American Workers [NA]

[Brian Austin]

I disagree with your "premium pay" logic, Robert. You are offering to pay 125% of the going wage, but expect more than a 125% work effort. Doesn't sound like a wage premium to me.

And it only works in an environment where there is a labor glut and loyal customers. IT labor is starting to bounce back, although it will never be back at the inflated levels of the dot-bomb era. As payrolls increase to compete for workers, this philosophy isn't going to work so well.

 

[gkainz]

Regarding the 'go to bat' you betcha.

great examples to support the above snipped...commendable, Robert. I like your examples of "thinking outside the box" and taking immediate actions to reward superior performance, especially when you can apply it to an immediate need. Well done! Big businesses have, by and large, atrophied to the point that nobody has the insight or believe they have the lattitude to execute these kinds of rewards.

Wanna know what I think is interesting? Only 1 person...only Andrew...said, "Yes. I work hard." (paraphrasing)..."I trade my youth for a secure future." Correct me if I'm wrong, but every other comment that fits in the realm of 'I work hard' or 'I want a life' has been the 'I want a life' version.

BTDT... I bought into the "trade my youth for a secure future" song and dance years ago when my past employer, the now second largest software company in the world was lean, mean and hungry. What I have to show for it, by and large, is a large stack of marriage counselling bills and a relationship with a 24 year old daughter that has only in the last couple of years begun to heal. Fortunately, I woke up and made some significant changes in my life in time to develop the kind of relationships I really wanted with my two sons, now 18 and 12, and my wife as well.

 

[RobertGerace]

This is, in fact, a premimum. And it does work well.

Computer professionals are too busy and the work is too intense to get 2 jobs. Also, if one were to commute between two jobs there would be hugh inefficiencies. The stress of trying to 'serve two masters' and the difficulty of finding reliable, consistent programming work that people can wait until after hours to have a programmer on site (for 10 to 20 hours per week) all must be figured in.

The average programmer, wanting to make an additional $25,000 per year...even if he went hourly at $100 per hour needs 4.8 hours of work per week. However, how long would it take him to find that work? How much of that time would need to be during regular business hours? What about people who didn't pay? How can you find that many little jobs?

How many 5 hour per week $100 per hour programming jobs do you know of?

How many programming jobs are only development? ESPECIALLY little shops and little jobs...require support.

Of course, there is www.rentacoder.com, but, ooops! there you go again...competing world wide...you will be darn lucky to reliably and consistently earn $100 per hour...and you just plain are not going to do it every single week.

So, working for me takes all the guess work out. You get paid. You get paid every week. You don't have to market yourself.

But, guess what? Not having to do all that stuff means you don't get to get paid 150% of your salary for the 150% of the hours.

My goodness, I just don't understand the philosophy of the American worker! This goes right back to my point.

If you do it for yourself, you're entitled to 100% of the fruits of your labor. But most people can't do it for themselves...they want the 150% pay...but they have no idea how to connect all the dots to do it. Most people in this world have only one realistic choice...earn 100% and deal with it.

I give people the choice of making 125%. Yes, I take 25% for making the other 25% easy for them. It's called a win-win. To do as you suggest would be a win-lose.

BTW, of the 25% I make on that, most of it gets plowed right back into the company to create new jobs. That's called a win-win-win.

If nothing else, today has solidified my opinion: There was a time in America when people were so happy to have a job that they would work extra just to keep it. The good companies rewarded employees for that and grew more successful. The bad companies took advantage of the employees went out of business.

Over the last 60 to 80 years, Americans have had it pretty good. Starting in the 70's many people found out that if they could figure out what "MOV B,A" means, they could make $100,000 per year in today's dollars.

Many grew lazy and aloof and decided that they didn't have to work hard...just be smart and use their above average intellegence. By 1996 there were people at the Coca-Cola company who were at the junior-executive level with total compensation over $130,000 per year...working six hours per day, and receiving stock options because they could figure out what was wrong with, "if (c = 3)" in a c++ program.

About that time, India figured out that they could teach people the difference in (c = 3) and (c == 3) and send them here and these people could come to America and make $60,000 a year and then go back to India and live like a king!

Right there is a no brainer for American Business. Why not get the same thing for half price?

But there was another storm brewing. These Indians, and Chinese, and Korean, etc. people were so thrilled to be here and working, and so grateful, that they decided to work even harder. Now the American boss is faced with the guy from China working 12 hour days, earning 60,000...sitting right next to the guy from Dallas...working 7.7 hour days, making over $100k.

Hmmm...hard decision what he wants when it's time to hire the next programmer....

By the way, the American guy has an attitude. No @#$% boss is going to run my life...I'll do what I want when I want. If I have to go the the doctor, I'll schedule it during working hours because this $%&^ job isn't going to cut in to my personal life. He also seems to get sick a lot. He's out 3 times in his first three months. In fact, he was sick his second day after becoming an employee (and therefore paid for sick leave). He wants vacation before he's even been working for 3 months. Oh yeah, he has a closing on his new house on Friday...he will be out half the day (which inevitably turns in to all day as he calls from his cell phone and says he can't make it back.) He seems to always be sick on a Friday or Monday. Gee, that sure is weird. Also his dentist appointements seem to be on Friday afternoon...1pm...but he gets held up and can't make it back to work.

Meanwhile, the guy from China never misses a single hour of work in a year. Not one sick day...not one appointment. He is on time every day and works late every night. There isn't anything else to say, or rant, about. When he is supposed to be there he is. Even when he could leave, he is most often working late.

Who would you hire?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You're a hard man, Bob, but your fair.

This is, in fact, a premimum. And it does work well.

Computer professionals are too busy and the work is too intense to get 2 jobs. Also, if one were to commute between two jobs there would be hugh inefficiencies. The stress of trying to 'serve two masters' and the difficulty of finding reliable, consistent programming work that people can wait until after hours to have a programmer on site (for 10 to 20 hours per week) all must be figured in.

