always too high on final....how to fix

[Stewartb]

Power is required to maintain high AOA. A guy wouldn't need as much power for a tyical runway landing but he should understand the concept just the same. It doesn't matter if a guy is a student or a stud, airspeed control is imperative to make quality landings. If a guy doesn't have command of approach airspeeds he needs to go up and do lots of slow flight with different flap settings and throttle settings to remedy the issue.

 

[noobJohn]

LOTS of people say that, and I can only conclude from it that such people only land on 6000 foot runways.

Exagggerate much? Not sure how you go from "a little high" to failure to land. Fly the plane. I'm not suggesting you intentionally fly poorly but if something is out of whack fix it. Is a power off 180 landing a horrible pattern or good practice in energy management?

 

[jordane93]

If the student is struggling with making normal approaches I'd suggest he get those down before adding another technique.

 

[noobJohn]

Sorry...... It's tough to communicate on the internet sometimes. To the OP, relax and listen to your instructor. My 2 cents wasn't to encourage flying bizarre patterns but was meant to reinforce the RELAX portion. Early on I was so diligent in trying to fly the perfect pattern that I'd get a little discombobulated if everything wasn't working out perfectly. We all strive for perfection and deal with reality.

 

[danhagan]

Come in low and use power to get to the runway will work, although it takes some skill to do it. Don't get too slow...

Drag it in baby!

To the OP: Stick with a set RPM. Only "glance" at ASI on final and later have your CFI cover that up. Use your side windows the same as the front on base leg and adjust accordingly. Once I was improving, my old CFI used to pull power and force an immediate adjustment power off approach to the runway. You don't want to have to create a 747 pattern for a 172 in order to land ... and if you ever lose an engine, you should be in position to correct and still land on pavement.

 

[yetti]

The throttle makes the plane go up. The throttle makes the plane go down. Less throttle will get you to not be so high.

 

[MAKG1]

Exagggerate much? Not sure how you go from "a little high" to failure to land. Fly the plane. I'm not suggesting you intentionally fly poorly but if something is out of whack fix it. Is a power off 180 landing a horrible pattern or good practice in energy management?

If he needs to slip to land a 172, he's much more than a "little" high.

A power off 180 is a terrible pattern if the intention was to fly downwind, base, and final.

 

[EdFred]

If he needs to slip to land a 172, he's much more than a "little" high.

A power off 180 is a terrible pattern if the intention was to fly downwind, base, and final.

Not sure why someone needs a 1/2 mile base leg and why that makes a "good" pattern.

 

[midcap]

I guess I am still nervous about taking the power out too soon, but I guess I can always add it back in.

 

[MAKG1]

Not sure why someone needs a 1/2 mile base leg and why that makes a "good" pattern.

The same reason we have patterns at all. It's for organizing the final approach sequence and presenting a visible target to other aircraft.

What makes it "good" is that the intent was executed. If you mean to fly a 1/2 mile pattern and you end up extending 2 miles 'cause you're too fast and the aircraft won't descend, that's a mistake.

 

[Mike Smith]

Not sure why someone needs a 1/2 mile base leg and why that makes a "good" pattern.

1/2 mile? Do people really fly patterns that large or are you exaggerating? Maybe i am doing it wrong, but my base leg is usually just about long enough to get wings level and get a good look out the window for traffic, then Im turning final.

 

[MAKG1]

I guess I am still nervous about taking the power out too soon, but I guess I can always add it back in.

This seems likely. Yes, you can always add some power. Much of learning to approach is overcoming the fear of being too low and slow. You need to get slow to land.

 

[midcap]

Not sure why someone needs a 1/2 mile base leg and why that makes a "good" pattern.

1/2 mile? Do people really fly patterns that large or are you exaggerating? Maybe i am doing it wrong, but my base leg is usually just about long enough to get wings level and get a good look out the window for traffic, then Im turning final.

CFI said when the beginning of the runway is at a 45deg angle over your shoulder you should turn final

I think that If I reduce power, and just let the plane do what it wants to do with the base to final turn I should be able to lose enough altitude to be low enough where I need to be.

I think I am not taking advantage of the turn's inherent ability to lose altitude.

 

[midcap]

This seems likely. Yes, you can always add some power. Much of learning to approach is overcoming the fear of being too low and slow. You need to get slow to land.

probably right, I think my next lesson will involve pattern work, with a lot of touch and go's.

