Amy Alkon writes about her TSA experience....

flyingcheesehead said:
I think very few pilots carry both, and no certificated pilot is required to carry both. SP's need the logbook but not the medical, and everyone else needs the medical but not the logbook.

The only people required to carry both medical and logbook are non-LSA student pilots, I think...
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Rec Pilots need to carry endorsements with them for certain flights. I think the sport pilot regs don't require the actual logbook, but DO require that the SP can show where they've been endorsed for the LSA equivalent of category and class of the airplane they're flying, and any other required endorsements.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
and everyone else needs the medical but not the logbook.
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Picking a nit. PP or "higher" does not need the medical if they are operating under the SP rules.

That's where it gets entertaining.

How would a ramp checking person know if I am actually operating under SP rules? I can claim to not have a medical, and they can look to see how many seats the aircraft has. The "POH" for my homebuilt (largely the result of someone's imagination) lists the stall speed and max gross but not the speed at maximum continuous power at sea level (or however that part of the rule works). Do they demand a flight test? Call the original "manufacturer"? I believe that he is deceased. Just take my word for it? Even for regular factory built stuff that speed won't be listed in pre-LSA rules aircraft (Cubs, Champs, T-craft, etc. etc. etc.)
 
Well for anything other than a factory airplane "grandfathered" into the LSA category, the airplane should have an S-LSA or E-LSA airworthiness certificate, no?
 
TMetzinger said:
Well for anything other than a factory airplane "grandfathered" into the LSA category, the airplane should have an S-LSA or E-LSA airworthiness certificate, no?
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No.

Mine, for example, is an Experimental -Amateur Built (and had to comply to the so called 51% rule). E-LSA only applies if it is the kit version of an S-LSA (does not have to comply with the 51% rule).

And, one could (but probably wouldn't) still build a normal catagory aircraft that fits under the rules for SP.

The rules under which the aircraft was issued an airworthiness certificate are not the rules under which it can be flown.

Kinda like logging vs acting PIC

Not that Amy Alkon would know that. :wink2:
 
wsuffa said:
The scanners are still in place and in use at many (most?) airports. Start your trip in a larger airport, like PIT, PHL, BWI, LAX, etc and you'll get volunteered to go through them.
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Fortunately, it's rare that I have to fly commercial. When I do, it's usually out of Williamsport. I'm fortunate in that regard.

But the fact that I'm not continuing to hear clamoring and they're still in place proves my point. People will just take the path of least resistance and accept it.
 
kevin7500 said:
Anyone that is shocked that the portion of a pat down involving the inner leg stops at the crotch is very naive. Do people think they are going to stop at the knee?
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There's a difference between checking the inner leg/crotch and sticking your hand inside a woman's vagina.

A big difference.

If people don't like the systems and controls that they asked their government for, stay out of airports. TSA is too big and involves too much money at this point for it to ever go away. This is the new normal. This is the price of security that we now have to pay.
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What great security it gives us too, right?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
No.

Mine, for example, is an Experimental -Amateur Built (and had to comply to the so called 51% rule). E-LSA only applies if it is the kit version of an S-LSA (does not have to comply with the 51% rule).

And, one could (but probably wouldn't) still build a normal catagory aircraft that fits under the rules for SP.

The rules under which the aircraft was issued an airworthiness certificate are not the rules under which it can be flown.

Kinda like logging vs acting PIC

Not that Amy Alkon would know that. :wink2:
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Gotcha. The question is - "how can a pilot prove that the airplane he's operating is an LSA when it doesn't have an LSA airworthiness certificate because it's an experimental - amateur built or a factory-built aircraft such as a piper cub"?

I think there's published guidance for the factory-built airplanes, but the experimental part is clear as mud to me.
 
