Am I the only one?

Loveair

Loveair

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Loveair
OK brief history before my?? I started in August 2014. I have just under 50 hours. I have about 15 hours in the plane I am flying now which is a 182. Started and soloed in a 172. I have completed my Xcountry solo. And have solo'd three times since. Now for the embarrassing question. Takeoffs, flying, patterns, etc. are all good. Approach, glide, etc. all good. I am still as nervous as a squirrel on a 4 lane hwy on landings. On one of my solos. I busted out 6 landings that where OK. I left with confidence saying finally I have it down. My next solo. I was all over the place and sweating like Jesse Jackson at a job interview. Bounced a couple of landings and had to do a couple of go arounds. I know I am getting close to my CFI talking about my checkride. But I am still struggling with landings! Please tell me I am not alone?:dunno:
 
Sounds normal to me. When I was a DE I expected an applicant to be safe, not perfect. Your examiner will know that you are a newbie, s/he will have seen many, many, newbies before, and expectations will be adjusted accordingly.

Bob Gardner
 
not unusual at all.

It was well after my checkride that I stopped worrying about landings.
At some point you will just start knowing "you've got this" when landing and be able to sort of do it by feel. It happens gradually and you won't notice it happening.

We just switched to a new plane and once again I land like crap. So I am dealing with this phenomenon all over again.

normal.
 
You're not alone, I had the same issue and still do sometimes. You have some good days, you have some bad days. Sometimes you grease one landing and bounce the next one in. If you're having a bad day and not feeling the airplane, call it, go home, clear your head, and try again another day.

You'll see it all over this board in response to various threads, but your CFI would not have signed you off for solo work if they didn't think you were ready for it.
 
Sometimes a different CFI can give you a different perspective on landing, give advise you haven't heard, or pick up on something you are doing wrong (like looking down instead of down the runway). Maybe take a flight or two with someone new.

The good CFIs will be supportive of this and not take it personally.
 
bobmrg said:
Sounds normal to me. When I was a DE I expected an applicant to be safe, not perfect. Your examiner will know that you are a newbie, s/he will have seen many, many, newbies before, and expectations will be adjusted accordingly.

Bob Gardner
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This.
 
I had the same issues when I transferred to the 182 when I bought it. Landings were more luck than consistent. I found a local CFI that knew the 182 inside and out and we did a few session working on nothing but landing techniques in the 182 which is what it took for me to get consistent.


So no, you are NOT the only one!
 
Thanks for the support! Sounds like I need to just keep pounding them out. My CFI is good. We have tried 20 degree flaps instead of full. A little more speed on glide etc. I have settled on a little faster glide and full flap landing. I seam to have more control this way. This plane tends to yaw a good bit in ground effect. I just have to get my feet, hands, throttle, and head all working together. Thanks again for all the input!
 
Loveair said:
Bounced a couple of landings and had to do a couple of go arounds. I know I am getting close to my CFI talking about my checkride. But I am still struggling with landings! Please tell me I am not alone?:dunno:
Click to expand...

Everyone will hit a rut. Go back to the basics:

1. Hold centerline and be stabilized
2. Hold if off and fly it all the way through touch down (don't wait for the runway to come up and smack thee:lol:).
3. Transition eyes from TDZ to end of runway in flare
 
Loveair said:
Thanks for the support! Sounds like I need to just keep pounding them out. My CFI is good. We have tried 20 degree flaps instead of full. A little more speed on glide etc. I have settled on a little faster glide and full flap landing. I seam to have more control this way. This plane tends to yaw a good bit in ground effect. I just have to get my feet, hands, throttle, and head all working together. Thanks again for all the input!
Click to expand...

In a 182, you'll want to figure out how to do a real short field landing. 20 deg flaps is not consistent with the POH and may not go over very well during your exam. Same deal with landing with power. It's fine for a normal or soft field landing.

I very, very strongly suspect your problem in that airplane is a light right foot. In a 172, you get very little left turning tendency in the flare. In a 182, you get noticeably more. In nearly all airplanes, the controls get mushy at the very slow speeds and you need more effort to get the same response.

The DE will expect safety, not perfection, but it's a good bet he'll want you to do a real short field landing like it says to in the POH. That is, specific approach speed, power off, full flap, and yank the flaps up after touch down.

FWIW, I think the model name for that aircraft should be changed from "Skylane" to "More Right Rudder." It really needs quite a bit when the nose is pointed up. It's even worse for a short field takeoff and especially a power-on stall.

Another possibility is that you're flaring too abruptly.

Either way, a lesson with a different, preferably more senior, CFI is quite likely to expose the trouble.
 
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What if you were the only one?
That would totally be a kick in the nuts.
 