 

[Mike Smith]

When its 45 degrees over your shoulder you should turn BASE. I pull power to 1800, notch of flaps, pitch up slightly to lose speed but not climb, get to 80, look for the runway and turn base. If im long ill put in a pinch of power, notch of flaps, or not according to how long. If im short, i go to idle notch of flaps, or full flaps if im real short. Turn final, pick out my aim spot (ive already trimmed for 80) and use power as needed to hit my spot.

 

[MAKG1]

CFI said when the beginning of the runway is at a 45deg angle over your shoulder you should turn final

I think that If I reduce power, and just let the plane do what it wants to do with the base to final turn I should be able to lose enough altitude to be low enough where I need to be.

I think I am not taking advantage of the turn's inherent ability to lose altitude.

The 45 deg angle becomes a 1/2 mile pattern if you fly the downwind 1/2 mile from the runway. It's a LITTLE far, but honestly close enough.

If you're holding it level in a turn without adding power, you're slowing down. But it's really not much of a factor unless your turns are pretty steep. If you really are slowing down on the base to final turn, that's a problem. Don't do that.

More than likely, you're just fast, perhaps trying to descend clean. Clean 172s don't like to descend much until slower than best glide.

You turn base with the numbers at 45. When turning final, they should be pretty close to directly right or left.

 

[EdFred]

1/2 mile? Do people really fly patterns that large or are you exaggerating? Maybe i am doing it wrong, but my base leg is usually just about long enough to get wings level and get a good look out the window for traffic, then Im turning final.

Yes, people really do. And they don't have to, nor should they in a 172. But because their cfi "told them so" they keep flying unnecessarily large patterns.

 

[Caramon13]

Yes, people really do. And they don't have to, nor should they in a 172. But because their cfi "told them so" they keep flying unnecessarily large patterns.

I was doing T&G's at a local airport and I kid you not, there was a high wing at LEAST mile out for base. I'm thinking..uh..I could have landed twice by now. I live in FL and down here there's a lot of guys that do that. Dunno why..it's pretty stupid.

To the OP, it's easy to lose altitude in some of the older low wings. Going from those to a 172 took me some getting used to again. I did actually have to slip a couple to get in, but that's no big deal. Just fly at a lower power setting and if you're too high pull the yoke back and slow it down. If you pitch down you'll get the opposite effect of what you want: faster speed which means longer float, means go around.

An instructor showed me the whole "yoke back" trick and I thought I was going to overfly but once we got settled the airspeed bled off, vertical speed increased and we made it in fine. Had to pitch down a bit and bump the throttle over the threshold a bit, but worked well.

 

[midcap]

The 45 deg angle becomes a 1/2 mile pattern if you fly the downwind 1/2 mile from the runway. It's a LITTLE far, but honestly close enough.

If you're holding it level in a turn without adding power, you're slowing down. But it's really not much of a factor unless your turns are pretty steep. If you really are slowing down on the base to final turn, that's a problem. Don't do that.

More than likely, you're just fast, perhaps trying to descend clean. Clean 172s don't like to descend much until slower than best glide.

You turn base with the numbers at 45. When turning final, they should be pretty close to directly right or left.

So I just keep it flying until I make my turn to final and then start taking out power.

I think we normally land with 20 degrees of flaps.

I really need to remember what speed the CFI wants me to be at, he always tells me but I need to remember it. I think best climb is 75kts and 65kts maybe where I should be on final.

 

[MAKG1]

Talk to your instructor, of course, but I suggest managing airspeed with pitch. Just let it descend. You'll want your power pulled back early. I think that may be your problem. I'll start my descent by pulling power to 1500 RPM abeam the numbers on downwind. Generally I'll pitch for 500 FPM, but if the airspeed is low for whatever reason (say, a downdraft), that wins.

65 knots on final is OK, but a bit on the fast side. You'll land better if your final airspeed is close to the slow end of the range, and using full flaps.

The ONLY time I'll land with partial flaps is if it's gusty as heck, I'm carrying ice, or perhaps if they are broken. Or if I have an ornery instructor on board who "fails" my electrical system.

 

[midcap]

Talk to your instructor, of course, but I suggest managing airspeed with pitch. Just let it descend. You'll want your power pulled back early. I think that may be your problem. I'll start my descent by pulling power to 1500 RPM abeam the numbers on downwind. Generally I'll pitch for 500 FPM, but if the airspeed is low for whatever reason (say, a downdraft), that wins.

