less permanently. You are right, you cannot be PIC. Look up the requirements to log PIC under the sole manipulator clause.... report back.

-Skip
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Good answer, Skip. I know two CFIs who didn't bother to read it carefully ;)
 
T Bone said:
(I recall the bit on category/class, but doesn't one also need the endorsement to act/log as PIC?)
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Psst, yes and no, respectively.

Yes, you need the endorsement to be the ACTING PIC.

No, you don't need the endorsement to LOG PIC.

The key to the logging question is in 61.51, which does not require endorsements. To see if you need something, just look at your pilots license. If it says Airplane Single Engine Land, then you can log all the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an SEL airplane, even if that airplane is a taildragger, HP, and/or complex.

Don't tell anyone I told you the answer. Just be sure to read 61.51.
 
T-Bone, the way the FAA has interpreted the logging PIC provisions of FAR 61.51(e) for at least the past 25 years, all that is required for a someone who has at least a recreational pilot certificate to log the time he is the only one handling the flight controls is the appropriate category and class ratings printed on the back of the pilot certificate.

Endorsements, currency, medical certificates, etc, are not required. They are, of course, required in order to be in charge (acting PIC) of the flight.

Although I have a FAQ that discusses it, (http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#3) I don't think just reading it is quite as easy as people make it seem. It's simple =after= you know the interpretations, not necessarily before.

Your complex instructor has been exposed to it; your tailwheel instructor was probably not. It's not at all common for CFIs who have not been browbeaten and insulted about it iin online forums to be confused about the issue.
 
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Jeff S KDTW said:
Psst, yes and no, respectively.

Yes, you need the endorsement to be the ACTING PIC.

No, you don't need the endorsement to LOG PIC.

The key to the logging question is in 61.51, which does not require endorsements. To see if you need something, just look at your pilots license. If it says Airplane Single Engine Land, then you can log all the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an SEL airplane, even if that airplane is a taildragger, HP, and/or complex.

Don't tell anyone I told you the answer. Just be sure to read 61.51.
Click to expand...

Lol! I won't tell them you helped, thanks!

Skip was correct of course, it does help one to "get it" if they look it up (probably remembers answering essentially the same question for me 2 years or so ago). Difference then was we were talking about logging/acting as PIC as a safety pilot with another pilot under the hood. That is where my confusion began, I was remembering I could not ACT as PIC in a complex/HP airplane as safety pilot for another, as I was not so endorsed.

Of course this is different, as covered by 61.51 (e). I don't have a current (printed) copy of the FAR's with me (shame on me!) but I'd forgotten they are readily available online. Problem solved, they are now bookmarked for further reference.

Thanks again guys!
 
When I'm talking with pilots about this, I believe the confusion comes partly from the fact that the logbook has one column for PIC. Technically, one could add another PIC column and therefore have two places to write in PIC time in the logbook. One column for acting, one for "logging," or the case in which you cannot act as PIC but can "log" it due to sole manipulator status. Often, then, one would have the entry in both columns. Personally, I wouldn't bother.
 
My logbooks have a "Total time" column, yes. And all flight time [except sim'] goes there. But they also have three other columns: "dual rec'd," PIC, SIC. I've known many CFIs to log their students' times in "dual rec'd" and total and nothing in the PIC column if the training is for an endorsement or class. My own logbook from my training days has no entry in the PIC column for anything I got dual for in tailwheel, multi, IMC, etc., until I was endorsed or rated. This was back in the 1980s. These days, I think more people are clear that PIC was appropriate and technically I could go back and add it into my first logbook. That's what I meant by confusion...there's acting PIC and logging PIC. Either one is "logged" in the PIC column, if the logbook has a PIC column.

I have had students who were religious about making sure I wrote in "PIC'" time in the logbook because, they say, the airlines want to see as much of their time logged that way as possible. I have no idea whether this is accurate or whether this has become a "common knowledge" notion that isn't really correct. I am not an airline sort, someone else here who has been involved in interviewing/hiring may know if that is correct. The reason I mention it here is that at our school, back in the nineties, these students began to get pretty irate with some of the older CFIs who were accustomed to leaving the PIC column blank at times....
 
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KennyFlys said:
You're effectively referring to the total time column.
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No, he's referring to the PIC column as explicitly specified in the original question.

Since getting my ticket, the only time that I haven't logged as PIC was:

1) 1.2 as safety pilot in the Arrow prior to my complex endorsement. I could not ACT as PIC due to lack of endorsement, and I could not LOG PIC because I was not the one manipulating the controls or acting as PIC.
2) Several hours of AMEL time.
3) A bit of ASES time.
4) A bit of G time.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
1) 1.2 as safety pilot in the Arrow prior to my complex endorsement. I could not ACT as PIC due to lack of endorsement, and I could not LOG PIC because I was not the one manipulating the controls or acting as PIC.
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How can you do this? You can't act as PIC, which is what the safety pilot does, right?
 