The average programmer, wanting to make an additional $25,000 per year...even if he went hourly at $100 per hour needs 4.8 hours of work per week. However, how long would it take him to find that work? How much of that time would need to be during regular business hours? What about people who didn't pay? How can you find that many little jobs?

How many 5 hour per week $100 per hour programming jobs do you know of?

How many programming jobs are only development? ESPECIALLY little shops and little jobs...require support.

Of course, there is www.rentacoder.com, but, ooops! there you go again...competing world wide...you will be darn lucky to reliably and consistently earn $100 per hour...and you just plain are not going to do it every single week.

So, working for me takes all the guess work out. You get paid. You get paid every week. You don't have to market yourself.

But, guess what? Not having to do all that stuff means you don't get to get paid 150% of your salary for the 150% of the hours.

My goodness, I just don't understand the philosophy of the American worker! This goes right back to my point.

If you do it for yourself, you're entitled to 100% of the fruits of your labor. But most people can't do it for themselves...they want the 150% pay...but they have no idea how to connect all the dots to do it. Most people in this world have only one realistic choice...earn 100% and deal with it.

I give people the choice of making 125%. Yes, I take 25% for making the other 25% easy for them. It's called a win-win. To do as you suggest would be a win-lose.

BTW, of the 25% I make on that, most of it gets plowed right back into the company to create new jobs. That's called a win-win-win.

If nothing else, today has solidified my opinion: There was a time in America when people were so happy to have a job that they would work extra just to keep it. The good companies rewarded employees for that and grew more successful. The bad companies took advantage of the employees went out of business.

Over the last 60 to 80 years, Americans have had it pretty good. Starting in the 70's many people found out that if they could figure out what "MOV B,A" means, they could make $100,000 per year in today's dollars.

Many grew lazy and aloof and decided that they didn't have to work hard...just be smart and use their above average intellegence. By 1996 there were people at the Coca-Cola company who were at the junior-executive level with total compensation over $130,000 per year...working six hours per day, and receiving stock options because they could figure out what was wrong with, "if (c = 3)" in a c++ program.

About that time, India figured out that they could teach people the difference in (c = 3) and (c == 3) and send them here and these people could come to America and make $60,000 a year and then go back to India and live like a king!

Right there is a no brainer for American Business. Why not get the same thing for half price?

But there was another storm brewing. These Indians, and Chinese, and Korean, etc. people were so thrilled to be here and working, and so grateful, that they decided to work even harder. Now the American boss is faced with the guy from China working 12 hour days, earning 60,000...sitting right next to the guy from Dallas...working 7.7 hour days, making over $100k.

Hmmm...hard decision what he wants when it's time to hire the next programmer....

By the way, the American guy has an attitude. No @#$% boss is going to run my life...I'll do what I want when I want. If I have to go the the doctor, I'll schedule it during working hours because this $%&^ job isn't going to cut in to my personal life. He also seems to get sick a lot. He's out 3 times in his first three months. In fact, he was sick his second day after becoming an employee (and therefore paid for sick leave). He wants vacation before he's even been working for 3 months. Oh yeah, he has a closing on his new house on Friday...he will be out half the day (which inevitably turns in to all day as he calls from his cell phone and says he can't make it back.) He seems to always be sick on a Friday or Monday. Gee, that sure is weird. Also his dentist appointements seem to be on Friday afternoon...1pm...but he gets held up and can't make it back to work.

Meanwhile, the guy from China never misses a single hour of work in a year. Not one sick day...not one appointment. He is on time every day and works late every night. There isn't anything else to say, or rant, about. When he is supposed to be there he is. Even when he could leave, he is most often working late.

Who would you hire?

 

[Alan]

Alan, those are great examples of irresponsible employees.....

UI should NOT apply in that circumstance. (heck, the UI up there must be pretty good if it's more money than that former employee could make elsewhere)

FWIW, we protested the UI and won (the employee didn't get paid).

I'm pretty sure that the UI was just something to help tide them over (this is a two income, no kids, 60 Y.O. couple) until something sweet falls in their lap. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[Henning]

I agree. There is no reason to expect an employer to have to pay someone to find a job elsewhere. Some personal 'surfing' is almost to be expected nowadays. After all, we're all here, right now, during the workday. With the exception of Joe, who I think works nights, I suspect we're all in the office as I type this.

Not me but then, I'm self employed. Wait! That means I'm stealing from myself...I must be severly punished....

 

[RobertGerace]

Dave,

Unfortunately, employees make you hard. I've swallowed every hard luck story in the book about why people can't do their jobs. All I ever received for it was airplane after airplane that I could have paid cash for...down the tubes...lost forever.

It taught me a valuable lesson on the 'but you're fair' side. When you do find good people (American, Martin, or Plutonian) keep them happy. For some, 125% isn't enough. I mentor several people on real estate investments. I'm sure they think that is a valuable part of their compensation.

The flip side of that coin is, people only get one chance to screw up when they work for me.

Ray Crock, in his book Grinding it Out wrote a whole chapter on "It's lonely at the top." IIRC. He was right -- as evidenced by today's activity.

Anyway, it's back to work for me. I've spent too much time posting...I need to finish up some work.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Dave,

Unfortunately, employees make you hard. I've swallowed every hard luck story in the book about why people can't do their jobs. All I ever received for it was airplane after airplane that I could have paid cash for...down the tubes...lost forever.

It taught me a valuable lesson on the 'but you're fair' side. When you do find good people (American, Martin, or Plutonian) keep them happy. For some, 125% isn't enough. I mentor several people on real estate investments. I'm sure they think that is a valuable part of their compensation.

The flip side of that coin is, people only get one chance to screw up when they work for me.

Ray Crock, in his book Grinding it Out wrote a whole chapter on "It's lonely at the top." IIRC. He was right -- as evidenced by today's activity.

Anyway, it's back to work for me. I've spent too much time posting...I need to finish up some work.

"Unfortunately, employees make you hard. I've swallowed every hard luck story in the book about why people can't do their jobs. All I ever received for it was airplane after airplane that I could have paid cash for...down the tubes...lost forever."

