Am I cleared through class C with flight following?

FlyNE said:
They also use "with you" nonstop. I wouldn't base my communication methodologies on their teachings. :)
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That's bad phraseology??

I use it all the time.


Example:

"Poduck traffic bugsmasher 123bs with you 10 miles south, entering a 45 for runway 37, any traffic in the area please advise, podunk"


Isn't that the right way??



:D:D:D:D
 
FlyNE said:
They also use "with you" nonstop. I wouldn't base my communication methodologies on their teachings. :)
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Gee. And I was told by an "expert" that MSFS was totally realistic. Perhaps even more realistic than (or at least superior to) an actual airplane :rofl:


FWIW - my solution to the original problem is to squawk 1200 and leave the mic. on the hook where it belongs. Hakuna Matata.
 
smigaldi said:
That's bad phraseology??

I use it all the time.


Example:

"Poduck traffic bugsmasher 123bs with you 3 miles north, entering a straight in for runway 2, any traffic in the area please advise, podunk traffic. Tally ho!"


Isn't that the right way??



:D:D:D:D
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There, I fixed it for you. You forgot several of the board's pet peeves. :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
The misuse of "clearance" aside, from this sentence I can't tell whether you understand that FF is not an ATC facility. its a service provided by an ATC facility. The ATC facility providing FF services could be Center, Tracon (approach/departure), or even a Tower.
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Maybe I don't understand the distinction. Don't the various handoffs keep me in contact with the ATC facility controlling that airspace? Or not necessarily?
 
jasc15 said:
Maybe I don't understand the distinction. Don't the various handoffs keep me in contact with the ATC facility controlling that airspace? Or not necessarily?
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If everything works as it should the answer to your question is probably. Keep in mind that FF is not positive control. It is optional to all parties involved and is merely advisory. As such, if they get busy doing other things they can and will drop you or can simply forget about you.
 
roncachamp said:
The AIM states:

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."

If some simple courtesy isn't necessary to leave tower frequency in Class E airspace, why should it be extended to leave a center frequency when VFR in Class E airspace?
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When you leave Class D airspace, the tower is no longer expecting to hear from you.

When you have been on a discrete transponder code and receiving ongoing advisories from a Center frequency in Class E airspace the controller does expect to hear from you until one of you says goodbye and not have you simply disappear.
 
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jasc15 said:
Maybe I don't understand the distinction. Don't the various handoffs keep me in contact with the ATC facility controlling that airspace? Or not necessarily?
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The way it was phrased -

"through FF rather than directly from approach"

left me the impression that you thought of them as two completely different things when, depending on where you are, FF =is= Approach.

It sounded like you thought your initial call up would start with

"Flight Following. N1234X"
rather than
"[Name of an appropriate ATC Facility]. N1234X"

That may not be what you were saying, but that how your words hit me.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The way it was phrased -

"through FF rather than directly from approach"

left me the impression that you thought of them as two completely different things when, depending on where you are, FF =is= Approach.

It sounded like you thought your initial call up would start with

"Flight Following. N1234X"
rather than
"[Name of an appropriate ATC Facility]. N1234X"

That may not be what you were saying, but that how your words hit me.
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I see. My mistake. In my case, I call NY approach to get FF.
 
midlifeflyer said:
When you leave Class D airspace, the tower is no longer expecting to hear from you.

When you have been on a discrete transponder code and receiving ongoing advisories from a Center frequency in Class E airspace the controller does expect to hear from you until one of you says goodbye and not have you simply disappear.
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If I'm approaching Class C airspace I have left the center controller's airspace. If a handoff has not been missed, and if the center controller hasn't forgotten about me, and if I'm not NORDO, then why hasn't he said goodbye already?
 