SkyHog said:
How can you do this? You can't act as PIC, which is what the safety pilot does, right?
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No Nick. The safety pilot may or may not ACT as PIC, depending on his qualifications and what was agreed to beforehand. If the safety pilot is not qualified to ACT as PIC, then he may not LOG PIC. But he may log SIC since he is a required crewmember.

Round and round we go. :rofl:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
No Nick. The safety pilot may or may not ACT as PIC, depending on his qualifications and what was agreed to beforehand. If the safety pilot is not qualified to ACT as PIC, then he may not LOG PIC. But he may log SIC since he is a required crewmember.

Round and round we go. :rofl:
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So then the person under the hood acts as PIC? How can he do that when he can't see what's going on?
 
SkyHog said:
So then the person under the hood acts as PIC? How can he do that when he can't see what's going on?
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Acting as PIC is about responsibility, not about manipulating flight controls or seeing out the window. Like anyone with ultimate responsibility for a task, the PIC on a flight can assign crew duties.

Think about it: who is the PIC on an airline when the captain goes to the restroom? Hint: he's still the captain.
 
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
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I know this horse has been beaten to death more than once and I believe what you guys are saying but this right here clearly says that you have to have 'privileges' in order to count time as PIC regardless if you are logging it as 'sole manipulator' or 'acting PIC'. I read your FAQ Mark but it doesn't explain how a not 'privileged' pilot receiving training in a complex can log PIC without that endorsement. Please someone spell it out for me so I can prove my instructor wrong.
 
The "privileges" phrase applies only to Light Sport pilots, who have "privileges" but not "ratings." For all other rated pilots, the only issue is whether you have the necessary ratings on your pilot certificate. HP, complex, tailwheel, etc., are additional training endorsements, not "ratings," and so are not required to log PIC time when you're the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated or, for LSP's, have privileges.
 
jayray said:
I know this horse has been beaten to death more than once and I believe what you guys are saying but this right here clearly says that you have to have 'privileges' in order to count time as PIC regardless if you are logging it as 'sole manipulator' or 'acting PIC'. I read your FAQ Mark but it doesn't explain how a not 'privileged' pilot receiving training in a complex can log PIC without that endorsement. Please someone spell it out for me so I can prove my instructor wrong.
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It's very simple:

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

Note the word OR (it specifically does NOT say AND). A pilot rated as ASEL, let's say, getting instruction in a complex fits the first clause -- he is rated in category and class. He does not satisfy the second clause since he doesn't have priveleges until he completes his endorsement, but that doesn't matter because you only have to satisfly one clause or the other -- not both.

I've had CFIs screw this up twice -- once while working on a tail dragger endorsement and the other transitioning to the R44 from the R22 (because of SFAR 73).

If your CFI won't enter it as PIC time, you can do so (and I did after talking to a local DPE).
 
Where's my bat? I feel a beating is in need!
 
smigaldi said:
Does this mean that with my single engine LICENSE that I cannot log multi when I act as safety pilot??
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I think for an ASEL pilot to log PIC in a multi-engine, one engine has to be disabled and placarded per 91.213.

:goofy:
 
smigaldi said:
Does this mean that with my single engine LICENSE that I cannot log multi when I act as safety pilot??


:D:D:D:D;);););)
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Hmm... can an ASEL pilot act as a safety pilot in an AMEL? You're a required crew member, so you must have a medical. I think you need to be rated in category and class too to be a safety pilot, but a quick scan of the FAR doesn't explicitly confirm or deny.
 
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.
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I understand the explanations above on the logging of complex or high performance time without the endorsement during training however if you read 61.31 it says you cannot act as PIC. I assume this means you can't be the LEGAL PIC but can still be the sole manipulator PIC?? What reg spells out the difference between Legal PIC and sole manipulator PIC?
 
jayray said:
I understand the explanations above on the logging of complex or high performance time without the endorsement during training however if you read 61.31 it says you cannot act as PIC. I assume this means you can't be the LEGAL PIC but can still be the sole manipulator PIC?? What reg spells out the difference between Legal PIC and sole manipulator PIC?
Click to expand...


61.51 LOGGING
 
Hmm... can an ASEL pilot act as a safety pilot in an AMEL?
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No, 91.109 says "... safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."
-harry
 
EdFred said:
61.51 LOGGING
Click to expand...

Well that makes no sense whatsoever to have one reg say you can't be PIC and another reg saying you can actually log PIC. But I've seen people try to argue that there can only be one PIC and everytime they lose. Wouldn't it just be easier and make more sense if they just spelled it out in plain English that you can have both a legal PIC and a 'sole manipulator of the controls' PIC?
 
jayray said:
I understand the explanations above on the logging of complex or high performance time without the endorsement during training however if you read 61.31 it says you cannot act as PIC. I assume this means you can't be the LEGAL PIC but can still be the sole manipulator PIC?? What reg spells out the difference between Legal PIC and sole manipulator PIC?
Click to expand...