I hear that one...
Wrote one chapter in my early flight manuscripts entitled "Paper Centurion".
By now I don't even want to think what model it has become !

 

[wsuffa]

Wanna know what I think is interesting? Only 1 person...only Andrew...said,

Yes. I work hard. (paraphrasing)...I trade my youth for a secure future. Correct me if I'm wrong, but every other comment that fits in the realm of 'I work hard' or 'I want a life' has been the 'I want a life' version.

That's fine. There is no universal right or wrong here. There is only 'right' for each person involved...

Actually, Bob, you kinda omitted my background (then again, my focus was on the UI situation, not US vs foreign workers).

I work hard for the future, and continue to do so. I've traded a lot for the the future, and my personal life reflects that (no, I'm not going into details on a public forum). Someday, offline, I'd be willing to share.

There are some jobs I could do today, but I choose not to (the been there, done that, dealt with abusive clients/customers syndrome). I've spent more time developing experiences and reputations than immediate gratification. I'd rather start/build a business. Reputation to the customer is critical.... and employees I hire have to help me get there. Do I make them have skin in the game? You bet!

Right now, I'm selling knowledge, experience, and ability.

My primary client right now may lead to a situation that can transition into an executive role once the business gets funded. I chose (my choice) an initial client relationship rather than a partnership for a number of reasons that are confidential but let's just say it's like your probation period. I'll chose to continue with that or not based on my expectation of whether that business has what it takes to succeed. I have no intention of going out in any way but on top. And my compensation is based directly on whether or not I am successful at the goal (it's not a salary).

I expect people - including me - to compensate & be compensated based on accomplishments, not longevity.

I think we're on the same general wavelength, though we may disagree on some of the details. We are in different industries, so I'd expect different perspectives.

BTW, I've run across some foreign workers in my time that I'd rank as far worse than Americans in terms of productivity & attitude. I guess it's a matter of experiences and attitudes.

 

[Brian Austin]

By the way, the American guy has an attitude. No @#$% boss is going to run my life...I'll do what I want when I want. If I have to go the the doctor, I'll schedule it during working hours because this $%&^ job isn't going to cut in to my personal life. He also seems to get sick a lot. He's out 3 times in his first three months. In fact, he was sick his second day after becoming an employee (and therefore paid for sick leave). He wants vacation before he's even been working for 3 months. Oh yeah, he has a closing on his new house on Friday...he will be out half the day (which inevitably turns in to all day as he calls from his cell phone and says he can't make it back.) He seems to always be sick on a Friday or Monday. Gee, that sure is weird. Also his dentist appointements seem to be on Friday afternoon...1pm...but he gets held up and can't make it back to work.

Meanwhile, the guy from China never misses a single hour of work in a year. Not one sick day...not one appointment. He is on time every day and works late every night. There isn't anything else to say, or rant, about. When he is supposed to be there he is. Even when he could leave, he is most often working late.

I love this one.

You get upset because we schedule appointment to keep us healthy with doctors who only have office hours during your longer than average days and WE'RE the bad guys? The long term health of your valuable employees should be a concern, I'd think, from your attitude.

At the same time, you say you have "flex hours" and yet it's not so flexible after all. I have yet to call in sick in four or five years of working here. Even when I'm home on PTO/vacation days (ooo, probably shouldn't be doing that, either, huh?), I still check in via e-mail and answer all cellphone calls. My boss pays me for performance not attendance.

I can't wait until five to ten years from now when your business model starts fizzling. It's already starting with the Mexican illegals here in AZ. They've become too good for some of the jobs at the wages, even premiums, they're offered. As the American lifestyle becomes a part of the Indian/Chinese lifestyle (which has already started), the whole game changes.

 

[astanley]

One note - Many people think that I don't have enough of a life. While at my young age, I'm not out every night partying or doing everything I could be doing, I have a very active extra-corporate affair

I ride my mountain bike 2 times a week with my best friend, get out with my fiancee on weekends, smoke up some pork shoulders, brew a batch of beer, go visit family, spend time with the friends, enjoy a beer while watching the Sox, or go and get a massage on a weekend if I feel like it. Yes, I don't have time to fly right now - but that is changing, thanks to some hard work on some other fronts.

I don't have it all, I don't have a lot of free time, but I maximize every moment I have.

I live life by this mantra -

"In a fall from a burning tower / what would you do with just one more hour? Live that hour out every day / you'll live much better that way!"
Pennywise, "Date With Destiny"

I don't desire money, power, or control. I want to be successful - to look back and know that I did all I could, worked as hard as I could, and made it to a place that made me happy. Success is only measured internally, and that is what I'm going to strive for.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[poadeleted3]

I love this one.

You get upset because we schedule appointment to keep us healthy with doctors who only have office hours during your longer than average days and WE'RE the bad guys? The long term health of your valuable employees should be a concern, I'd think, from your attitude.

snip.

Why would employee health be an issue of a boss with this attitude? A sick employee isn't putting money in his pocket... just dump 'em and plug another drone in.

 

[Brian Austin]

I don't desire money, power, or control. I want to be successful - to look back and know that I did all I could, worked as hard as I could, and made it to a place that made me happy. Success is only measured internally, and that is what I'm going to strive for.

I'd change one thing: worked as hard as I wanted...not could.

I'm more than capable of putting in 90 hour weeks for over a year. I've done it and could do it again. If nothing else, I'd shed a few pounds. Always seems to happen.

But I don't want to. I don't seek jobs that EXPECT me to do that then whine because I don't want to, either.

Whether Robert realizes it or not, he's still lumping "American workers" into the lazy category, simply because some of us have chosen personal lives over financial servitude. That's kind of sad, really, since the whole idea of America seemed to be each person making his/her own success based on their own criteria instead of someone else's.

But maybe I've got it wrong...

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I give people the choice of making 125%. Yes, I take 25% for making the other 25% easy for them. It's called a win-win. To do as you suggest would be a win-lose.