Last Friday morning I went through security at RIC. Of course I was chosen for the new scanners, as I have been every time I go through RIC. They send nearly everyone through those scanners. I opted out, I don't think they are safe, and I just don't like them. So I got another pat down, this time the most invasive. The woman started by pulling my hair, I can only imagine what she thought I might be hiding on my scalp. Then she pushed down my back harshly, over my butt, up into my crotch. She pulled around the waistband of my pants so roughly I almost fell over. Then she groped and fondled my boobs, making sure to run her hands all over and under them. I would have thought she was checking if they were real or not. Then down again to my crotch. And the bottoms of my pants she pulled very roughly, nearly pulling me down again. A pat down is one thing, but this was like a vengeful act to make me as uncomfortable as possible, while trying to pull me off balance and make me fall over. And this was 6:30 am, a delightful way to start my day. I did nothing to make a scene, but that pat down was completely uncalled for, and did nothing for security.
 
One misconception about LSA pilots...they need medicals just like the rest of us. Their medical is their DL however.
 
SkyHog said:
There's a difference between checking the inner leg/crotch and sticking your hand inside a woman's vagina.

A big difference.
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Considering that she admits to exagerating her reaction during the pat down I don't have any reason to believe that she hasn't exagerated the details. I don't recall reading about a hand inside a vagina and I think I would have remember reading "the TSA fisted me".

SkyHog said:
What great security it gives us too, right?
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Obviously. How many planes have crashed into skyscrapes since 9/11? :ihih:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
But the fact that I'm not continuing to hear clamoring and they're still in place proves my point. People will just take the path of least resistance and accept it.
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I was taught to "pick your battles". This was in the context of work, but it could apply to life. You're absolutely right that most people, and I include myself in that group, follow the path of least resistance because it's easier.
 
bluee said:
Last Friday morning I went through security at RIC. Of course I was chosen for the new scanners, as I have been every time I go through RIC. They send nearly everyone through those scanners. I opted out, I don't think they are safe, and I just don't like them. So I got another pat down, this time the most invasive. The woman started by pulling my hair, I can only imagine what she thought I might be hiding on my scalp. Then she pushed down my back harshly, over my butt, up into my crotch. She pulled around the waistband of my pants so roughly I almost fell over. Then she groped and fondled my boobs, making sure to run her hands all over and under them. I would have thought she was checking if they were real or not. Then down again to my crotch. And the bottoms of my pants she pulled very roughly, nearly pulling me down again. A pat down is one thing, but this was like a vengeful act to make me as uncomfortable as possible, while trying to pull me off balance and make me fall over. And this was 6:30 am, a delightful way to start my day. I did nothing to make a scene, but that pat down was completely uncalled for, and did nothing for security.
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It is retaliation for you not going through the electronic strip-search, and it is intended to make you choose the strip-search machine next time. I heard a TSA screener telling someone who opted out at IAD the following: "Well, you should remember this for next time and it will encourage you to go through the scanner instead".
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"4.) A pilot must have in their possession - or readily available in the aircraft a valid Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) medical certificate.
5.) A pilot must have in their possession or readily accessible in the aircraft their pilot their pilot Logbook.'

I carry neither of these. (PP flying under SP rules)
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Back in the day, which was two or three years ago when I was working as an A&P, I used to fly Cessnas back and forth between Ames and Ankeny every once in a while. It is about a twenty minute flight on the hobbs, probably ten in the air. I would also fly back and forth to Boone almost every week, a shorter flight than the one to Ankeny. I never carried anything. Not even my DL. I had an old set of headphones in my toolbox, and that was about all I took. I know that is a huge violation to some, but to tell you the truth, it was never an issue. If I was going to fly off to some airport far enough away that I actually had to navigate to get there, I took my pilot purse with all my stuff, but if I could see where I was going from the pattern, I just went.
 
Everskyward said:
I was taught to "pick your battles". This was in the context of work, but it could apply to life. You're absolutely right that most people, and I include myself in that group, follow the path of least resistance because it's easier.
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I pick my battles also, and similarly take the path of least resistance. That said, I commend those who don't regarding these issues.
 
I asked if I could go through the body scanner in Dallas when we were going through customs coming back from Mexico in Febrauary. I politely asked and was politely told no. I just wanted to see what all the hub bub was about. I've yet to have to go through one, but given the chance I'm going to give it a try. What can it hurt?
 