65 knots on final is OK, but a bit on the fast side. You'll land better if your final airspeed is close to the slow end of the range, and using full flaps.

The ONLY time I'll land with partial flaps is if it's gusty as heck, I'm carrying ice, or perhaps if they are broken. Or if I have an ornery instructor on board who "fails" my electrical system.

oh ok, well that makes sense because on every landing I was above 60kts. I was also probably wrong about only have 20 degress of flaps then.

 

[danhagan]

If he needs to slip to land a 172, he's much more than a "little" high.

A power off 180 is a terrible pattern if the intention was to fly downwind, base, and final.

Not sure how to respond to that response ... it's one or the other ... soon after PPL it'll be straight in finals at high speed and overhead breaks anyway

 

[hockeyrcks9901]

Talk to your instructor, of course, but I suggest managing airspeed with pitch. Just let it descend. You'll want your power pulled back early. I think that may be your problem. I'll start my descent by pulling power to 1500 RPM abeam the numbers on downwind. Generally I'll pitch for 500 FPM, but if the airspeed is low for whatever reason (say, a downdraft), that wins.

65 knots on final is OK, but a bit on the fast side. You'll land better if your final airspeed is close to the slow end of the range, and using full flaps.

The ONLY time I'll land with partial flaps is if it's gusty as heck, I'm carrying ice, or perhaps if they are broken. Or if I have an ornery instructor on board who "fails" my electrical system.

oh ok, well that makes sense because on every landing I was above 60kts. I was also probably wrong about only have 20 degress of flaps then.

My instructor is teaching pretty much what MAKG1 is saying.

Abeam the numbers: pull power back to roughly 1,500 rpm and add 10 degree of flaps. Slow to 70ish and hold. Let the plan descend however it wants. Roughly 500 fpm

Turn to base at 45* from the numbers and go to 20* flaps. Pitch down to maintain 70 kts.

Turn to final add flaps to 40*. Pitch down again to maintain about 65-70 kts until the runway is made.

Then power to idle and flare until the wheels touch. Stall horn is just starting to squeal. I don't know final airspeed there but 60 is definitely too fast.


Sounds like your not removing power early enough nor are you letting it bleed off in the flare. I had a problem with not wanting to let the speed bleed off in the flare too but with time it's gotten better.

I'll also add that a lot of the other people are right that the exact numbers aren't important, that's why I said "roughly" and "about" a few times above. There is a lot of going by feel and judgement here with what adjustments need to be made. Sometimes adding or removing power, sometimes changing pitch, sometimes a slip, crabbing for wind, slipping for wind, etc etc.

 

[hockeyrcks9901]

So I just keep it flying until I make my turn to final and then start taking out power.

Definitely not. Power needs to start coming back way earlier than final.

 

[jordane93]

oh ok, well that makes sense because on every landing I was above 60kts. I was also probably wrong about only have 20 degress of flaps then.

What was your instructor's reasoning behind only adding flaps 20?

 

[Jimmy cooper]

What was your instructor's reasoning behind only adding flaps 20?

Because he's landing on a 6500 foot runway!!! It's too short! He needs a lot of dual. He should feel at ease on a 2000 ft. Runway! On 6500 ft. Runwy, in a 172, you really need no flaps at all!! This basically a training air plane.

 

[midcap]

What was your instructor's reasoning behind only adding flaps 20?

Now you guys got me, I'm not sure how much we added.

I'm gonna take a pic of the check list next lesson so I can learn it by memory

 

[jordane93]

Now you guys got me, I'm not sure how much we added.

I'm gonna take a pic of the check list next lesson so I can learn it by memory

Were you landing with partial flaps or full flaps?

 

[coma24]

ask them to raise the runway a little more?

 

[mscard88]

Come in low and use power to get to the runway will work, although it takes some skill to do it. Don't get too slow...

Not really something I would teach a student to do. TRIM is your friend. When you reach the airspeed you desire, trim it for that speed, say 80 abeam the numbers for example. Then as you add flaps and slow even further, trim trim trim.

 

[bobmrg]

Now you guys got me, I'm not sure how much we added.