Bob,

I'm not clear on an important detail here, and please say so if I'm interpretting this incorrectly. It sounds (just based on what I'm reading) that you pretty much are expecting ~150% performance (or at least something above 125%) for 125% pay. I followed your reasoning for taking your fair cut, and on the surface it makes sense.

While this arrangement may appear to work in the short term, I think you could well be setting yourself up for a mass-exodus at some undetermined point in the future. I work in the engineering-consulting business, and this kind of spin-off company happens all the time in my industry. A group of solid employees, who over the years have built up their own client relationships independent of their management, decides there are better opportunities to be had by striking out on their own. The departing employees not only take out the meat of your workforce, but over the next year, you'll see quite a few of your clients follow them. They can take your clients because all the client sees is 1) the same employee doing the work, and 2) often a lower bill, because at least in the short term, the new company will do what it has to win the client, and will still make good money because you will no longer be getting your cut. What you'll be left with is your H-1 employees, who are basically legally tied to you, but even that isn't a guarantee, because there is talk in Washington about possibly changing H-1's so they're not as tightly tied to a specific employer.

Do you have a large percentage of employees who just work a good, reliable 40, get paid a fair salary for their 40, and are satisfied that they have a good life outside work? Or, are the majority of your employees 60-hour types who are real go-getters? These go-getters are the ones you need to be worried about, because even though you think they won't bail on you, if they do, you are much, much worse off than when Mr. 40 goes looking for a change of scenery, 'cause they'll take your clients.

Jeff

 

[Silicon Rallye]

This is not true for a company with managers and bosses the employees respect.

That used to be the case in the large corporations. When I started with IBM (in 1963) it was as you state; when I retired in 1993 it definitely was NOT.

 

[poadeleted3]

That used to be the case in the large corporations. When I started with IBM (in 1963) it was as you state; when I retired in 1993 it definitely was NOT.

Are there any large corporations that respect their workers, and therefore who's workers respect their bosses? I doubt it. American bosses are too eager to send jobs overseas, or staff them with immigrants who's work visas make them essentially well paid slaves. American workers, unwilling to tolerate such people, despise those same bosses, work is a battlefield of mutual disgust, and now many of us seek out foreign goods, such as my Hyundai and Toyota cars, instead of American goods made by foreigners, benefitting only a few rich American bosses.

 

[Brian Austin]

Do you have a large percentage of employees who just work a good, reliable 40, get paid a fair salary for their 40, and are satisfied that they have a good life outside work? Or, are the majority of your employees 60-hour types who are real go-getters? These go-getters are the ones you need to be worried about, because even though you think they won't bail on you, if they do, you are much, much worse off than when Mr. 40 goes looking for a change of scenery, 'cause they'll take your clients.

Jeff

Actually, I'd be more worried about the guys following the buck wandering off to the highest bidder. I've been offered a LOT more than I'm currently making but turn it down, simply because I don't follow the bucks. I've watched others follow it, though, and cycle through jobs very fast, especially during the dot-com years.

When the IT labor pool starts shrinking up again is when the bidding wars start up. I'd be worried if my business model relied on 60+ hour/week workers and another company offered better money for the same hours or the same money for better hours. It's already starting in some areas.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

When the IT labor pool starts shrinking up again is when the bidding wars start up. I'd be worried if my business model relied on 60+ hour/week workers and another company offered better money for the same hours or the same money for better hours. It's already starting in some areas.

Good point - and this another reason I would want to have a balanced company - 50/50 of Mr. & Ms. 40 and a healthy number of ambitious souls.

Jeff

 

[woodstock]

an interesting perspective from the German side - this is second hand mind you. a friend of mine, American, and her husband, have been in Germany for 6+ years now. they can't leave their employer without going through a huge hassle b/c of visa issues (plus their field is very narrow now). they make REALLY good money, even better than their native peers (when they were brought over, this company recruited a lot of foreigners and paid well to do so) BUT they uniformly treat people like garbage - and I do mean garbage. nothing I've read above even compares to the stories I've heard.

what is interesting though in Germany is that in some respects the employee is truly king - you get as much sick leave as your doctor will prescribe for you - one of their friends had a nervous breakdown from the treatment and has literally been out for a year, but, this company is still paying a full salary - through its insurance to be sure, but still... they do NADA to instill employee loyalty and the main things that keep my friends going back is their work ethic.

they could come home, but they are for the time being putting up with it for two reasons - one, their field is really soft everywhere, and two, they get really amazing vacation time in Germany. it simply couldn't be duplicated here. so they keep themselves going with very frequent international trips. (or heck, even pop over to Switzerland or Austria for 4 day wkd)

how much better off this company would be overall if they treated their folks better and didn't give them even an idea about staying home with a doctor's note over something we in America would drag ourselves into work anyway. many of her coworkers do abuse the sick leave - but since it's legal with a note and the employer literally can do nada about it, they feel it is justified. no loyalty, but neither does the employer earn any either.

 

[wsuffa]

I know of an employer who has a department with a 3-years and out policy. Except for the department manager. It's a constant cycle of drones, and they have to retrain each employee, frustrating others in the company that have to deal with them.

OTOH, too much longevity in one place can also be bad. People need to move and learn new things to keep their edge. Some will stay, providing important institutional knowledge.

In the end, a good employee does as much due-diligence on the employer as the employer does on the employee.....

 

[PoAdeleted5]

Me bad American. Me come and go from work as I please. Sometime work way less than 40 hours per week. Sometime work way more. Me disrespectful of authority on regular basis. Me wear sneakers and blue jeans. Me sometime go fly airplane in middle of day just for fun. Me surf a lot to blow off steam.

On the other hand: I deliver consistent, reliable, creative, on-time, on-budget results of a quality level that withstands the test of time. I also rise to the challenge and have shipped product worth many, many, many millions of dollars. For that, I command salary well into the 6 figures and goodies on top of that. See, I've got a track record of solid results going back two decades now. Someone must like me, judging by the remuneration I've received and that I've been on this particular job for 7 years now. (unusual in the tech biz).

