An Open Post To The Management Counsel

wanttaja said:
Well...shoot, it's *their* forum (or at least they operate it on behalf of the forum owner). If you feel your membership dues are being used improperly, then stop paying dues.

Oh, you *aren't* paying dues? Then consider taking your custom to another forum, or starting your own.
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You are 100% correct Ron, and that is exactly what has been happening with many long term POA members/contributors. They have gotten sick of it and left.
 
JOhnH said:
I'll admit that I was one that was getting frustrated with some of the BS and personal insults in the SZ, and had asked the MC to do something about it. But reading this (thanks Geico), I have changed my mind. If I think someone is out of line in the SZ, I reserve the right to call them out on it. Of course, they can tell me to FO and/or ignore me. But as long as what is in the SZ stays in the SZ, then I request that the MCs just let us alone in our little arena. But sometimes, stuff from the SZ does spill out into the civilized areas, and the MC should crack down on that.
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The SZ is like someone buying a house near an airport then complaining about airplane noise. If you don't like airplane noises don't buy a house near an airport. If you don't like to debate stay out of the SZ. :dunno:
 
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Geico266 said:
Thr SZ is like someone buying a house near an airport then co planning about airplane noise. If you ddon't like airplane noises don't buy a house near an airport. If you don't like to debate stay out of the SZ. :dunno:
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Or, since we just discussed it, like someone buying a house in a neighborhood with restrictive covenants and/or an HoA and then bitching about it.

I think a lot of this would be cured by having a modest annual membership fee. $20 would cull a lot of Honyocks.
 
Geico266 said:
Thr SZ is like someone buying a house near an airport then co planning about airplane noise. If you ddon't like airplane noises don't buy a house near an airport. If you don't like to debate stay out of the SZ. :dunno:
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I'm not quite sure about the tone of your response? Are you lecturing me even after I admitted you were right, and thanked you for it?

But remember, even debates have rules and limits.
 
I recall what I said at Grant and Leslie's do at the Show. Its just politics. The SZ is just good fun and little else. What binds us all together is far more important than the petty differences over which we argue. The best part of POA is by far the incredible fellowship.
 
Fearless Tower said:
You are 100% correct Ron, and that is exactly what has been happening with many long term POA members/contributors. They have gotten sick of it and left.
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Yep. And it scares away potential new contributors; I have a few mention "low signal to noise" ratio to me.

The question becomes, is POA *worth* saving?

I'm a member of three or four other aviation forums and *nothing* of this scale happens on the other forums. Even some of same participants. And they don't have "councils", just a moderator or two.

The difference is that these forums have no subgroups for political rants and personal sniping. Any that start get nipped in the bud.

So people don't go to the XYZ or ABC forums for their fix of flaming. They go to POA, and don't care if they're in the spin zone or not. You see the some of the same people on these other forums that appear on POA. Yet, oddly enough, it's the true *contributors*, not the battlespinners.

I can't see *any* changes in the Spin Zone happening to effect on the bleedover into the non-SZ areas. Mass, permanent ejections of the primary offenders, maybe... but that that would start its own flames right there, and, of course, more claims of bias. So I doubt the MC will do it.

Personally, were I running a non-revenue forum, with volunteer moderators, and 99% of my problems came from one particular section...shoot, I'd can that forum section right quick.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Yep. And it scares away potential new contributors; I have a few mention "low signal to noise" ratio to me.

The question becomes, is POA *worth* saving?

I'm a member of three or four other aviation forums and *nothing* of this scale happens on the other forums. Even some of same participants. And they don't have "councils", just a moderator or two.

The difference is that these forums have no subgroups for political rants and personal sniping. Any that start get nipped in the bud.

So people don't go to the XYZ or ABC forums for their fix of flaming. They go to POA, and don't care if they're in the spin zone or not. You see the some of the same people on these other forums that appear on POA. Yet, oddly enough, it's the true *contributors*, not the battlespinners.

I can't see *any* changes in the Spin Zone happening to effect on the bleedover into the non-SZ areas. Mass, permanent ejections of the primary offenders, maybe... but that that would start its own flames right there, and, of course, more claims of bias. So I doubt the MC will do it.

Personally, were I running a non-revenue forum, with volunteer moderators, and 99% of my problems came from one particular section...shoot, I'd can that forum section right quick.

Ron Wanttaja
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I know of another aviation forum that has the equivalent of spin zone; they call it " mos eisley" . Yet it doesn't have the same issues as this board has had recently. I note that things have become more civil here the past few days though.

