Always consider consequences of behavior

A tax policy discussion on PoA? I can't believe it.

And undoing the 24th amendment by reinstating poll taxes? Heresy, I tell you!

Who's got the lock?
 
Palmpilot said:
The flaw in this line of reasoning is that income tax is not the only type of tax, and furthermore, taxation is not the only impact that government has on people. Most laws have nothing to do with taxation, some going so far as having the potential to deprive people of life or liberty.
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I’d be interested in your analysis that shows “most” laws have nothing to do with taxation. On the surface, it would appear that every law written needs an enforcer and that enforcer needs taxes to do their job, so one could argue that every law has to do with taxes. Just feeding the people (calling leeches people, is a stretch, but I’ll allow it) that create them, costs something, too. But I know, lobbyists sometimes buy their lunch. ;)
 
Rushie said:
My serious answer is that I have a problem with people who pay no taxes but receive great benefits from taxes being allowed to vote at all. That's why I feel everyone, even the poorest, need to pay something, even if it's only pennies, or they don't vote. Otherwise the incentive is just to vote yourself more and more of other people's money.
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That happens all the time, even among people who pay taxes.
 
Ravioli said:
Who's got the lock?
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I do!

Star_Trek_-_In_Before_the_Lock.gif
 
Rushie said:
My serious answer is that I have a problem with people who pay no taxes but receive great benefits from taxes being allowed to vote at all. That's why I feel everyone, even the poorest, need to pay something, even if it's only pennies, or they don't vote. Otherwise the incentive is just to vote yourself more and more of other people's money.
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Your solution would not solve that problem, because it would not remove the incentive to vote oneself "more and more of other people's money" unless graduated income taxes were banned. It also seems rather arbitrary to decide that financial interests are the only ones deserving of being protected by a right to vote.

It's probably a moot discussion anyway. Given the recognition of voting rights by both Congress and the courts, it would no doubt take a constitutional amendment to implement, and considering the supermajorities required to do that, it seems extremely unlikely.
 
Only pedigreed land owners with four vehicles and an airplane shall vote, from now on. :)

Damn, I’m not pedigreed. LOL. I’m just a mutt. Oh well. ;) ;) ;)

Time to make the coffee and feed the slaves. They’re kinda useless as far as slaves go. They’re out running around the yard barking the neighbors.

And I don’t own the land anyway... want proof? Let me just stop paying property taxes on it and we’ll see if it’s really just a rental.
 
denverpilot said:
I’d be interested in your analysis that shows “most” laws have nothing to do with taxation. On the surface, it would appear that every law written needs an enforcer and that enforcer needs taxes to do their job, so one could argue that every law has to do with taxes. Just feeding the people (calling leeches people, is a stretch, but I’ll allow it) that create them, costs something, too. But I know, lobbyists sometimes buy their lunch. ;)
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That's true, but the point I was trying to make is that there are many ways besides taxation that government affects people, so it's not true that people who aren't taxed have "no skin in the game."
 
Palmpilot said:
That's true, but the point I was trying to make is that there are many ways besides taxation that government affects people.
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Well for me personally, politicians make me sneeze. Usually while covering up me saying “bull****” during said sneeze. ;)
 
Palmpilot said:
Even the homeless pay sales taxes.
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I love this absolutely MORONIC argument.

In actual Economic theory... people with low or no income spend the majority of the money they come in contact with on housing, food, and sorry, probably liquor, cigarettes, and drugs. Housing and drugs are never taxed. Food, liquor, and cigarettes are taxed. (the later two HEAVILY taxed but they are an opt-in option).

Meanwhile, the money they come in contact with comes primarily either directly from the taxpayers giving the handouts OR indirectly from those who pay taxes via government assistance.

So... if we want to HELP the homeless, we should abolish Liquor and Cigarette taxes? Let's get rid of gasoline taxes too, since as they become potentially taxable people instead of wards of the state they might get a car and can't be paying all that tax that just gets wasted on road construction and highway safety. Can't ask those people to pay for that.

Oh, yah... Where do sales taxes go? LOCALLY. So what does it have to do with federal income tax policy in the first place?