It takes more than long hours. Sometimes it takes short hours. But then again, I'm always thinking about work even when I'm not.

I've seen wonderful programming talent from India and Asia. I've also seen numerous projects that got completely derailed by outsourcing and even in-sourcing where everyone was killing themselves on stupid work schedules. I've shipped enough software to know that it is not how many hours you work that determine success or failure or even cost effectiveness. It's the end, the goal post and whether you hit it or not that determine failure or success.

I've scared more than one project manager by not coding until the very end. My usual practice is to design up front and spend 75% of the time in design, 10% coding and the rest in testing and bug fixing. I've never slipped a schedule from my timeline either. I have though, delivered some disappointing schedules up front, or sent back things to management that were so poorly scoped as to be unschedulable. I even once consulted a job, told them the problem was an NP-Complete situation and offered alternatives. Got turned down, they hired a line of consultants after me and never shipped a single thing before they ran out of money.

 

[astanley]

Are there any large corporations that respect their workers, and therefore who's workers respect their bosses? I doubt it. American bosses are too eager to send jobs overseas, or staff them with immigrants who's work visas make them essentially well paid slaves. American workers, unwilling to tolerate such people, despise those same bosses, work is a battlefield of mutual disgust, and now many of us seek out foreign goods, such as my Hyundai and Toyota cars, instead of American goods made by foreigners, benefitting only a few rich American bosses.

The whole world is offshoring and outsourcing in the technology and business process sector. Why? Because these cost-centers are rarely within the company's core competency. They are follow on, "have to have" parts of the company that the company just isn't realizing all of the benefits from. Poor implementation of standards, inability to focus and retain focus on a strategic vision, inability to manage to service levels, and poor executive buy in.

This is where outsourcing comes in - the best firms, and the best run engagements, utilize standard processes, create a healthy culture, optimize and streamline staffing and processes, and implement strategic vision. Generally, due to the abiltiy to manage to a process, repeat it, and optimize the outsourced group, we deliver lower cost while bearing more risk and creating a financial incentive structure for the company seeking to oursource the services.

Take that, mix it in with the desire to drop costs lower, and a wider use of quality and repeatability processes brought about the Great Offshoring Revolution. We call it wage arbitrage - using the lower wages of another market to your advantage.

What brought all this on? Increasing pressure, through capital markets, deliver higher return on investments, continually unrealistic profit targets and growth, and the overall desire to cut costs on services that are not intrinsic to the corporations brand.

We all have ourselves to blame - if you want to spread blame (I don't) - for participating in the market and fueling such unrealistic expectations. American IT workers have been resistant to quality methodologies for years - seeing them as way to control their individualism (in some cases, yes, in many, no), and it has finally bit them in the ass. Other markets (India especially) have lead the way in the adoption and execution of work guided by quality and process oriented methodologies, and repeatable, quality work is cheaper in the long run.

There are a lot of costs assosciated with offshoring, it's just not salary to salary - telecommunications, training, process adoption, process reengineering, separation of critical processes from the company, that doesn't always deliver the savings people expect. But in the end, they get a workforce that is far more dedicated to process oriented thought, and that delivers a lot to any corporation. And even if they save very little (compared to the difficulty and pain they have to endure to be successful), they get a lot of gains back in the end.

I think the American worker needs to stop fearing offshoring and learn why it is so successful. I think they need to stop resenting it and realize how they can change to re-level the playing field. But that's not going to happen, because I do fundementally believe that the majority of our workforce (and our universities for that matter) will not accept process and quality oriented thought.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[SCCutler]

You may have the right to terminate people here but I am told they will still likely get unemployment handouts, which I will have to reimburse the TWC for.

Yep, Dave, that's the size of it.

We had a secretary we hired; she told us she was 61 years old and asked if we had a problem with that; of course, we did not, we were hiring skill and experience, of both of which she had boatloads.

What we did not know (being, apparently, the only lawyers in the Dallas area who had never hired this particular woman) is that (1) she melted under pressure- but not openly, where you could know it, but rather, quietly in that "make lots of typos and mis-file stuff and fax and mail stuff to the wrong lawyers" kind of way; and (2) she threw money away- as in, checks removed from envelopes and placed (unintentionally) in the garbage can. First one was about $800.00, which hurt at that time in our new-firm life, but the next was more like $5,000.00 or so, and that was not amusing at all. It was found, but we let her go after that.

When we broke it to her (she was as sweet as could be, it was like firing your grandmother), she cried and told us that she thought we were "different." We offered her an extra two weeks pay to resign, and she drew herself up big and proud and proclaimed, "I have NEVER quit a job in my life." In 61 years. Ever.

Without much effort, we identified six or seven prior employers, all of whom had had to discharge her, and all of those shared in the ding we got on the unemployment contribution.

The TWC, when we challenged the unemployment application, asked us, "Do you believe she threw the checks away on purpose?" Of course she did not, she wanted to do the best job ever, she wimply was unable to do so.

So we paid, and have probably paid several thousand dollars in increased UI contributions since then.

Sucks.

Hiring & firing- not an easy thing. Like Bob alluded (and harsh it may be, but it is true, too): folks are either there to work, or they are not. If they come and screw off, they are (1) stealing from the employer, and (2) cheating their co-workers, the ones who pull their own weight and the slackers' too.

 

[astanley]

Do you have a large percentage of employees who just work a good, reliable 40, get paid a fair salary for their 40, and are satisfied that they have a good life outside work? Or, are the majority of your employees 60-hour types who are real go-getters? These go-getters are the ones you need to be worried about, because even though you think they won't bail on you, if they do, you are much, much worse off than when Mr. 40 goes looking for a change of scenery, 'cause they'll take your clients.