Stop thinking of it as "flaring." When newer pilots think "flare," that often causes them to pull back too much. Think of it as leveling off just above the runway. Don't try to get the nose to pitch up until after you start to lose airspeed, and need to pull back in order to try to keep it from sinking. As you are flying level above the runway to let the airspeed bleed off, then think about trying not to let it land. As the airspeed starts to bleed off, then you pull back to raise the nose to keep the plane from sinking. As more speed bleeds off, you pull back more and more. Eventually, the plane will quit flying and set you down fairly gently assuming you leveled off appropriately close to the run way.
 
One other thing to remember in the 182 - TRIM! Trim is your friend in that plane, even more so than in the 172.

We all have our days when we think we couldn't land a plane. And then there are days when everything is perfect. Don't worry about it too much, just keep working on it. BTW, you want to know how to really mess up your landings after you pass the check ride? Start working on your instrument rating. You'll spend more time flying and less time landing. I know my landings suffered for a while until after I passed that ride.

Keep it up. You're practically there. And once it clicks you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
 
It seems to me we all regularly scare ourselves with a landing long after we get our ticket. So I don't think you're alone, especially at your stage.

Your CFI should provide the best guidance since he's been flying with you, but I'll just say that a lot of the landing difficulties students have involve proper approach and touchdown speed and proper round-out.

Less flaps and more speed is not what the typical student would need to improve landings (see MAKG1's note below about this being common in transitions to 182 - I stand corrected), though it's certainly possible that your difficulties with landing aren't typical and so the CFI is advising you appropriately. So often, though, students have too much speed during the approach and touchdown.

My standard tips: re-lookup the book final approach speeds and pick the lower side of the range. Nail that airspeed on short final; accept nothing more or less. Don't "flare", instead begin a nice smooth roundout to level starting when you're a wing-width or two above the runway. Hold the plane level, just above the runway, and try not to let it land.
 
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I too was nervous about landings. I went away from flying for many years and started again in a tailwheel plane which made me REALLY nervous about landings.

Just go get in the pattern and knock a bunch of them out. Even when you bobble it will increase your confidence because you will prove to yourself that when it gets out of shape, you are capable of gathering it back up.

Just keep flying and practicing. The confidence that you are looking for will only come with time.

Good luck.
 
I think once you can positively identify the moment when the airplane is on the back of the energy curve, landings get a whole lot easier. I don't think enough students put much thought into why the airplane does what it does. I know I didn't.
 
When you say you're nervous, that is OK. As long as you're not nervous to the point of being unable to do the things you need to do, you're fine. Given that you were able to write these posts, you've obviously survived and you haven't mentioned any bent metal. All good.

Just keep practicing landings and doing all the things you've been taught. We all still practice landings and we all still make crappy ones from time to time even if we never admit it ("wow the crosswinds were SQUIRRELLY today. Whew!").

Keep on keeping on. You're almost there!
 
asechrest said:
Less flaps and more speed is not what the typical student would need to improve landings
Click to expand...

Actually, they are very common for 182 transitions. A 182 is not a trainer and has some quirks when landing. You can't do it without rudder in no wind, and I think that's the problem.

182s like nose gear landings even less than 172s.
 
MAKG1 said:
Actually, they are very common for 182 transitions. A 182 is not a trainer and has some quirks when landing. You can't do it without rudder in no wind, and I think that's the problem.

182s like nose gear landings even less than 172s.
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Ok, understood. No experience in the 182.
 
How do you feel after you land? If you feel like you've just narrowly escaped death then you need more practice with an instructor.

If you just feel that the landing was bad but you think you could do better, then I think you're normal.
 
I felt the same way as you around that time and things are only going to move faster as you get closer to your check ride. Now just 30 hours beyond getting my PPL cert, I'm still building confidence on my landings and working out the kinks. The best thing I did during my training was to record every session (solo and dual) with a GoPro camera plus the audio splitter to capture headset audio. It had an immediate impact on my confidence as I was able to debrief each of my landings later to see what I was doing well--aaaand not so much. A few weeks ago, I played back my pre-solo check with the Chief Instructor and came across some really great pointers I had forgotten about that I worked into a recent flight to practice touch-n-gos. Remember, it's easy to fly safe--hard to fly great.
 
Consistent use of trim down final to the correct speeds will consistently give you good results landing. Trim for airspeed, add power to meet your glide slope. You shouldn't be manually pulling back on the yoke until you are flaring. Before that you should be slowing down with the trim wheel.
 
kwc98 said:
What does this mean?
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It is a joke. You should laugh

But if it really bothers you there are a couple of options. You could pm the OP to discuss any issue you may have with his post or you may click on that little icon for reporting the post for possible TOS violation.

You will notice that none of the options i mentioned included starting a discussion with the OP in the open forum about your concerns.

Just my opinion.
 
Loveair said:
Thanks for the support! Sounds like I need to just keep pounding them out. My CFI is good. We have tried 20 degree flaps instead of full. A little more speed on glide etc. I have settled on a little faster glide and full flap landing. I seam to have more control this way. This plane tends to yaw a good bit in ground effect. I just have to get my feet, hands, throttle, and head all working together. Thanks again for all the input!
Click to expand...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Good landings are slow landings!! Reducing drag and adding speed is the exact opposite of what you should be doing.