I agree with your assessment of personal attacks in your earlier post, but I note that the response to a personal attack seem unevenly applied.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Just to clarify, R&W: it depends on if the post gets reported, or one of us on the MC sees them (in which case, WE report it, and still need three votes to act on it).

The MC applies that rule consistently, but we don't read every thread on POA. We depend on the community to make us aware of images that bypass the profanity filters.
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Sounds like you need more help. Moderators don't have to be on the MC, you could just recruit volunteers by forum.


Everskyward said:
Not all reported posts are acted upon for obvious reasons. We often get reports which we do not think rise to the level of action. We also get frivolous reports from members who are obviously ****ed that we took action against them and not someone else. Not to mention the fact that the other poster may have gotten a warning which does not show up under their username.
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Of course this happens, it's the nature of forums. There is no right or wrong answer, but in spite of the fact I think you guys are reasonably fair, there is some truth to the statement that what happens to you does depend on WHO YOU ARE.

You know these people. How often do we read "you should meet them in person, if you did you'd have a different opinion".

But we're not "in person". So, to me, that argument is a red herring.


SCCutler said:
Never on purpose, and it's not as if the MC is comprised of a bunch of clones. you might be surprised, but we often disagree with each other, too.
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I've told you this privately, and I'm sure you didn't like it, but you need more help. There is no reason that every post can't be read by a volunteer. Volunteer mods do not have to belong to the MC. This forum is much bigger than it was when you developed the concept.

More Moderator votes would also make action more possible and further it would take the "personalities" out of the mix. That way, the MC could continue to participate and have friends and not have to feel like they are disciplining their friends.

If you don't like the job a particular moderator does, just get rid of them. You're not making a lifetime commitment here.

It looks like you're trying to "keep things as they've always been". I get the nostalgia, but seriously, this forum is way too big to not evolve.
 
JOhnH said:
I'll admit that I was one that was getting frustrated with some of the BS and personal insults in the SZ, and had asked the MC to do something about it. But reading this (thanks Geico), I have changed my mind. If I think someone is out of line in the SZ, I reserve the right to call them out on it. Of course, they can tell me to FO and/or ignore me. But as long as what is in the SZ stays in the SZ, then I request that the MCs just let us alone in our little arena. But sometimes, stuff from the SZ does spill out into the civilized areas, and the MC should crack down on that.
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I'm glad they finally clarified there are no rules in SZ, now they should make that clear in the header and remove "the artifact" that says quite clearly that all the rules of the ROC are in effect, which they obviously are not. Might as well remove the profanity filter as well.
 
Hahaha you guys have no clue what offensive is. I spent some time poking around the "spin zone" hahaha. Take a minute and go to a forum called yellowbullet click on the section called "Trash or be Trashed" your heads will pop. I have no clue when people started becoming so weak and thin skinned. We are to a point where the color scheme on a car can cause people so much distress that it has to be banned. The spin zone is what some people need learn how to take some lumps and brush it off instead of running to someone else to handle it for you. 5 minutes of my last family Thanksgiving dinner was more offensive than the spin zone. Harden up people
 
Henning said:
I'm glad they finally clarified there are no rules in SZ, now they should make that clear in the header and remove "the artifact" that says quite clearly that all the rules of the ROC are in effect, which they obviously are not. Might as well remove the profanity filter as well.
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I think it would be better to include a statement that while the rules are not enforced in the SZ, participation there will probably be more worthwhile if people voluntarily comply with them.
 
retailguy said:
Sounds like you need more help. Moderators don't have to be on the MC, you could just recruit volunteers by forum.




Of course this happens, it's the nature of forums. There is no right or wrong answer, but in spite of the fact I think you guys are reasonably fair, there is some truth to the statement that what happens to you does depend on WHO YOU ARE.

You know these people. How often do we read "you should meet them in person, if you did you'd have a different opinion".

But we're not "in person". So, to me, that argument is a red herring.





I've told you this privately, and I'm sure you didn't like it, but you need more help. There is no reason that every post can't be read by a volunteer. Volunteer mods do not have to belong to the MC. This forum is much bigger than it was when you developed the concept.

More Moderator votes would also make action more possible and further it would take the "personalities" out of the mix. That way, the MC could continue to participate and have friends and not have to feel like they are disciplining their friends.

If you don't like the job a particular moderator does, just get rid of them. You're not making a lifetime commitment here.