This is EXACTLY the thought process that annoys the living daylights out of me. Yes, the go-getters are the highest return, but the highest risk - they can (And will) take good people and good clients with them when they leave. Well structured contracts, compensation, and intellectual property policies help work with that. Even still, I would rather have a team of the best, working at their best, of 60 hour types than the 40 who do good work but are content. Contentment, to me, is the first sign of stagnation, and when the water gets stagnant, a lot of people get sick.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

Hiring & firing- not an easy thing. Like Bob alluded (and harsh it may be, but it is true, too): folks are either there to work, or they are not. If they come and screw off, they are (1) stealing from the employer, and (2) cheating their co-workers, the ones who pull their own weight and the slackers' too.

My one quibble with this - I do a fantasy baseball league. One of the other guys on the bizdev team does as well. If things are quiet, we may chat for 15 minutes about our teams, maybe dig through a little PECOTA for fun. I like it when my folks do that, because they are creating the deeper bonds with the other people around them, and they find some time to breathe before the pressure goes back up. We may talk about a bottle of wine we had a dinner, or leave after a brutal meeting and do a 20 minute walk around the building, chatting and blowing off a little steam. Yes, if we didn't do these things, we'd gain (probably) an hour to three hours of productivity a week. But, since we're all working 80+ a week, to me it's worth that little expense to keep everyone from popping a fuse.

My problem comes from the abusers - and abusers don't last, period.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[astanley]

I'd change one thing: worked as hard as I wanted...not could.

I'm more than capable of putting in 90 hour weeks for over a year. I've done it and could do it again. If nothing else, I'd shed a few pounds. Always seems to happen.

But I don't want to. I don't seek jobs that EXPECT me to do that then whine because I don't want to, either.

Whether Robert realizes it or not, he's still lumping "American workers" into the lazy category, simply because some of us have chosen personal lives over financial servitude. That's kind of sad, really, since the whole idea of America seemed to be each person making his/her own success based on their own criteria instead of someone else's.

But maybe I've got it wrong...

I think he is saying "I have high expectations. I'm honest about them up front. On the whole, I've been dissapointed that American workers do not possess the same zeal as foreign workers". It has nothing to do with financial servitude. It has everything to do with doing things at a level beyond what many of us can comprehend.

Many executives, at least that I work with, work harder than anyone else in the world. They realize that the success of their company is on their backs - and they do what it takes to continue that success.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Brian Austin]

This is EXACTLY the thought process that annoys the living daylights out of me. Yes, the go-getters are the highest return, but the highest risk - they can (And will) take good people and good clients with them when they leave. Well structured contracts, compensation, and intellectual property policies help work with that. Even still, I would rather have a team of the best, working at their best, of 60 hour types than the 40 who do good work but are content. Contentment, to me, is the first sign of stagnation, and when the water gets stagnant, a lot of people get sick.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Contentment is a BAD thing? I think you're using the wrong word. I'm content with my job at the moment but only because it continues to present new challenges that I'm interested in overcoming.

Lack of passion is what I would be worried about. I can be content and passionate about a job at the same time. Heck, I am now. I LIKE going to work. I enjoy the challenges, even on the crappy days. But I'm also happy to walk out the door and enjoy my evening in the shop....or even digging weeds out of an overgrown garden while throwing a ball around for my dog, like I did tonight.

Consider this, too: while hiring the Indians and Chinese, did it ever occur to folks that you're training your next competitors? What happens in two years, when your key coders decide it's time to leave and present a proposal to your customers, showing how offshoring can reduce their costs by 40%? They head back home, set up shop with the experience from US companies, come back and present bids to your customers. Unless you've got some serious contractual wording, there is little you can do.

 

[Brian Austin]

I think he is saying "I have high expectations. I'm honest about them up front. On the whole, I've been dissapointed that American workers do not possess the same zeal as foreign workers". It has nothing to do with financial servitude. It has everything to do with doing things at a level beyond what many of us can comprehend.

As someone noted, his statistical pool is skewed. Go back to the home countries of the foreign programmers, start an office there and see what happens.

Many executives, at least that I work with, work harder than anyone else in the world. They realize that the success of their company is on their backs - and they do what it takes to continue that success.

Cheers,

-Andrew

You just described 80% of the workforce at our company. It's not just an executive mentality. Every mechanic and accountant knows that they are a key piece of the corporate puzzle. It shows in our numbers and our continued growth.

 

[astanley]

Contentment is a BAD thing? I think you're using the wrong word. I'm content with my job at the moment but only because it continues to present new challenges that I'm interested in overcoming.

Lack of passion is what I would be worried about. I can be content and passionate about a job at the same time. Heck, I am now. I LIKE going to work. I enjoy the challenges, even on the crappy days. But I'm also happy to walk out the door and enjoy my evening in the shop....or even digging weeds out of an overgrown garden while throwing a ball around for my dog, like I did tonight.

Yes, that is what I meant, but contentment in the "I don't want to grow" anymore - and grow can mean up, to the side, new skills, new challenges.

Consider this, too: while hiring the Indians and Chinese, did it ever occur to folks that you're training your next competitors? What happens in two years, when your key coders decide it's time to leave and present a proposal to your customers, showing how offshoring can reduce their costs by 40%? They head back home, set up shop with the experience from US companies, come back and present bids to your customers. Unless you've got some serious contractual wording, there is little you can do.

Let me put it this way: it's not a problem. There are many reasons for this (IP contracts, employment contracts, organizational design), but it has traditionally not been a problem for us, but we are ever vigilant. What you are talking about sounds very simple on the surface, and does happen with some vendors, but it's not quite that easy.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Brian Austin]

Let me put it this way: it's not a problem. There are many reasons for this (IP contracts, employment contracts, organizational design), but it has traditionally not been a problem for us, but we are ever vigilant. What you are talking about sounds very simple on the surface, and does happen with some vendors, but it's not quite that easy.

Not that easy yet, you mean. Write all the contracts you want but if you're dealing with another government's rules and regulations (or lack thereof), it's a whole new ballgame.