You are an energy manager. The total energy in the flare comprises potential energy (height above the surface) and kinetic energy (airspeed). Kinetic energy is a square function...if you double the airspeed the energy goes up fourfold. Before the airplane stops flying you need to cut way back on the kinetic energy and reduce potential energy to zero by touching down.

Over the threshold your airspeed should be 1.2 x Vso at landing weight...the stall speed in the book is based on max gross weight so you should be well below that number unless the plane is full of passengers and you just topped off at the airport on the other side of town.

Bottom line: You are too fast and are not making full use of your flaps.

Get the March issue of Plane and Pilot and read the article on V-speeds by Joe Shelton.

Bob Gardner
 
amen Bob

sunday I was out on the dirt bike shooing the critters off the farm strip so the partner in the -90 could land. A warrior flown by one of the neighbor's sons landed right after him. My daughter mentioned that it must be an eye trick from size because it seemed like the warrior touched down a whole lot faster than the king air. I told her she saw it right, there was no trick.
 
Bob is probably right. I shaved a few knots off my approach speed, and started using as much flaps as the conditions allow, and my landings improved enormously. Plus my airplane requires a light touch, and it's much easier to over-control it when I have too much speed going into the roundout.
 
Great advice by all. Thanks! I was landing the 172 fairly well before I moved to the 182. The 182 does require a good bit more rudder play and tends to want to float a lot more. Most of you are correct in stating possible mistakes. Not enough rudder, to aggressive flair etc. I'm getting there. Just a little frustrated. I have drove big rigs, been a crane operator, raced dirtbikes etc. I usually pick things up fairly quick. Landing a plane apparently not for the faint of heart! Thanks again for all the input and keep it coming.
 
Shawn said:
I had the same issues when I transferred to the 182 when I bought it. Landings were more luck than consistent. I found a local CFI that knew the 182 inside and out and we did a few session working on nothing but landing techniques in the 182 which is what it took for me to get consistent.
Click to expand...

On many aircraft, Landing is all about "flying the numbers" in terms of power settings, airspeed, altitude, when to do how much flaps, and more. The 182 is much more like this than the 172's I've flown.

Finding a CFI like Shawn describes would be money and time well spent. I've done that during my 100-ish hours in a 182P and it made a notable difference.

After that, it's just lots and lots of practice. Just remember that for each flight, you get to practice a landing :lol:
 
Loveair said:
Great advice by all. Thanks! I was landing the 172 fairly well before I moved to the 182. The 182 does require a good bit more rudder play and tends to want to float a lot more. Most of you are correct in stating possible mistakes. Not enough rudder, to aggressive flair etc. I'm getting there. Just a little frustrated. I have drove big rigs, been a crane operator, raced dirtbikes etc. I usually pick things up fairly quick. Landing a plane apparently not for the faint of heart! Thanks again for all the input and keep it coming.
Click to expand...

I would think excessive floating indicates too much energy, suggesting that using full flaps and a slower approach speed might be in order.
 
Yeah, I'm not into the "Drive it on fast" method of landing unless I'm doing a wheelie in a tail dragger. In a tricycle gear plane youl'll almost always get away with it, until you hit an icy runway, then things may get more interesting. :lol: People have commented that I land a 310 in a full stall landing, and that on short final I am far below redline, and sometimes below the green arc. It really doesn't matter what you are flying, this is your optimum landing profile, run out of potential enery and kinetic energy at the same time a couple inches over the runway.
 
asechrest said:
I would think excessive floating indicates too much energy, suggesting that using full flaps and a slower approach speed might be in order.
Click to expand...

Agreed. 182s make pretty nice short field landings, especially if they have 40 deg flaps (but the 30 deg ones are nothing to laugh at either).

With the prop full in like it's supposed to be, the approach angle with full flap and idle power is quite steep. That's very useful. They are draggy as hell in that configuration.

My 182 landings have been floaty lately as well. The essential reason is a too-close-in pattern with passengers (which makes slips inadvisible), resulting in about 5 knots too much speed. 5 knots makes a lot of difference. Gotta practice some more.
 
Took me well past 300 hours to land consistently without embarrassment. I shudder at the memory...
 
My landings are quite average and I'm proud of that. Short field, soft field, normal full flap, no flap with or without slipping, power off 180s all work out more often than not. Not perfect but passable, safe and comfortable.

That is until I have my wife and my 2 year old on board….. My last flight with them had a final landing that felt similar to my first landing on an icy Alaskan runway, a little squirrely.

Only a couple of knots extra translates to more lift, longer float and if you don’t bleed it off enough, less weight on the wheels when you do touchdown.

Nail your speeds and don’t worry because we all bounce, drop it in or side load the gear from time to time.
 
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