I'm gonna take a pic of the check list next lesson so I can learn it by memory

Yes and no. The throttle and flap handle/switch are tools, and any good craftsman learns how to use the tools available to get the desired result. Don't get hung up on the idea that there is only one way to do something and experiment.

Professional pilots do not memorize their checklists...they do them one item at a time, day after day, in an airplane they could fly in their sleep. "Failure to use checklist" is a factor in many accident reports.

Bob Gardner

 

[Cooter]

Now you guys got me, I'm not sure how much we added.

I'm gonna take a pic of the check list next lesson so I can learn it by memory

I did a brief skim through these posts, but has your instructor or anyone else mentioned ground reference points? It wont be hard to find a couple of references on the ground and assign altitudes to those points. Find one so that you turn base at the same point each pattern, then a point on base to reference your altitude against. You can take a quick peak at your altitude when you make your final turn and cross check it with the VASI. All this assumes you manage your speeds appropriately.

 

[unsafervguy]

I did a brief skim through these posts, but has your instructor or anyone else mentioned ground reference points? It wont be hard to find a couple of references on the ground and assign altitudes to those points. Find one so that you turn base at the same point each pattern, then a point on base to reference your altitude against. You can take a quick peak at your altitude when you make your final turn and cross check it with the VASI. All this assumes you manage your speeds appropriately.

I do not recommend that. It subconsciously links a pattern to the points on the ground when you need to develop how to be where you want by reference to the runway. By teaching that method the student goes back to square one the first time they are at a different airport. Also, turning base at a certain point does not teach how to adjust for different wind conditions. The trick is to learn how to visualize the decent around the whole pattern and apply the tools you have (pitch,power, and drag) to put the aircraft where you want it to be at the energy state you want it at.

Bob

 

[korben88]

Not to get off topic or high jack the tread, but my issue is with gaging whether I am high, low, or on glide slope.

Any advice on how to better estimate my agl?

 

[Mike Smith]

Not to get off topic or high jack the tread, but my issue is with gaging whether I am high, low, or on glide slope.

Any advice on how to better estimate my agl?

Repetitian

 

[FastEddieB]

On 6500 ft. Runwy, in a 172, you really need no flaps at all!!

Well, I'll agree that a 172 does not need any flaps on a 6,500' runway.

But I think the goal of landing a GA aircraft is to land with minimal energy, regardless of runway length.

So, my mantra is...

1) Use maximum flaps as consistent with conditions (and manufacturers recommendations), and...

2) To land at approximately stall speed, which all Private Pilots had to demonstrate the ability to do to get their licenses. Again, conditions permitting.

Anyway, that's held me - and my students - in good stead for many, many years.

 

[RyanB]

Also, the more you practice your approaches and landings you will get a certain sight picture in your mind of where you need to be and what looks 'normal'.

 

[Cooter]

I do not recommend that. It subconsciously links a pattern to the points on the ground when you need to develop how to be where you want by reference to the runway. By teaching that method the student goes back to square one the first time they are at a different airport.

I disagree, and you really don't understand the method. It is a good tool to put them consistently in the right window so that they can develop the right power settings and sight picture. If you have airport elevation, the you simply figure out the other numbers. The ground references are just there to help you tighten up the window. It is much more precise than just flying a power setting and airspeed because it provides for corrections all the way to final glide path. What kind of sight picture do you think he's developed the way he's going? The sight picture will come much quicker if he develops consistency early on.

Also, turning base at a certain point does not teach how to adjust for different wind conditions.

You simply adjust for winds, it's not hard.

 

[Cooter]

Not to get off topic or high jack the tread, but my issue is with gaging whether I am high, low, or on glide slope.

Any advice on how to better estimate my agl?

Use your altimeter. Calculate a number off of TDZE and assign it a place in the pattern (like base just prior to final turn). Fly to that altitude, and on subsequent passes figure out what VSI is needed to get there. Then when you turn off of downwind, you can set that VSI to get you there. But, this assumes you have the same starting point each time or you will need to adjust your numbers slightly.

 

[jordane93]

Not to get off topic or high jack the tread, but my issue is with gaging whether I am high, low, or on glide slope.

Any advice on how to better estimate my agl?

I like to use the 3 to 1 rule. If you are 5 miles out you should be roughly at 1500ft. Keep the runway the same "width" and length. If the runway is getting narrower, you're getting too high. If the runway is getting fatter and wider, you're getting too low. Be careful of runway width illusions as well.