AME screwed up; can I go basic med

Half Fast said:
Huh?

I have a 3rd class and Basic Med. My 3rd class expires May 2020 but my SI is only good until May 2019. I believe I can just let the SI lapse and continue using Basic Med. Are you saying that's not correct?
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Your S.I. should say "Not valid for any class after <date>"... Your 3rd class is not valid after that date unless you provide CAMI with satisfactory supplemental information from your physician. So, I believe you're correct.
 
bflynn said:
Unfortunate, this is not the case. The letter instructs recipients to get a new medical within 60 days or face action under 67.413, which is the section that talks about denials, suspension and revocations. If these people don’t get a medical, their medical will be revoked and BM becomes invalid.

Here is the template released by the FAA

http://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Files/pdfs/news-events/letters/20190305-florida-ame-letter.pdf
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Wow!

I can understand this level of bossiness if it’s directed at pilots with an ATP or commercial certificate, who are carrying paying passengers.

But it’s awfully heavy handed for Joe Schmuck and his little bugsmasher that he seldom flies. What if he cannot present himself to an AME that quickly, because he’s out of the country, or meeting tax deadlines for clients, or whatever?
 
I wonder how many pilots were hoping to go Basic Med because of something that came up since their last medical that now has to be reported?
 
Half Fast said:
Clear enough.

But here's a hypothetical: suppose the OP had already done Basic Med. Can the FAA then go back prior to the BM and invalidate a class 3, thereby invalidating the Basic Med?
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The FAA cannot revoke a certificate that has expired. if you have already registered for BasicMed but still have a valid, unexpired medical certificate, the can ask you to be re-examined under 49 CFR 44709, and if you do not comply, they will suspend your certificate...thus disqualifying you for BasicMed.
 
FORANE said:
Uh, hadn't heard this. I am planning on going basic med; my 3rd class expires this month. You're saying I can't do basic med before the end of this month?
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You can do BasicMed whenever. You just have to abide by the requirements of your medical certificate while it is still valid. Once you medical expires, your relationship with the FAA office of Aerospace Medicine is dissolved, at least until you apply for another medical certificate.
 
FORANE said:
Uh, hadn't heard this. I am planning on going basic med; my 3rd class expires this month. You're saying I can't do basic med before the end of this month?
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No.

But if something happens to your make your 3rd class invalid, it takes out BM too. An example is someone who gets a 3rd class + SI so they can fly under BM. They have to maintain the 3rd class including SIs for the full duration of the 3rd class. If they lose the 3rd class, it invalidates BM, even if the reason for the invalidation would not normally be a disqualifying condition under BM.
 
bflynn said:
Unfortunate, this is not the case. The letter instructs recipients to get a new medical within 60 days or face action under 67.413, which is the section that talks about denials, suspension and revocations. If these people don’t get a medical, their medical will be revoked and BM becomes invalid.

Here is the template released by the FAA

http://www.alpa.org/-/media/ALPA/Files/pdfs/news-events/letters/20190305-florida-ame-letter.pdf
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Is there any way to find our what Dr. Kurrle's transgressions were? Was he skipping specific tests or passing people that were failing tests or what?

Asking for a friend! :rolleyes:
 
bflynn said:
No.

But if something happens to your make your 3rd class invalid, it takes out BM too. An example is someone who gets a 3rd class + SI so they can fly under BM. They have to maintain the 3rd class including SIs for the full duration of the 3rd class. If they lose the 3rd class, it invalidates BM, even if the reason for the invalidation would not normally be a disqualifying condition under BM.
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Can you provide a reference for that? You seem to be saying that when my SI expires next month, if I don't reinstate it I can't use Basic Med. That conflicts with what Dr. Bruce told me. I believe Stan has it right; when the SI expires, the class 3 lapses along with it and BM is still good. The duration of the SI effectively sets the duration of the class 3.

Paging @bbchien . Bruce, could you please step in and clarify this?
 
Matthew said:
I wonder how many pilots were hoping to go Basic Med because of something that came up since their last medical that now has to be reported?
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Give the kluge that is Basic Med, I'd say 90% have some worry or other.
 
NoHeat said:
Wow!

I can understand this level of bossiness if it’s directed at pilots with an ATP or commercial certificate, who are carrying paying passengers.

But it’s awfully heavy handed for Joe Schmuck and his little bugsmasher that he seldom flies. What if he cannot present himself to an AME that quickly, because he’s out of the country, or meeting tax deadlines for clients, or whatever?
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Then he won't have a medical, until he then gets a new exam. No issues (as long as he doesn't try to fly in the USA!)
 
Half Fast said:
Can you provide a reference for that? You seem to be saying that when my SI expires next month, if I don't reinstate it I can't use Basic Med. That conflicts with what Dr. Bruce told me. I believe Stan has it right; when the SI expires, the class 3 lapses along with it and BM is still good. The duration of the SI effectively sets the duration of the class 3.

Paging @bbchien . Bruce, could you please step in and clarify this?
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Maybe we're not understanding the same situation. As long as your regular medical is still live, then you have to maintain it. If you are required to get an annual renewal of a SI and you don't renew it, your medical will be pulled, that hasn't changed. The revocation will remove BasicMed as an option.

