Alternator hosed on night flight

[eman1200]

Went up last night with a pilot bud to get our night currency. Lost the radios. Recycled master avionics, panel came back. Decided to head back home (we were real close, about 10-12nm). Sure enough, full electrical outage, we had nothing but a black panel.

What we did have, though, were:

- two calm, low-time pilots who worked together as a team, came up with a plan (and a backup plan), and executed it. good communication the whole time.

- a backup handheld radio, which just paid for itself 10 times over after one use.

- a "backup" tablet with garmin pilot, which just paid for itself 10 times over after this use.

- multiple flashlights which all paid for themselves.

I know some of you will shrug this off as a non-event, but for us low-timers it was elevated pressure putting us to the test, and we passed! Incredible learning experience for us both, figured I'd share.

Biggest downer of the entire escapade.........plane isn't available for the flight we planned to take today to the Runway Café at Downtown Greenville (KGMU), SC.

 

[Pbtx0]

Way to be prepared and stay calm. How was your landing without the landing light?

 

[ipengineer]

Encountered the same event when I was in training; I think it was my third or fourth lesson. Definitely an attention grabber.

Sounds like y'all handled it well. After that event I realized the importance of a hand-held radio. We were in class Delta airspace..

 

[JasonM]

Good Job Brother! I'm sure it was nice having another pilot next to you in that situation. How well did the handheld radio work and which one do you have?

 

[eman1200]

Way to be prepared and stay calm. How was your landing without the landing light?

the landing itself was fine, no issue but we did 2 go-arounds because the winds started kicking up pretty good and we didn't like the approaches. approaches into wilgrove (8a6) need to be close to perfect during the day, at night you better be Spot ON.

 

[eman1200]

Good Job Brother! I'm sure it was nice having another pilot next to you in that situation. How well did the handheld radio work and which one do you have?

thanks! the handheld is my buds, it's not a great one but got the job done. I'll ask him what model it is. I made all the radio calls and worked flashlights and the tablet while he flew the plane. we had our headsets off at that time, as they were pretty much useless. departing the Class Delta I could hear tower fine (holding the handheld up to my ear), coming into wilgrove I had a little trouble hearing the manager (his house is right next to the field and he monitors the frequency often) but he said we sounded fine, no extra background noise.

 

[Archammer]

Well done!!!

 

[JoeSelch]

Did the alternator give notice that it was offline?

 

[eman1200]

Did the alternator give notice that it was offline?

as part of every flight, as per checklist, I do a quick 'alternator check'...flip the landing light on and confirm the amp meter bumps up slightly, which it did on this flight.

during the flight, the radio started getting 'fuzzy' and quickly progressed to just muffled static, we couldn't understand each other at all. then, both radios would go out, and shortly after everything went out. we could wait a little bit, then recycle the master avionics and we'd temporarily get the panel back, but at one point the amp meter was at a solid 0 reading and would not budge a hair no matter what we tried to turn on or off. zero movement on the amp meter needle. at the same time the radios started to fizzle, so did any of the lights we had on, until they all just fizzled out.

 

[Irish_Armada]

Wow great experience and great job on your and your buddy's part. That probably would have been a little more stressful with just one pilot -- troubleshooting, fumbling for the flashlight, handheld, etc -- but sounded like you had the right attitude either way. I'm a pretty new pilot as well but have never had anything as eventful as this happen, I hope I am able to handle it as cooly as you guys did. Did you have a flashlight that you could "wear" to illuminate the panel if you were by yourself, or were they all traditional handhelds? I have a tablet GPS, backup handheld radio, and some flashlights just in case something like this happens, but realize my flashlights are all normal handheld so would have to hold it my mouth or something to fly and keep the panel illuminated... Thinking I should invest in one of those you can hang around your neck.

 

[Bill Watson]

All nicely done. Real good experience.

Very familiar with Wilgrove (and GMU). Yes you have to hit Wilgrove pretty accurately at night and higher winds are rarely straight forward.

I crafted a robust electrical system for my RV10 with 2 alternators and 2 batteries along with two lit, un-dimmable low voltage indicators. For me, the key is to run the two systems independently so that any failures can be seen. Then crossfeed and an event like yours should be a non-event until in the hangar. I don't always carry a backup radio but feel confident without it.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Wow Great Job!!!

 

[eman1200]

....Did you have a flashlight that you could "wear" to illuminate the panel if you were by yourself, or were they all traditional handhelds?... Thinking I should invest in one of those you can hang around your neck.

yes, I had the red light that you can wear on your head, and it was invaluable. I just tilted it slightly towards the panel and it freed up my hands to do other things. highly recommended.