It would be interesting to carry a dosimeter thru the scanner ... but then, rules would prohibit that, I'm sure.
 
gkainz said:
It would be interesting to carry a dosimeter thru the scanner ... but then, rules would prohibit that, I'm sure.
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No metal, no wallet, no watch, no belt, nothing in the pockets. So, yeah, I'd anticipate a dosimeter wouldn't be allowed.
 
TMetzinger said:
Don't they need an endorsement for each X/C flight beyond a certain distance?
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Got me. I just know the Recreational Pilot certificate was a flop, and they've given out fewer than a thousand, maybe fewer than a hundred.
 
bluee said:
but that pat down was completely uncalled for, and did nothing for security.
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I won't comment on whether it was called for, but one thing that was made clear when I went through pat-down training in the military was that if the pat-down doesn't make the person uncomfortable, then it does nothing for security.

To clarify, I am not talking about making the person uncomfortable out of spite, it is a matter of you have to get close and personal if you are actually going to find anything.

A pat-down that is not uncomfortable is simply not effective.
 
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wsuffa said:
I heard a TSA screener telling someone who opted out at IAD the following: "Well, you should remember this for next time and it will encourage you to go through the scanner instead".
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Unfortunately, THAT is one of the biggest differences between the TSA and respectable LEOs.
 
Bob Noel said:
No metal, no wallet, no watch, no belt, nothing in the pockets. So, yeah, I'd anticipate a dosimeter wouldn't be allowed.
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You could get it through, but then would need to remove it or show it to the TSA agent. That may or may not result in a re-scan. Before entering with the dosimeter be prepared to lie when they keep asking you, "do you have EVERYTHING" out of your pockets?"

I say this because I left a piece of paper in my back pocket. They kept asking me if I had anything and I kept checking and saying "no". I did not think I was lying because I kept running my hands across my pockets did not feel anything. I went through. They said, "you have something in your back pocket". I checked and removed the paper. I don't recall if they rescanned me or patted me down after I showed it or not. . . .

So, based on that experience, I think you could get a dosimeter through. When you remove it, they will probably just toss it with your stuff as they re-scan you or pat you down.
 
steingar said:
Got me. I just know the Recreational Pilot certificate was a flop, and they've given out fewer than a thousand, maybe fewer than a hundred.
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Last I checked, there were somewhere north of 300 Recreational pilots in the database... But that does NOT mean that the've "given out fewer than a thousand," it just means that there are less than a thousand *currently* at that level. (Example: I am not a private pilot - I'm a commercial pilot. That doesn't mean I never had my Private...)

Sporty's, for example, was (is?) putting ALL of the students in their flight school through the Recreational Pilot program first, and then having them finish up the Private. Good idea, if you ask me - It lets the students share the joy of flight with a friend or family member before they're completely done with the Private, which can help keep them motivated.

So, they've probably given out more than a thousand - It's just that many of those have moved on to Private or higher and are no longer listed as Recreational pilots.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Last I checked, there were somewhere north of 300 Recreational pilots in the database... But that does NOT mean that the've "given out fewer than a thousand," it just means that there are less than a thousand *currently* at that level. (Example: I am not a private pilot - I'm a commercial pilot. That doesn't mean I never had my Private...)

Sporty's, for example, was (is?) putting ALL of the students in their flight school through the Recreational Pilot program first, and then having them finish up the Private. Good idea, if you ask me - It lets the students share the joy of flight with a friend or family member before they're completely done with the Private, which can help keep them motivated.

So, they've probably given out more than a thousand - It's just that many of those have moved on to Private or higher and are no longer listed as Recreational pilots.
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A quick way to revive the RP program would be to authorize the Driver's License medical for RP privileges.
 