Once your 3rd class is expired, then you're free. So if you are over 40 with an annual SI, you have to renew it once after a year, but not the second time because your 3rd class will die when the renewal is due. Once dead, there's no action for them to take against you.

Did they come up with an option to surrender a 3rd class without it being considered suspended, revoked or denied?
 
bflynn said:
Maybe we're not understanding the same situation. As long as your regular medical is still live, then you have to maintain it. If you are required to get an annual renewal of a SI and you don't renew it, your medical will be pulled, that hasn't changed. The revocation will remove BasicMed as an option.
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That is news to me. My understanding has always been that if you have an SI, your medical is only valid for the duration of the SI. You can either renew the SI to extend your medical's validity for another year (if your physical exam isn't due until then), or not, at your discretion. Failure to do so will not mean a revocation.

The only kind of situation where you could get into a revocation, as far as I know, is if a condition of your SI *during the period of its validity* is to submit periodic reports... such as a one-year SI issued under the condition that you submit bloodwork to the FAA at intervals during that year.

The OP's situation is very different... he's essentially been told that he does not have a valid medical, but he has started the application process, so he has to see it through, on the FAA's timetable.

Did they come up with an option to surrender a 3rd class without it being considered suspended, revoked or denied?
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Come up with? I didn't know that was anything new. Bruce recommends that people who know they are at risk of revocation send in their medical for cancellation so that the FAA can't revoke it.

Again, the OP's situation is different... the FAA has already "caught" him (actually his AME), and he must comply or he will be DQ'd from light sport and BM.
 
azure said:
The OP's situation is very different... he's essentially been told that he does not have a valid medical, but he has started the application process, so he has to see it through, on the FAA's timetable.
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I guess that's the simplest way of putting it: When you apply for a medical, there are only two outcomes: issued and denied. Once you start the process it has to complete. In this case FAA says the "issued" was done in error and the process is not yet complete.
 
bflynn said:
Maybe we're not understanding the same situation. As long as your regular medical is still live, then you have to maintain it. If you are required to get an annual renewal of a SI and you don't renew it, your medical will be pulled, that hasn't changed. The revocation will remove BasicMed as an option.

Once your 3rd class is expired, then you're free. So if you are over 40 with an annual SI, you have to renew it once after a year, but not the second time because your 3rd class will die when the renewal is due. Once dead, there's no action for them to take against you.

Did they come up with an option to surrender a 3rd class without it being considered suspended, revoked or denied?
Click to expand...


I don't believe that's true. I'm inclined to agree with Azure's post above. My medical certificate says "Not valid for any class after 5/31/2019." To me that means it expires on 5/31/19, not that the FAA will revoke it if I don't renew it for another year. Hopefully @bbchien will stop by to clarify.
 
I still don’t think you are understanding the example. The example is being 1 year into a 3rd class medical which includes an annual SI. The SI must be renewed or your medical will be revoked. As long as your medical is alive, you have to maintain the SI, even if you also get Basic Med.

Once your medical expires, it’s dead and the FAA can’t do anything with it. When it expires, any associated SI is also dead and does not have to be maintained anymore.

I have previously been told that surrendering your medical counts as a suspension or revocation. Is that not correct?

Am I just not writing clearly?

The OPs situation is that he was given 60 days to get a new exam or else the FAA would pull his previous medical and it would count as a revocation, disqualifying him from BasicMed.
 
Health Nut said:
My last medical was Nov 2017 so I am due later this year. It wasn't just me. All airmen examined by this AME are affected.
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Do you have any reason to believe you wouldn't pass a medical given by another examiner? You can either pass or you can't, the examiner shouldn't matter. Unless you snuck through with a guy who was "pilot friendly" and you know you can't pass a legit exam...
 
bflynn said:
I still don’t think you are understanding the example. The example is being 1 year into a 3rd class medical which includes an annual SI. The SI must be renewed or your medical will be revoked. As long as your medical is alive, you have to maintain the SI, even if you also get Basic Med.

Once your medical expires, it’s dead and the FAA can’t do anything with it. When it expires, any associated SI is also dead and does not have to be maintained anymore.

I have previously been told that surrendering your medical counts as a suspension or revocation. Is that not correct?

Am I just not writing clearly?

The OPs situation is that he was given 60 days to get a new exam or else the FAA would pull his previous medical and it would count as a revocation, disqualifying him from BasicMed.
Click to expand...

@Half Fast explained it the post before yours.

I think @Half Fast has it correct in the post before yours. If you have a condition that your SI has to be renewed after a year, you won’t be issued a 3 year medical certificate. It will expire at the end of the duration of the SI regardless of age and class.
 
Ok. So he doesn’t have a medical that meets my example. His dies in about 7 weeks and any SIs will die with it. June 1, he is free of the medical system.
 
Half Fast said:
Can you provide a reference for that? You seem to be saying that when my SI expires next month, if I don't reinstate it I can't use Basic Med. That conflicts with what Dr. Bruce told me. I believe Stan has it right; when the SI expires, the class 3 lapses along with it and BM is still good. The duration of the SI effectively sets the duration of the class 3.