 

[eman1200]

here's what a dark panel looks like:

 

[frfly172]

Good job,just remember,fly the airplane.

 

[olasek]

- multiple flashlights which all paid for themselves.

I prefer to carry chemical light sticks instead.
First they don't need batteries, second the light intensity doesn't interfere with night vision and of course they are very compact and light.

 

[Henning]

Well played. Failures at night are stressful, and should be to an extent, it sharpens you up when you already have 3 links in a 6 link accident chain forged. Technology has added a lot of capability in situational awareness and emergency redundancy, and that is a good thing by any means. You had multiple forms of redundancy so you were well prepared, good on you.

 

[Henning]

I prefer to carry chemical light sticks instead.
First they don't need batteries, second the light intensity doesn't interfere with night vision and of course they are very compact and light.

Yep, I get them in red or amber.

 

[denverpilot]

I prefer to carry chemical light sticks instead.

First they don't need batteries, second the light intensity doesn't interfere with night vision and of course they are very compact and light.

Ooh. Glowing Chemtrails!

 

[N801BH]

Well done!!!

Agreed.......

To the OP..... Hard to believe the battery didn't have the capacity for a few more minutes of juice...

 

[Henning]

Agreed.......

To the OP..... Hard to believe the battery didn't have the capacity for a few more minutes of juice...

Unless a shorted battery is what fried the charging circuit....

 

[N801BH]

Unless a shorted battery is what fried the charging circuit....

True...

 

[Dan Thomas]

Agreed.......

To the OP..... Hard to believe the battery didn't have the capacity for a few more minutes of juice...

Many of those modern radios give up when the voltage drops below 12 volts. I believe it was Jim Weir that told us here that the power supplies in those radios take the ship's power and convert it to some stable voltage for the radio, and when the power drops from the nominal 14 volts, that internal radio supply draws more amperage to keep the radio happy. Makes sense to me, and it would mean an ever-increasing amperage flow as the battery weakens.

I wouldn't fly any airplane at night that doesn't get regular alternator inspections. The biggest single cause of alternator failure I've found is worn-out field brushes. The 500-hour check usually catches that, but we had the brushes fail at 400 hours in the 172SP G1000 airplanes. They use a lot of power, the field has to use more current to keep up, and the brushes burn up faster.

The second biggest cause of failure has been the overhaulers' habit of using too much grease in that rear bearing. It gets out and flies around and lands on the rotor's slip rings and forms a resistive sludge by breaking down the graphite in those brushes. Kelly was bad for that. Some of their new alternators were failing at 15 or 20 hours.

Alternator and mag inspections are cheap insurance.

Dan

 

[Henning]

Wow, I'm surprised that a G-1000 bird doesn't use a brushless alternator.

 

[denverpilot]

Wow, I'm surprised that a G-1000 bird doesn't use a brushless alternator.

I had to go re-read the thread, but I see no hint of G-1000 mentioned anywhere in it.

G-1000 has a separate battery for certain critical things, tested as part of the start checklist. It'll tell you when the alternator drops offline and it's running from that battery if you completely missed half of the panel going dark.

 

[eman1200]

No G1000. We felt the 430 fit our needs better

 

[Henning]

I had to go re-read the thread, but I see no hint of G-1000 mentioned anywhere in it.

G-1000 has a separate battery for certain critical things, tested as part of the start checklist. It'll tell you when the alternator drops offline and it's running from that battery if you completely missed half of the panel going dark.

Read the post directly above mine....

we had the brushes fail at 400 hours in the 172SP G1000 airplanes. They use a lot of power, the field has to use more current to keep up, and the brushes burn up faster.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I had to go re-read the thread, but I see no hint of G-1000 mentioned anywhere in it.

G-1000 has a separate battery for certain critical things, tested as part of the start checklist. It'll tell you when the alternator drops offline and it's running from that battery if you completely missed half of the panel going dark.

I only mentioned the G1000 to point out that alternators have a weak spot: the brushes and slip rings. They need inspecting, and non-G1000 airplanes still use power and those brushes wear out. Flying a lot at night wears them out faster, since the alternator has to generate more power, and the field brushes have to carry more field current to generate that power. More current means more heat and arcing and resultant wear or erosion.

As Henning says, we should have brushless alternators by now. They've had them in large trucks for 30 years. Why not airplanes?