They do. 61.31 gives the requirement for acting as PIC, 61.51 gives the requirement for logging PIC time. They're pretty clear about it.

Expecting the FARs to make sense is something else again. That's kind of like me expecting to hear that some rich uncle who I never heard of died, and left me a brand new Bell 407 with enough money to keep it maintained and full up with Jet-A :D
 
I think in this case they make ~pretty good~ sense. Once you understand that logging PIC and acting PIC are wholly separate and that 61.51 relates to ONLY logging PIC, it becomes pretty clear.
 
jayray said:
Well that makes no sense whatsoever to have one reg say you can't be PIC and another reg saying you can actually log PIC. But I've seen people try to argue that there can only be one PIC and everytime they lose.
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Only if they're arguing with someone from outside the FAA Chief Counsel's office. Even though the regs more than one pilot to log PIC time at a time, they do not allow more than one pilot to be the PIC at one time.

Wouldn't it just be easier and make more sense if they just spelled it out in plain English that you can have both a legal PIC and a 'sole manipulator of the controls' PIC?
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Perhaps it would, but it wouldn't be correct. Since the PIC is the "final authority," and there cannot be more than one final authority, there can only be one PIC at a time. The problem stems from the FAA's insistence on using the term "PIC time" to mean something other than "time spent as the PIC," and consequently allowing folks to log PIC time without being the PIC, and folks to be the PIC without being able to log it as PIC time.:mad:
 
I just wanted to note that anytime you "log" PIC per 61.51, you're doing so as the "sole manipulator of the controls" (or sole occupant of the aircraft), unless "(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."

If you are flying a typical single or multiengine airplane i.e., one that is certified as a single pilot airplane, you are not logging PIC as the acting PIC, but as the "sole manipulator". You do not log PIC for acting as PIC unless more than one pilot is required.
 
I think I need to make a flowchart.
 
troy whistman has a great flowchart for logging and acting as PIC. It should be made into a sticky. Ive got it on my home computer if he says go ahead and post it.
 
jayray said:
Wouldn't it just be easier and make more sense if they just spelled it out in plain English
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HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
tonycondon said:
troy whistman has a great flowchart for logging and acting as PIC. It should be made into a sticky. Ive got it on my home computer if he says go ahead and post it.
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I just made one. Someone (Ron/Ed G./Bruce/Tony) double check my work.
 

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Ed Fred,that's pretty cool. :yes:

Now another question. What to do when the instructor "demonstrates" something, that would make the certificated left seater no longer the "sole manipulator of the controls". So, does one simply reduce the flight time logged PIC for the flight by the approximate duration of the instructor's input, or does one not log the flight as PIC?

This occurs to me for three flights on my tailwheel training, where the instructor had some input on demonstrating a technique or a desired attitude. With the exception of one full pattern where he wanted me to observe, this was brief instances lasting maybe 30 to 60 seconds.... (I know, we're splitting hairs, but....). So?
 
T Bone said:
Ed Fred,that's pretty cool. :yes:

Now another question. What to do when the instructor "demonstrates" something, that would make the certificated left seater no longer the "sole manipulator of the controls". So, does one simply reduce the flight time logged PIC for the flight by the approximate duration of the instructor's input, or does one not log the flight as PIC?

This occurs to me for three flights on my tailwheel training, where the instructor had some input on demonstrating a technique or a desired attitude. With the exception of one full pattern where he wanted me to observe, this was brief instances lasting maybe 30 to 60 seconds.... (I know, we're splitting hairs, but....). So?
Click to expand...

Techinically yes, but I, and I don't think anyone else is going to worry about it, and my CFIs never wrote down flight time 1.4, PIC time 1.3.
 
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ghogue said:
I just wanted to note that anytime you "log" PIC per 61.51, you're doing so as the "sole manipulator of the controls" (or sole occupant of the aircraft), unless "(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted."
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Unfortunately, that's not entirely correct. An instructor giving instruction may also log PIC time without being either the sole manipulator or the PIC. Likewise, an ATP commanding a flight requiring an ATP may log PIC time regardless of who's flying or how many pilots are required.

If you are flying a typical single or multiengine airplane i.e., one that is certified as a single pilot airplane, you are not logging PIC as the acting PIC, but as the "sole manipulator". You do not log PIC for acting as PIC unless more than one pilot is required.
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Since not many single-pilot airplanes are used in operations where only one pilot is required, this is pretty much true. However, there are flight operations which by regulation require two pilots even if the aircraft requires only one, mostly under Part 135. In these cases, the PIC may log PIC time when the 135-required co-pilot is flying the aircraft, even if the aircraft itself requires only one pilot.
 
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