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Can I venture down a small tangent? Cheyenne seems to appreciate a "hi howyadoin? We're transiting overhead your airspace and not gonna mess with your traffic" radio call, while, at Jeffco ... ur, the "airport formerly known as Jeffco" it seems to depend on who's in the tower ... some appreciate the call, while others seem really irritated "you're not in my space, don't bother me" ...

so, how many do a courtesy call if you're overflying?
 
gkainz said:
Can I venture down a small tangent? Cheyenne seems to appreciate a "hi howyadoin? We're transiting overhead your airspace and not gonna mess with your traffic" radio call, while, at Jeffco ... ur, the "airport formerly known as Jeffco" it seems to depend on who's in the tower ... some appreciate the call, while others seem really irritated "you're not in my space, don't bother me" ...

so, how many do a courtesy call if you're overflying?
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I don't do it as a rule (btw, at Jeffco/Metro a LOA between BJC Tower and DEN TRACON gives DEN Approach control of the higher altitudes =within= the Class D). I don't find that Class D towers generally care about aircraft that is not inside their airspace and, especially at busy ones, it's more of a bother than a help.

There are exceptions. Different strokes applies to controllers as well.

Cheyenne, although a simple Class D has its own Approach Control station and, since they can see you anyway probably like the call (although I wonder why, if you're passing outside the D, you don't think Cheyenne Approach would be more appropriate than the Tower). Pueblo Approach always liked to hear from you as well even though it's not technically necessary.

The other exception - an airport that's just a Tower without Approach Control - is Eagle (KEGE) in the mountains. Perhaps because they deal with commuter traffic and don't have radar coverage, they appreciate calls by passing VFR traffic and, if you do call in, will actively engage you, asking you to report position as you fly by.
 
roncachamp said:
If I'm approaching Class C airspace I have left the center controller's airspace. If a handoff has not been missed, and if the center controller hasn't forgotten about me, and if I'm not NORDO, then why hasn't he said goodbye already?
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And if a handoff has been missed, what's the evil downside of Jesse's prompting of "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?" instead of dropping him like a hot potato, even if he might deserve it by forgetting about you?
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Cheyenne, although a simple Class D has its own Approach Control station and, since they can see you anyway probably like the call (although I wonder why, if you're passing outside the D, you don't think Cheyenne Approach would be more appropriate than the Tower).
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Exactly right, Mark. I typed too quickly - Cheyenne Approach.
 
midlifeflyer said:
And if a handoff has been missed, what's the evil downside of Jesse's prompting of "center, should 81869 remain with you into the charlie?" instead of dropping him like a hot potato, even if he might deserve it by forgetting about you?
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Well, if while you're trying to contact center you enter Class C airspace you've busted FAR 91.130. Is that evil enough?
 
roncachamp said:
Well, if while you're trying to contact center you enter Class C airspace you've busted FAR 91.130. Is that evil enough?
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91.130 (c) (1) said:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
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I see nothing that says it must be "Approach" control or "TRACON" to be legal. If you're talking to ATC, IMHO, you're legal.
 
SkyHog said:
I see nothing that says it must be "Approach" control or "TRACON" to be legal. If you're talking to ATC, IMHO, you're legal.
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So if I depart Santa Fe and stay on tower frequency I'm authorized to enter the Albuquerque Class C airspace? You mean "the ATC facility providing air traffic services" does not mean the facility responsible for the Class C airspace? It means any ATC facility?
 
Here's an Interpretation from the Chief Counsel's office that seems to fit the thread.

Read it and take from it what you will.
 

Attachments

roncachamp said:
Well, if while you're trying to contact center you enter Class C airspace you've busted FAR 91.130. Is that evil enough?
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So, let's see, we've gone from in Class E to approaching Class C to entering the Class C.

Yep, if you keep changing the scenario you'll eventually end up right. :mad2:
 
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midlifeflyer said:
So, let's see, we've gone from in Class E to approaching Class C to entering the Class C.

Yep, if you keep changing the scenario you'll eventually end up right. :mad2:
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Post #5:

"That's correct, but if you're approaching the Smallville Class C airspace and you're receiving flight following from Metropolis Center, something ain't kosher."

The scenario hasn't changed, you've just taken too many blows to the head. :yesnod:
 
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