See y'all in 30 days or so.
 
denverpilot said:
That’s sad. Taxing food. Politicians must need the money really bad for their lifestyles and big dinner parties. What scum.
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You never noticed the grocery bill in Colorado? Prepared foods for immediate consumption is taxed, while foods that need to be prepared/cooked in some manner are either not taxed or lower tax, depending on the city.
 
murphey said:
You never noticed the grocery bill in Colorado? Prepared foods for immediate consumption is taxed, while foods that need to be prepared/cooked in some manner are either not taxed or lower tax, depending on the city.
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I have. I already have said “raw foods” numerous times in the thread. I don’t mind the prepared food thing. It’s slimy, but it’s more tolerable than taxing raw foodstuffs.
 
Everskyward said:
That happens all the time, even among people who pay taxes.
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This is part of the problem with indexed tax tables. A flat tax, a limit on all private earnings of congress while serving and ten years after and a balanced budget amendment would go a long way to stopping the madness that occurs today in Washington.
 
PaulS said:
This is part of the problem with indexed tax tables. A flat tax, a limit on all private earnings of congress while serving and ten years after and a balanced budget amendment would go a long way to stopping the madness that occurs today in Washington.
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All true, but you’ll never see it. Too many people have power and jobs from said madness. They don’t have any real skills that create or maintain anything others need, so they’d be a problem for the rest of us, if they didn’t have something “important” to do like mess with laws and count beans all day.
 
denverpilot said:
I have. I already have said “raw foods” numerous times in the thread. I don’t mind the prepared food thing. It’s slimy, but it’s more tolerable than taxing raw foodstuffs.
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How do feel about soda taxes? :D
 
Palmpilot said:
The flaw in this line of reasoning is that income tax is not the only type of tax, and furthermore, taxation is not the only impact that government has on people. Most laws have nothing to do with taxation, some going so far as having the potential to deprive people of life or liberty.
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I understand your position but respectfully disagree.
 
Unless you are talking about corporations passing the taxes they pay onto their customers.
 
denverpilot said:
I’d be interested in your analysis that shows “most” laws have nothing to do with taxation. On the surface, it would appear that every law written needs an enforcer and that enforcer needs taxes to do their job, so one could argue that every law has to do with taxes.
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Pfft. I'll go one better.

In the county where I live now, either the homeowner OR a contractor can pull permits. On a single-family residential, the owner can do the work him/herself, if they choose. But the county "most strongly urges" the homeowner to have a contractor pull permits so the county can "use it's power to help avoid or resolve disputes".

One of the first steps in the county's permit process is to verify the contractor's license and "ensure that the contractor has paid their taxes".

Another place I lived required that permits be pulled by a contractor. First step in processing the permit was to verify the contractor's license and tax status.

We're talking bureaucratic process, not a "law" per se.
 
mscard88 said:
They do but usually move HQs or other 'legal' ways to get out from paying them.
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That’s just taking a different government and politicians up on a better offer. They’re still paying, just not to the government some people want them to.

It’s not really all that significant, their staff still pays roughly half of what the company pays them to the government who is miffed and wants more.

Plus businesses generally only pay on profits, individuals pay on income whether they’re making a profit or not.

We had to show some idiots this math recently out here in my neighborhood who thought the city allowing a single pot shop would pay for all the roads in the County.

Yeah, um... okay... so we showed them the math of the most profitable “pot shop” ever, including that it paid zero rent, and had no COGS whatsoever. It had free pot and a free building to sell it from...

And the taxes collected, wouldn’t have paid for one mile of road. LOL.

The whole “companies should pay more taxes” is just a distraction to keep the emotional who can’t do basic math from noticing they pay for the vast majority of taxes, not businesses. From their salary. That’s just how the system is set up.

If a company is doing well, the staff is paying all ten or so taxes on their paycheck, sales tax on nearly everything they buy from that already taxed money, property taxes and fees on everything they own after buying the stuff, and taxes on any profits made for saving instead of spending.

The company just passes all of that along to the buyer of their product... who pays more sales taxes, and property taxes and fees... ad nauseam.
 
denverpilot said:
Plus businesses generally only pay on profits, individuals pay on income whether they’re making a profit or not.
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More and more, states and localities are charging "gross receipts tax" on businesses. Some are even charging "global gross receipts tax".
 
wsuffa said:
Pfft. I'll go one better.