Dan

 

[Twin_Flyer]

Great Job!!! You were prepared and did what needed to be done...

 

[denverpilot]

Read the post directly above mine....

I only mentioned the G1000 to point out that alternators have a weak spot: the brushes and slip rings. They need inspecting, and non-G1000 airplanes still use power and those brushes wear out. Flying a lot at night wears them out faster, since the alternator has to generate more power, and the field brushes have to carry more field current to generate that power. More current means more heat and arcing and resultant wear or erosion.

As Henning says, we should have brushless alternators by now. They've had them in large trucks for 30 years. Why not airplanes?

Dan

Ahh got it. Missed it the first go around.

The answer is simple. FAA.

You can't certify things as cheap as an alternator. Your rate of return is in the negative hundreds of thousands of dollars before you even sell the first one, if you go that route.

 

[Henning]

Ahh got it. Missed it the first go around.

The answer is simple. FAA.

You can't certify things as cheap as an alternator. Your rate of return is in the negative hundreds of thousands of dollars before you even sell the first one, if you go that route.

I put 2 new modern brushless alternators on the 310 for less than the cost of troubleshooting the old generator system. I'm pretty sure all the Plane Power alternators are brushless design and they come with STCs so it's not particularly a challenge.

 

[SPAJC]

Good job!!!! Sucks you won't make it to GMU!!! Love the Runway Cafe!!! I'm a fairly frequent flyer there!


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[weirdjim]

Went up last night with a pilot bud to get our night currency. Lost the radios. Recycled master avionics, panel came back. Decided to head back home (we were real close, about 10-12nm). Sure enough, full electrical outage, we had nothing but a black panel.

Yawn...

 

[Dan Thomas]

I put 2 new modern brushless alternators on the 310 for less than the cost of troubleshooting the old generator system. I'm pretty sure all the Plane Power alternators are brushless design and they come with STCs so it's not particularly a challenge.

I don't see that Plane Power alternators are brushless. They don't claim that anywhere on their website. I put one on a 185 a few weeks ago, and it looked to me a lot like an imported Japanee alternator, very similar to one I took off a Honda Civic some years ago. Good little, lightweight, powerful unit.

Dan

 

[mondtster]

To the OP..... Hard to believe the battery didn't have the capacity for a few more minutes of juice...

I'd bet the battery was old or part of the problem. I've had several electrical issues over the years and always had plenty of capacity left to get done what I needed to.

Charging systems usually start giving you warning signs that problems are coming, I keep a close eye on my ammeter.

Many of those modern radios give up when the voltage drops below 12 volts. I believe it was Jim Weir that told us here that the power supplies in those radios take the ship's power and convert it to some stable voltage for the radio, and when the power drops from the nominal 14 volts, that internal radio supply draws more amperage to keep the radio happy. Makes sense to me, and it would mean an ever-increasing amperage flow as the battery weakens.

I don't know about avionics, but a lot of electronic stuff has a power supply section that will drop the voltage down to 5 volts to run things. Transmitting may not be an option but I'd think you could leave a device powered on for a long time before it would totally quit.

I put 2 new modern brushless alternators on the 310 for less than the cost of troubleshooting the old generator system. I'm pretty sure all the Plane Power alternators are brushless design and they come with STCs so it's not particularly a challenge.

To the best of my knowledge, they aren't brushless...

 

[Dan Thomas]

Charging systems usually start giving you warning signs that problems are coming, I keep a close eye on my ammeter.

When brushes fail they might give warning. The output might get a little weak or intermittent as the brush moves ahead in its holder until the cable starts pulling on it and reducing the contact pressure.

But, more often, the brush gets so short that it suddenly pops right out of the holder and is gone, and the brush spring comes up against the slip ring and arcs and chatters and eats that ring up in a couple of minutes. No warning. At that point you're faced with buying a new alternator instead of replacing brushes. Much more expensive.

Preventive maintenance prevents two things: Unexpected failures, and massive repair bills. Too many owners keep deferring things in the hope that the airplane will last forever. After a few years of that they have an airplane that's unflyable and worthless.

Dan

 

[MAKG1]

I had to go re-read the thread, but I see no hint of G-1000 mentioned anywhere in it.

G-1000 has a separate battery for certain critical things, tested as part of the start checklist. It'll tell you when the alternator drops offline and it's running from that battery if you completely missed half of the panel going dark.

And it has a low volts annunciator for just this purpose, plus 30 minutes standy battery. I really doubt this was a G1000.