It looks like you're trying to "keep things as they've always been". I get the nostalgia, but seriously, this forum is way too big to not evolve.
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I think what we need is the Spin Zone version of Jury Duty. Require a neutral spin zoner to whatever butt hurt occurred serve on a jury to fix the issue of the week.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think what we need is the Spin Zone version of Jury Duty. Require a neutral spin zoner to whatever butt hurt occurred serve on a jury to fix the issue of the week.
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I guess I wasn't necessarily talking about the spin zone. I have access, wandered in a time or two, and haven't really been back since.

that forum is worthless.
 
Everskyward said:
In case anyone is wondering, you didn't need to be female to be a Babe. There were plenty of male members.
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My wife thinks I'm kind of hot, so I bet I'd qualify to be a babe... :rofl:
 
JOhnH said:
I'm not quite sure about the tone of your response? Are you lecturing me even after I admitted you were right, and thanked you for it?

But remember, even debates have rules and limits.
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Sorry, I wasn't trying to set a tone rather just use another example of how people who don't like what they choose then complain about it. :rolleyes2:
 
bbridges51 said:
+1 i've been to the SZ and find it mostly a place where idiots disregard the facts and repeat what they've learned on cable. I'd rather get along with all pilots here at POA. We have so much in common that i hate when some want to add politics into the mix. If i had my way, i'd remove SZ from POA.
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Good news! There's a place for you. It's called the "Red Board."
 
retailguy said:
Sounds like you need more help. Moderators don't have to be on the MC, you could just recruit volunteers by forum.




Of course this happens, it's the nature of forums. There is no right or wrong answer, but in spite of the fact I think you guys are reasonably fair, there is some truth to the statement that what happens to you does depend on WHO YOU ARE.

You know these people. How often do we read "you should meet them in person, if you did you'd have a different opinion".

But we're not "in person". So, to me, that argument is a red herring.





I've told you this privately, and I'm sure you didn't like it, but you need more help. There is no reason that every post can't be read by a volunteer. Volunteer mods do not have to belong to the MC. This forum is much bigger than it was when you developed the concept.

More Moderator votes would also make action more possible and further it would take the "personalities" out of the mix. That way, the MC could continue to participate and have friends and not have to feel like they are disciplining their friends.

If you don't like the job a particular moderator does, just get rid of them. You're not making a lifetime commitment here.

It looks like you're trying to "keep things as they've always been". I get the nostalgia, but seriously, this forum is way too big to not evolve.
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I will volunteer to be a mod..........

Aw, never mind... I will just have to ban myself...:D
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think that's necessary Troy. I believe the forum on the website is back but I think most of the Babes keep in contact through a members-only page on Facebook.
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Last I checked the website was still there but the link to the forum was broken. The forum was resurrected for a while, but then went down again and as far as I know, is permanently dead.

This is the first I've heard of a FB page... but then again I was never that active there, and may have missed the announcement.
 
azure said:
Last I checked the website was still there but the link to the forum was broken. The forum was resurrected for a while, but then went down again and as far as I know, is permanently dead.



This is the first I've heard of a FB page... but then again I was never that active there, and may have missed the announcement.
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I don't know if there was ever an announcement. After the board was resurrected I went back a couple times, but there was not much activity. I heard about the FB page because I am connected to some Babes there.
 
Boy Tim, for someone who doesn't like SZ, you sure seem to post a lot about it. I love the self righteous attitudes stated by some here. You are soooo evolved!

If you don't want to deal with SZ, don't go there, nor feel you have to discuss it here. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
retailguy said:
Sounds like you need more help. Moderators don't have to be on the MC, you could just recruit volunteers by forum.

If you don't like the job a particular moderator does, just get rid of them. You're not making a lifetime commitment here.

It looks like you're trying to "keep things as they've always been". I get the nostalgia, but seriously, this forum is way too big to not evolve.
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This. I'm all for SZ being predominantly hands-off, but there are lines that should never be crossed. Calling someone a asshat isn't one of them. Calling someone a Jew-hater is.

Someone said SZ is all in good fun. It's only fun for the bully. Not so much for the recipient.

I can imagine some of the tough calls the mods have. A handful of pilots on here hate Muslims, and they trash them time and again in SZ, which in its own way is what SZ is for. Except Redtail is Muslim. He seems to be a good and decent person, knowledgeable, interesting opinions and he has pretty thick skin. So the hard part is where is the line drawn that the mods should follow?