Personally, I don't care. I don't do programming, partly because I'm not interested in competing with anyone who is willing to make the compromises that Robert's employees make. I do some administration along with extensive network design and security. I could be installing a videoconferencing system with plasma (or LCD now) displays one day and trying to improve our anti-spam systems the next. We tried local outsourcing for a while. It didn't meet the company's needs so I was hired. Since then, unscheduled downtime is measured in minutes, not hours or days. I'm not cheap but they seem to be happy and offered the raise with no desire on my part.

Robert will continue running his business as he sees fit. I will continue living my life as I see fit. I make an effort to avoid doing business with companies like Robert's, to be honest. The accents we hear from our custom programmers are only as foreign as Louisiana, where they're based. I keep as much of my IT dollars local as possible.

 

[Bonanza]

Post removed in it's entirety as the management edited version was meaningless.
Stephen.

 

[anonn]

Bottom line: employees are essential to business, but must be managed with an iron fist and a close eye. To leave employees to themselves and expect anything but bankruptcy is a fool's game.

I am willing to bet that you will not put this out to all your employees tomorrow and let them know how you really feel about their contributions. Your attitude would really motivate them to work harder for you. An a$$ like you really would be a pleasure to work for.

 

[bbchien]

I am willing to bet that you will not put this out to all your employees tomorrow and let them know how you really feel about their contributions. Your attitude would really motivate them to work harder for you. An a$$ like you really would be a pleasure to work for.

Employment Law (Labor law) is a very complex bit of the law, indeed, because of all this.

Unfortunately, if you have one bad employee, it ruins it for all the good ones. I've had one. I was contemplating referring her case to the local states' attorney, but passed on the $120,000 loss instead. We've got some systems in place so that that's unlikely to happen again....That person got the talk from our attorney directly, and was shown the door. We changed the locks immediately.

Over at the charitable, we had one who simply had the wrong attitude. How she got thgouth the door- that's another matter. After she was let go, she filed an action with the state D.of Labor for "call pay" in which she did not participate. Fortunately I had saved all the documentation and it went nowhere- except five figures in attorney's fees.... sigh.

 

[corjulo]

Me bad American. Me come and go from work as I please. Sometime work way less than 40 hours per week. Sometime work way more. Me disrespectful of authority on regular basis. Me wear sneakers and blue jeans. Me sometime go fly airplane in middle of day just for fun. Me surf a lot to blow off steam.

On the other hand: I deliver consistent, reliable, creative, on-time, on-budget results of a quality level that withstands the test of time. I also rise to the challenge and have shipped product worth many, many, many millions of dollars. For that, I command salary well into the 6 figures and goodies on top of that. See, I've got a track record of solid results going back two decades now. Someone must like me, judging by the remuneration I've received and that I've been on this particular job for 7 years now. (unusual in the tech biz).

It takes more than long hours. Sometimes it takes short hours. But then again, I'm always thinking about work even when I'm not.

I've seen wonderful programming talent from India and Asia. I've also seen numerous projects that got completely derailed by outsourcing and even in-sourcing where everyone was killing themselves on stupid work schedules. I've shipped enough software to know that it is not how many hours you work that determine success or failure or even cost effectiveness. It's the end, the goal post and whether you hit it or not that determine failure or success.

I've scared more than one project manager by not coding until the very end. My usual practice is to design up front and spend 75% of the time in design, 10% coding and the rest in testing and bug fixing. I've never slipped a schedule from my timeline either. I have though, delivered some disappointing schedules up front, or sent back things to management that were so poorly scoped as to be unschedulable. I even once consulted a job, told them the problem was an NP-Complete situation and offered alternatives. Got turned down, they hired a line of consultants after me and never shipped a single thing before they ran out of money.

Very interesting. Sounds like a lot of the really good programmers and software engineers I know. Love to know what kind of software you write.

 

[grattonja]

I guess we have different definitions for "survive". When I'm older, I'd prefer to look back on my life and look at all the great times I had instead of dying early of a flippin' stress induced heart attack.

I'm slowly accumulating all the little things I think I'll need to stay busy and happy when I retire. I won't be rich, I don't expect to be in a yacht but we'll have a nice little place, the residual income to travel a little and enjoy life instead of wondering how we're going to pay the gardener for our estate.

If that's failure, I'll take it any day of the year.

That's my outlook. Our financial advisor calls it "financial security". If I want to CFI part time and get paid squat, and maybe work part time as well, after my kid gets through school and the house is paid off, I will be able to do so. Or volunteer. Or buy a plane and travel freely while I still have the health to do so.

Ain't gonna be rich. But not gonna be poor or working 80 hours per week until I die, either. Hopefully anyway.

Jim G

 

[corjulo]

This is EXACTLY the thought process that annoys the living daylights out of me. Yes, the go-getters are the highest return, but the highest risk - they can (And will) take good people and good clients with them when they leave. Well structured contracts, compensation, and intellectual property policies help work with that. Even still, I would rather have a team of the best, working at their best, of 60 hour types than the 40 who do good work but are content. Contentment, to me, is the first sign of stagnation, and when the water gets stagnant, a lot of people get sick.

Cheers,

-Andrew

60 hours a week well into ones 40's sounds like, well, a recipe for a miserable family life. If you have a spouse and kids then putting that much time into work borders on neglect. I did it when I was 30. I won't do it now. Go ahead an fire me. Also, I find that the 60 hours a week crowd tend to exaggerate a bit. That or they need to work that much to pay for their failed marriages..... Attack...Now

I certainly make exception for the working class folks that have no choice. Cops, Fireman and teachers come to mind

 

[grattonja]

60 hours a week well into ones 40's sounds like, well, a recipe for a miserable family life. If you have a spouse and kids then putting that much time into work borders on neglect. I did it when I was 30. I won't do it now. Go ahead an fire me. Also, I find that the 60 hours a week crowd tend to exaggerate a bit. That or they need to work that much to pay for their failed marriages..... Attack...Now

I certainly make exception for the working class folks that have no choice. Cops, Fireman and teachers come to mind

I grew up in that. My father is a contractor, builds wonderful homes. Much beloved by his clients. But, even at age 63, he is still working 7 day weeks. He loves his work and that is fine, but our time together growing up was very limited until I was old enough to work summers with him. Then we had A LOT of time together. Enough so that I went to law school. We love each other, always have. But we sure do have a better relationship now than we did back then.