In the county where I live now, either the homeowner OR a contractor can pull permits. On a single-family residential, the owner can do the work him/herself, if they choose. But the county "most strongly urges" the homeowner to have a contractor pull permits so the county can "use it's power to help avoid or resolve disputes".

One of the first steps in the county's permit process is to verify the contractor's license and "ensure that the contractor has paid their taxes".

Another place I lived required that permits be pulled by a contractor. First step in processing the permit was to verify the contractor's license and tax status.

We're talking bureaucratic process, not a "law" per se.
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Don’t forget the permit “fee” (tax) paid that doesn’t cover the salaries of the bureaucracy which are actually paid for by property taxes, loans, and often grants from the State in county budgets.

And the business fee for the contractor to operate the business.

And because State money is “free!” in the minds of County planners, which of course, just means they’re spending money the person being “served” by the bureaucracy paid to the State, as well as the State’s bigger loans and Federal grants...

Which the “served” also paid for out of their salary and big loans stacked up to $30T and climbing because the Feds don’t have anyone to get a grant from. LOL...

The Feds and the State and the County and the Municipality usually toss people in jail who run Ponzi schemes that big, unless they’re paying them their cut. Haha.

It’s such a big Ponzi scheme, you can’t even draw a decent diagram of it. Because even the government workers that work for the Ponzi scheme, pay back into the scheme.

It’s actually really impressive when you look at it that way. Only humans could possibly come up with such a mess to get something done.

The fact that the rest of the planet let’s us float $30T and thinks we’re good for it, is even more impressive.

Ceasar must be proud. His empire fell, but numerous others popped up to try the same stuff. They just obfuscated it more. It’s best if the tax collectors and the accountants are as poor as everyone else. That was his real mistake. :)
 
wsuffa said:
More and more, states and localities are charging "gross receipts tax" on businesses. Some are even charging "global gross receipts tax".
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That’ll spur business growth. LOL.

I definitely want to start a business in that world, don’t you? Make some products? Do some services? Help some folks out? Go bankrupt...

Sounds awesome. ‘Merica!

Oh wait... my flight training business is already over ten grand in the hole. Hahaha.

Maybe I should pay some taxes on the gross receipts so far. That’ll help get it off the ground. ;)
 
wsuffa said:
More and more, states and localities are charging "gross receipts tax" on businesses. Some are even charging "global gross receipts tax".
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"Democracy" seems to be missing.
 
paflyer said:
It's taking by threatened force. If that's not theft, then what is?
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All laws are supported by the threat of force. The reasoning above implies that all laws are crime.
 
paflyer said:
No they don't, it's passed on.
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There you go, but the problem with that is when they face competition from companies in countries with much lower income taxes they can't pass it on, they need to figure out a way around it or they go under.
 
I'm happy Bruce caught this perp.
The main reason I retired from the NAVY was the drug usage going on. After my retirement ceremony, the skipper ran the dogs on the squadron and busted 21 sailors. 2 were JOs
 
Palmpilot said:
All laws are supported by the threat of force. The reasoning above implies that all laws are crime.
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Governments write laws such that they can commit what otherwise would be crimes, with no consequences. There’s nothing new there.

Law Enforcement don’t carry personal liability insurance. They already have it via laws exempting them from that, which nobody but politicians voted for.

In other words, you can make anything not a crime for yourself, if you write the law.

Secret FISA courts and lack of due process for “terrorists”? Sure, why not... we all voted for that, right? Just one example.

Congress exempting itself from insider trading regulations? Yeah, we all voted for that one in our “democracy” too, I’m sure.

Hell, their pay raises. We don’t even vote for those. Think any of them actually deserves one for stellar job performance? LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
Governments write laws such that they can commit what otherwise would be crimes, with no consequences. There’s nothing new there.

Law Enforcement don’t carry personal liability insurance. They already have it via laws exempting them from that, which nobody but politicians voted for.

In other words, you can make anything not a crime for yourself, if you write the law.

Secret FISA courts and lack of due process for “terrorists”? Sure, why not... we all voted for that, right? Just one example.

Congress exempting itself from insider trading regulations? Yeah, we all voted for that one in our “democracy” too, I’m sure.

Hell, their pay raises. We don’t even vote for those. Think any of them actually deserves one for stellar job performance? LOL.
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A FISA warrant request has NEVER been denied.
 
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