Regardless, the playground does need more supervision. POA has grown substantially since I've been here. It's been said many times that the mods are busy. So lighten their load/share the burden. I just don't see the down side of adding a couple of new moderators.

But more important, put rules in place. If SZ is truly a free-for-all with no rules, let's say that. If there are rules, POST THEM and enforce them consistently.
 
Anthony said:
Boy Tim, for someone who doesn't like SZ, you sure seem to post a lot about it. I love the self righteous attitudes stated by some here. You are soooo evolved!

If you don't want to deal with SZ, don't go there, nor feel you have to discuss it here. Seems pretty simple to me.
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I don't go there. You apparently missed my point so allow me to restate...

I have no issue whatsoever with the SZ. None. Especially since I don't go there.

What I take issue with is those who continually try to bring the SZ out of the SZ and into the main forum. That is completely uncalled for and you are one who tends to do this.

If one can't leave the SZ in the SZ then I believe they have a problem far bigger than they'll ever solve by participating there.

just sayin'.......
 
Maybe I just miss it, but I don't see much of the SZ spilling into the main forum, especially after the departure of one of the worst offenders (in my opinion). Personally, I create an impenetrable firewall between the SZ and the main forum. Folks I've tussled with in the SZ receive no ire from me outside of that forum, and frankly, that sentiment is returned in my favor by most of the folks I have discussions with over there.

There seems to be plenty of vitriol in the main forum perpetrated by folks who don't visit the SZ, so I am under no illusions that getting rid of the SZ will markedly affect that. But in the grand scheme of internet forums, it really doesn't seem that bad. As un-moderated sub-forums go, the SZ seems awfully docile.
 
timwinters said:
I don't go there. You apparently missed my point so allow me to restate...

I have no issue whatsoever with the SZ. None. Especially since I don't go there.

What I take issue with is those who continually try to bring the SZ out of the SZ and into the main forum. That is completely uncalled for and you are one who tends to do this.

If one can't leave the SZ in the SZ then I believe they have a problem far bigger than they'll ever solve by participating there.

just sayin'.......
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Liberal :D
 
asechrest said:
As un-moderated sub-forums go, the SZ seems awfully docile.
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I agree 100% with this statement. But then again POA rocks. It really does. So I hold the forum and its members to higher standards than other forums.
 
asechrest said:
Maybe I just miss it, but I don't see much of the SZ spilling into the main forum, especially after the departure of one of the worst offenders (in my opinion). Personally, I create an impenetrable firewall between the SZ and the main forum. Folks I've tussled with in the SZ receive no ire from me outside of that forum, and frankly, that sentiment is returned in my favor by most of the folks I have discussions with over there.

There seems to be plenty of vitriol in the main forum perpetrated by folks who don't visit the SZ, so I am under no illusions that getting rid of the SZ will markedly affect that. But in the grand scheme of internet forums, it really doesn't seem that bad. As un-moderated sub-forums go, the SZ seems awfully docile.
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Good points.
 
Gerhardt said:
This. I'm all for SZ being predominantly hands-off, but there are lines that should never be crossed. Calling someone a asshat isn't one of them. Calling someone a Jew-hater is.

Someone said SZ is all in good fun. It's only fun for the bully. Not so much for the recipient.

I can imagine some of the tough calls the mods have. A handful of pilots on here hate Muslims, and they trash them time and again in SZ, which in its own way is what SZ is for. Except Redtail is Muslim. He seems to be a good and decent person, knowledgeable, interesting opinions and he has pretty thick skin. So the hard part is where is the line drawn that the mods should follow?

Regardless, the playground does need more supervision. POA has grown substantially since I've been here. It's been said many times that the mods are busy. So lighten their load/share the burden. I just don't see the down side of adding a couple of new moderators.

But more important, put rules in place. If SZ is truly a free-for-all with no rules, let's say that. If there are rules, POST THEM and enforce them consistently.
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Just curious if anyone else finds it ironically funny that there is a complaint about how calling someone a Jew-hater 'crosses the line', that is then followed immediately by a blanket statement about other people hating Muslims, or if it is just me.

The SZ is tame for an unmoderated forum, and IMO the people who seem to complain the most are in large part the very same folks who dish out the most disrespect, who dismiss the intellect, beliefs and values of others with predictable regularity, and then call the waaaaambulance when they get called on their own character flaws or bogus arguments.

People with thin skin and a lack of tolerance for having their views, well-formed or otherwise, challenged have no business in the SZ. Complaints about how anyone is treated there, including name-calling, is just silly given the stated reason for the forum.