Yeah, with a driver's license medical (like the SP) the Recreational Pilot program could have been a good thing. Still might. I'd have an easier time seeing the FAA give up the 3rd class medical for the recreational than the private.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, with a driver's license medical (like the SP) the Recreational Pilot program could have been a good thing. Still might. I'd have an easier time seeing the FAA give up the 3rd class medical for the recreational than the private.
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And that would fulfil the promise of the SP program...180hp, 4 seats (only one passenger). 150s, 172s, Cherokees, Archers all suddenly flyable by PPs without an expired medical. Cheap, well established airframes with a renewed demand for flying them.
 
wsuffa said:
It is retaliation for you not going through the electronic strip-search, and it is intended to make you choose the strip-search machine next time. I heard a TSA screener telling someone who opted out at IAD the following: "Well, you should remember this for next time and it will encourage you to go through the scanner instead".
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I believe you have hit the point of the problem with the TSA, DHS, IRS, FBI, FAA, NSA, and many other agencies. they are programming Americans to submit to their whims, and in doing so, give away their/our constitutional guarantees, for no real purpose, other than government control over more things.

Every time some well meaning idiot says, types, or otherwise communicates a message like, "If you aren't doing anything WRONG, why would you care if your home / car / person / children is/are searched, without probable cause, without a search warrant, or without any legal standing to do so?

The answer is obvious, If you don't you will lose the ability to say no at a later date. And it is almost that date, now.
 
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kevin7500 said:
If people don't like the systems and controls that they asked their government for, stay out of airports. TSA is too big and involves too much money at this point for it to ever go away. This is the new normal. This is the price of security that we now have to pay.
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Bull****. Because it's not security. It's theatre.
 
For the sake of all this security theater crap why aren't we putting more air marshals aboard? Go ahead and try somethin stupid...you WILL get caught. Just my $0.02
 
airbornejohnny said:
For the sake of all this security theater crap why aren't we putting more air marshals aboard? Go ahead and try somethin stupid...you WILL get caught. Just my $0.02
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Because it costs a lot more to train (and pay) an FAM then it does for a TSA goon.

Plus the airline lobbyists would start putting pressure on the politicians if they were giving up too many revenue seats to FAMs.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Because it costs a lot more to train (and pay) an FAM then it does for a TSA goon.
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So even if it's 5x the cost, divide the number of TSA dolts by five and that's a lot of FAMs.

Fearless Tower said:
Plus the airline lobbyists would start putting pressure on the politicians if they were giving up too many revenue seats to FAMs.
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!!
 
Fearless Tower said:
Plus the airline lobbyists would start putting pressure on the politicians if they were giving up too many revenue seats to FAMs.
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Only true where the flight load is 100% and the airlines have to bump folks.
 
denverpilot said:
Which is their goal for every flight unless it's written off as a money-loser to reposition an aircraft.
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That may be their goal, but the average load factor is around 80%, and anything much above that causes operational problems, especially if there are cancellations.
 
The point is, the system -- as they envision it in their "best" plan -- isn't workable or sustainable.

And there's a distinct lack of a better plan, especially as population growth catches up behind the wave of Boomers stopping travel towards the time I retire.

ADS-B isn't even close. Never will be. It'll see a decade of use, never make any significant safety or efficiency gains, and will disappear.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Because it costs a lot more to train (and pay) an FAM then it does for a TSA goon.

Plus the airline lobbyists would start putting pressure on the politicians if they were giving up too many revenue seats to FAMs.
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I know what you're saying, but...
They don't annoy everyone in the airport, excepts the ones that try something stupid
They don't cause cancer
They don't require cancer-causing equipment to perform their duties
They aren't readily recognizable (they blend in) which I'd think could help people relax.

I don't know any of the numbers, but Training more FAM's and doing away with the high-profile screening theater BS seems more favorable. LE's are expected to have a higher standard of professionalism than the schmucks TSA has patting people down at the terminal. Personally, FWIW, I'd also prefer the agents sworn to perform their duties actually WANT the job they have, and ENJOY doing it. Some of the screeners just don't seem to have that groove.
 
airbornejohnny said:
I don't know any of the numbers, but Training more FAM's and doing away with the high-profile screening theater BS seems more favorable. LE's are expected to have a higher standard of professionalism than the schmucks TSA has patting people down at the terminal.
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The problem is, where are you going to find several thousand (at a minimum) good people to train to be FAM's? I think the problem also lies in that it's hard to find good people. Would you take the people now working at the TSA and train them to be FAM's? I sure hope not! :hairraisi
 
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