I will not leave my daughter believing that I love work more than her. I don't really care if that ****es off an employer. I'm not working 80 hours per week at the risk of my daughter's mental health and well being. Again, she will be here long after Robert and I are gone. She is the future. If we don't tend to the future, what's the point now? Money is good, but you can't take it with you. I am fairly happy now, and hope to be so when I retire. My daughter will have a legacy unless I get really sick. My future is covered.

Jim G

 

[inav8r]

I'm in this situation now myself. I am a contractor and I have been at the same company for 2 years now. The company is in the process of replacing all of its employees and local contractors with an off shore firm - moving the work to India.

During the transition I've seen most of the company's full time employees let go. It's hard to believe as a consultant I'm still here, but my days are numbered too ... all because my hourly rate is too high.

Now on to the meat of the post... I've just been assigned a high priority project that must be completed before a certain date. Another full time employee, who was let go, initially spec'd out the project and completed a work estimate (if he were to have completed the project) - he spent nearly a month working on the research for the spec's and estimate.

After receiving the project I was told I must keep to the original estimate of hours - I can't add any time or change the deadline for the project. I must do what ever is necessary to make the date happen, I'm not going to be given any additional time to "get up to speed". Normally, I'm a team player and I work evenings and weekends to do whatever it takes and I don't complain. I like my job, I like my contract and I like the challenges as they come up.

The kicker is that before I was assigned this project I had already scheduled several lessons, a stage check and my checkride. I also need study time to study for the oral and just plain old "chair flying" time. I had to tell my employer that while I will do whatever I can to make the date happen, I needed him to be aware that I have already made commitments outside of the office this month, and while I would accommodate him the best I can, I didn't think I would be able to put a ton of hours each week like I'd done in the past.

Surprisingly, after talking a bit about how much all of this has cost me and the potential for additional cost if I delay my training / checkride (as I'll have to relearn some stuff) I think he understood and just asked that I do my best to make it happen. Because of his willingness to work with me and around my schedule I am now committed to make his date - AND - finish my PP-ASEL (well, at least fly the check ride).

A long time ago I had a boss, actually the owner of the company, tell me that I can't have too much of one thing in my life. I need to balance everything out. If you spend a lot of time on one thing then sooner or later you've got to spend time away from it. I've taken that advice to heart over the years since then, and it's served me well.

 

[RobertGerace]

Actually, Bob, you kinda omitted my background (then again, my focus was on the UI situation, not US vs foreign workers).

I work hard for the future, and continue to do so. I've traded a lot for the the future, and my personal life reflects that (no, I'm not going into details on a public forum). Someday, offline, I'd be willing to share.

There are some jobs I could do today, but I choose not to (the been there, done that, dealt with abusive clients/customers syndrome). I've spent more time developing experiences and reputations than immediate gratification. I'd rather start/build a business. Reputation to the customer is critical.... and employees I hire have to help me get there. Do I make them have skin in the game? You bet!

Right now, I'm selling knowledge, experience, and ability.

My primary client right now may lead to a situation that can transition into an executive role once the business gets funded. I chose (my choice) an initial client relationship rather than a partnership for a number of reasons that are confidential but let's just say it's like your probation period. I'll chose to continue with that or not based on my expectation of whether that business has what it takes to succeed. I have no intention of going out in any way but on top. And my compensation is based directly on whether or not I am successful at the goal (it's not a salary).

I expect people - including me - to compensate & be compensated based on accomplishments, not longevity.

I think we're on the same general wavelength, though we may disagree on some of the details. We are in different industries, so I'd expect different perspectives.

BTW, I've run across some foreign workers in my time that I'd rank as far worse than Americans in terms of productivity & attitude. I guess it's a matter of experiences and attitudes.

Looks like I've got a lot of typing to do today.

Who says extra work hours have to come out of 'family' time? Or for that matter, who says anyone's personal life has to suffer?

I'd venture to guess that every one of us spends countless hours being inefficent (two trips to the store because of lack of planning)...that could be used for personal and/or work time.

I'd venture to guess that most of us spends countless hours doing ______ (insert anything from crossword puzzles to even (gulp) flying. I've never really understood card games, board games, and crossword puzzles...but I do understand flying.

If we take the extra hours that we whittle away and use them in a productive fashion, there is no end to how productive we could be. Here's an idea! How about combining flying with some type of business, or (even if it take 3 years to find)...how about finding a job where you can fly on your day-job!??? Then, you (not you 'Bill'...you (anyone who disagrees with me)...can take back every Saturday you spend away from your kids flying...work harder...and still get to fly. (yeah; I know, some will say, "I already fly with my kids."; to which I say, *every* Saturday?; and if the answer to that question is yes, I think that's awesome...but I'd venture to guess the exception not the rule.

The other thing is, how much sleep does the human body really need? I've been going on six hours per night for 15 years. Occasionally on a weekend I might sleep 10...but usually six; and I feel fine.

So I want to say that I never said people should trade their family time specifically.

Also, I never said "You" (not you, "Bill"..."You" whoever disagrees with my attitude) had to work these hours. Anyone who can afford to fly on a regular basis obviously has something good going for them, and if "You" (whoever) can do that on 2 hours per week...Bully for you!!! (I just won't hire "You"...but that's fine..."You" would not work for me either...and the world still works. Imagine that..."

 

[woodstock]

OK Bob, now your post above is starting to scare me.

how much sleep do you need - 8 hours. and I'm cranky on 7.

anyone who is doing less might think they are doing ok, might be "used" to it - but you're getting into sleep debt here.

still sounds like you want it all - there are only 168 hours in the week. something is going to suffer - there is no free lunch. it comes down to priorities (which one is going to get shorted?)