Like asechrest, I work hard to not carry any animosity that might be engendered by the shenanigans in the SZ spill over into the rest of POA -and whenever I feel that is getting difficult I spend less time in the SZ - self-moderation is the key - know thyself.

Truthfully, some people just aren't cut out for unfettered freedom (too easily butthurt to totally unable to control themselves) - but their shortcomings shouldn't be used as an excuse to limit the freedom of those who can better manage themselves.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
Just curious if anyone else finds it ironically funny that there is a complaint about how calling someone a Jew-hater 'crosses the line', that is then followed immediately by a blanket statement about other people hating Muslims, or if it is just me.
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Probably not. The difference is that I didn't say any pilot in particular hates Muslims. And the pilots on here who do not like them aren't a bit shy about saying that they don't like them.


AcroGimp said:
but their shortcomings shouldn't be used as an excuse to limit the freedom of those who can better manage themselves.
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If everyone could better manage themselves this thread wouldn't exist.
 
Gerhardt said:
This. I'm all for SZ being predominantly hands-off, but there are lines that should never be crossed. Calling someone a asshat isn't one of them. Calling someone a Jew-hater is.

Someone said SZ is all in good fun. It's only fun for the bully. Not so much for the recipient.

I can imagine some of the tough calls the mods have. A handful of pilots on here hate Muslims, and they trash them time and again in SZ, which in its own way is what SZ is for. Except Redtail is Muslim. He seems to be a good and decent person, knowledgeable, interesting opinions and he has pretty thick skin. So the hard part is where is the line drawn that the mods should follow?

Regardless, the playground does need more supervision. POA has grown substantially since I've been here. It's been said many times that the mods are busy. So lighten their load/share the burden. I just don't see the down side of adding a couple of new moderators.

But more important, put rules in place. If SZ is truly a free-for-all with no rules, let's say that. If there are rules, POST THEM and enforce them consistently.
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Religion and politics are inexorably linked. If you bring up your religion in any political debate, it's going to get discussed.

We had professional clergy participating in SZ when I bothered to go in there. They weren't complaining to MC about criticism of their religion.

Modern politics has replaced religion for some and has become their religion, too.

Impossible to separate the two, without humans suddenly stopping having actual real shooting wars over religion.

It's the same issue in an unmoderated forum as politics, because religion and politics often one and the same. If you can't handle the fire, don't jump into the frying pan.

Anyone who's looked at human history for even ten minutes can see politics and religion are skipping along merrily hand in hand.

Nobody has to identify themselves as having a particular religion, or engage in that way, if they don't choose very specifically to do so. If you do, expect it to be part of any political discussion. It's going to be anyway, but you don't have to engage on that topic. That's a choice.

If the professional clergy can be gracious about it, anyone can.
 
Gerhardt said:
Probably not. The difference is that I didn't say any pilot in particular hates Muslims. And the pilots on here who do not like them aren't a bit shy about saying that they don't like them.
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I wonder what underlying facts or modern actions make for the difference in attitude between the muslims and the jews?
 
docmirror said:
I wonder what underlying facts or modern actions make for the difference in attitude between the muslims and the jews?
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Interesting question, but the discussion almost certainly belongs in spin zone :)
 
denverpilot said:
Modern politics has replaced religion for some and has become their religion, too.

Impossible to separate the two, without humans suddenly stopping having actual real shooting wars over religion.

It's the same issue in an unmoderated forum as politics, because religion and politics often one and the same. If you can't handle the fire, don't jump into the frying pan.
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Yes, it would be nice if jumping into the frying pan were actually an option. I would love to see the rules clarified to remove political and religious BS from tag lines in the open forums. Images and tag lines espousing a religious or political allegiance in the open forums is no more appropriate than threads of those topics in the open forums. Quoting other PoA members in an unflattering light in your tag is also a childish move and doesn't help to create a nice climate.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I think what we need is the Spin Zone version of Jury Duty. Require a neutral spin zoner to whatever butt hurt occurred serve on a jury to fix the issue of the week.
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How about setting up the SZ in the image of "Survivor". We all get a chance to vote someone off the Island.
 
JOhnH said:
How about setting up the SZ in the image of "Survivor". We all get a chance to vote someone off the Island.
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Nah the sz is too one sided.
Do that and you'd eliminate all the members that use logic and reasoning right away :)
 
JOhnH said:
How about setting up the SZ in the image of "Survivor". We all get a chance to vote someone off the Island.
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jpXvqER.jpg
 
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