Paging @bbchien . Bruce, could you please step in and clarify this?
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On the day the SI certificate expires, regardless of what the auth. Letter says, it is lapsed. Only “sponsored” SIs have interim maintenance requirements, so as to not get revoked mid-term....like random urines.
 
bbchien said:
On the day the SI certificate expires, regardless of what the auth. Letter says, it is lapsed. Only “sponsored” SIs have interim maintenance requirements, so as to not get revoked mid-term....like random urines.
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Thank you! That's what I thought.
 
mryan75 said:
Do you have any reason to believe you wouldn't pass a medical given by another examiner? You can either pass or you can't, the examiner shouldn't matter. Unless you snuck through with a guy who was "pilot friendly" and you know you can't pass a legit exam...
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I am getting older. My arthritis is acting up. My blood pressure is under control but takes medication. I struggle with weight. My hearing and my eyesight are not as good as they used to be.

When I was in school, I always went into a test thinking I would do lousy and was always pleasantly surprised if/when I did well.

When I go to my doctor for my annual exam, I always think he is going to find cancer or heart disease, or my blood tests will show some fatal disease or organ failure.

When I go for my 3rd class medical, I always think he is going to find something to ground me. And now that I know my doctor has been suspended from giving flight physicals, I am afraid he was passing me for something that should have been caught before.

Also, as I said before, I have already arranged with my primary care physician to do my Basic Med exam this year. He has agreed and he has done the research. Now I have to tell him I wasted his time.

So this is causing me a lot more stress than the thought of dropping an extra $150. Heck, I spent that on dinner last night. Before tip.
 
Matthew said:
I guess that's the simplest way of putting it: When you apply for a medical, there are only two outcomes: issued and denied. Once you start the process it has to complete. In this case FAA says the "issued" was done in error and the process is not yet complete.
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Agreed. Basically what I wrote in post #27.
 
Health Nut said:
I am getting older. My arthritis is acting up. My blood pressure is under control but takes medication. I struggle with weight. My hearing and my eyesight are not as good as they used to be.

When I was in school, I always went into a test thinking I would do lousy and was always pleasantly surprised if/when I did well.

When I go to my doctor for my annual exam, I always think he is going to find cancer or heart disease, or my blood tests will show some fatal disease or organ failure.

When I go for my 3rd class medical, I always think he is going to find something to ground me. And now that I know my doctor has been suspended from giving flight physicals, I am afraid he was passing me for something that should have been caught before.

Also, as I said before, I have already arranged with my primary care physician to do my Basic Med exam this year. He has agreed and he has done the research. Now I have to tell him I wasted his time.

So this is causing me a lot more stress than the thought of dropping an extra $150. Heck, I spent that on dinner last night. Before tip.
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If he's willing to do BasicMed, why not? Seems like it was designed exactly for your situation.
 
post: 2706339 said:
When I go for my 3rd class medical, I always think he is going to find something to ground me.
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So, here’s a thought. You’ve already done MedXpress. Call an AME and get a consult. Don’t give him the confirmation number, just give him the paper application.

Have him tell you whether or not you’ll pass, in the office, today.

If yes, give the confirmation and be done with it.

If no, get the criteria, the details, the requirements that are needed to pass and do it.

Your goal is to fly on BM. To do so, it sounds like you’ve got ‘just one more’ for something beyond your control.

Essentially your having to go around because conditions changed. So, to be successful, adjust and get back on the glide path.
 
bbchien said:
On the day the SI certificate expires, regardless of what the auth. Letter says, it is lapsed. Only “sponsored” SIs have interim maintenance requirements, so as to not get revoked mid-term....like random urines.
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Thanks Bruce. Didn't know that "sponsored" was the term for the kind of SI I was thinking of... makes sense though.
 
Health Nut said:
So this is causing me a lot more stress than the thought of dropping an extra $150. Heck, I spent that on dinner last night. Before tip.
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Wow. Either you are buying dinner for a group, or you have VERY expensive tastes...
 
Clip4 said:
Call the local FSDO and voluntarily surrender your medical certificate.
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I notice that the letter says "At this time, your medical certificate has not been suspended, denied, or revoked." It goes on to threaten legal action under 67.413 if he doesn't get a new AME exam within 60 days, but the penalty prescribed in that regulation is just suspension, modification, or revocation of his medical certificate. If he surrendered it for cancellation before then, there would be nothing to suspend, modify or revoke.

I'm not saying that this would definitely work, but it seems like it might be worth trying. If he surrendered his medical certificate for cancellation and subsequently got a revocation notice anyway, then he would still have the option of applying for a medical certificate, no?
 
That might depend on how confident he is that an AME won't find something problematic, and even if he is confident, surprises can happen.
 
Palmpilot said:
That might depend on how confident he is that an AME won't find something problematic, and even if he is confident, surprises can happen.
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Which is exactly why I suggested the consult. Hell, he could probably read the guide for AMEs and know whether or not he’ll pass.

The medical ‘performance’ requirements aren’t rocket surgery. The FAA’s requirements for some deviations to those requirements can be, though.
 
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