Alternate Take Off Minimums

PPC1052

Final Approach
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Okay, I understand that the bold triangle with a T on the approach plate means that there are alternate take off minimums OR there is an ODP. I looked at the TERPS entry for an airport where I often fly, KTYQ, to see what it looks like. The entry has a note that lists various trees and such off the departure end of the runways. But there is nothing that I recognize as being a notation about take off minimums, or an ODP. Is there something else I am missing?
 
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Okay, I understand that the bold triangle with a T on the approach plate means that there are alternate take off minimums OR there is an ODP. I looked at the TERPS entry for an airport where I often fly, KTYQ, to see what it looks like. The entry has a note that lists various trees and such off the departure end of the runways. But there is nothing that I recognize as being a notation about take off minimums, or an ODP. Is there something else I am missing?

The T is for nonstandard takeoff minimums and / or departure proceedures published. Your particular airport has close in obstacles less than one mile off the DER that necessitates publishing them. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a ODP for the field. They just want you to be aware of the obstacles (trees).
 
The T is for nonstandard takeoff minimums and / or departure proceedures published. Your particular airport has close in obstacles less than one mile off the DER that necessitates publishing them. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll have a ODP for the field. They just want you to be aware of the obstacles (trees).


I get what the T means. (Or at least my understanding is consistent with your description.) But this entry seems to have neither non-standard takeoff minums NOR an ODP.
 
No you're not missing anything. Lots of airports have entries like that. I guess they just want you to know about the obstacles, even though there is no specific procedure defined. The "T" is there to make you go look at the info. I guess the implied procedure is "don't hit anything on takeoff" :rolleyes:
 
I get what the T means. But this entry seems to have neither non-standard takeoff minums NOR an ODP.

I know. They do that for a lot of airports. Your obstacles penetrate the 40:1 OCS around the DER but since they're "low, close in obstacles" the TERPs people don't do an ODP for it. Usually it would require an excessively high climb rate. To get around that, they simply publish those obstacles on the T page so if you're departing IFR you know what's out there.
 
Seems like they could just note the obstructions on the approach chart
 
Seems like they could just note the obstructions on the approach chart
Approach charts are for approaches, not departures, and they're crowded enough already. The triangle-T on the approach charts is merely a courtesy, reminding you to do what you should always do anyway, which is to check the Takeoff Minimums section of the Terminal Procedures book before departing any airport under IFR.

In any event, the triangle-T tells you that one of three, not two, situations exists:

  • Close-in obstructions ("Notes" paragraph)
  • Non-standard minimums ("Takeoff Minimums" paragraph)
  • ODP ("Departure Procedures" paragraph)
 
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Approach charts are for approaches, not departures, and they're crowded enough already. The triangle-T on the approach charts is merely a courtesy, reminding you to do what you should always do anyway, which is to check the Takeoff Minimums section of the Terminal Procedures book before departing any airport under IFR.

In any event, the triangle-T tells you that one of three, not two, situations exists:

  • Close-in obstructions ("Notes" paragraph)
  • Non-standard minimums ("Takeoff Minimums" paragraph)
  • ODP ("Departure Procedures" paragraph)

Wouldn't you need to know about close in obstructions for approaches?
 
So...I'm not where I can access an approach plate book, but waaay back when I was teachin', I seem to remember the T means non-standard TO mins for part 135/121 operators. That was in the legend section explaining all symbols.
 
So...I'm not where I can access an approach plate book, but waaay back when I was teachin', I seem to remember the T means non-standard TO mins for part 135/121 operators. That was in the legend section explaining all symbols.
The triangle-T means they are published and that's all it means. While it is true that adherence to the published takeoff minimums and ODP's is not required by regulation for non-commercial operators, failure to adhere to them can be fatal for any operator. Choose wisely.
 
Not unless you were attempting a go-around from way below DA/MDA, and that's beyond the scope of the charted procedures.

What if there is a cow on the runway? What if someone pulls out in front of you? They do put various obstructions on the approach plate that you won't hit if you are within the charted procedures.

It just seems odd that if they are going to bother to reference something for takeoff on the approach plate with just the T that they just wouldn't go ahead and put it on the approach plate. It seems like it would be cleaner to just put the obstructions on the approach plate, and save the T for when it really matters in terms of there actually being alternate minimums or the existence of an ODP.
 
The triangle-T means they are published and that's all it means. While it is true that adherence to the published takeoff minimums and ODP's is not required by regulation for non-commercial operators, failure to adhere to them can be fatal for any operator. Choose wisely.

I seem to recall there is a regulation prohibiting careening into mountains or ground based obstructions. If nothing else FAR 91.13, I would think.
 
What if there is a cow on the runway? What if someone pulls out in front of you? They do put various obstructions on the approach plate that you won't hit if you are within the charted procedures.
It is still well beyond the scope of SIAP, and it would fill the plate with clutter to the point of making it unreadable. But if you really think it's that important, send a suggestion to the FAA and see what they say.

It just seems odd that if they are going to bother to reference something for takeoff on the approach plate with just the T that they just wouldn't go ahead and put it on the approach plate.
Yes, they are providing a reference. It's up to you to follow it to the other page in your TP book to find the reference, just like looking the References section at the back of a text book.
 
I seem to recall there is a regulation prohibiting careening into mountains or ground based obstructions. If nothing else FAR 91.13, I would think.
FAR 91.13 does effectively prohibit taking off IFR without considering and planning to avoid those obstructions. However, it does not prohibit a pilot on a non-commercial operation from using alternate means to ensure obstruction clearance.
 
FAR 91.13 does effectively prohibit taking off IFR without considering and planning to avoid those obstructions. However, it does not prohibit a pilot on a non-commercial operation from using alternate means to ensure obstruction clearance.

You have an amazing ability to repeat what others have said in a way that suggests that they are incorrect.
 
You have an amazing ability to repeat what others have said in a way that suggests that they are incorrect.

So Ron's doing the leg work here and giving you answers that you seem to not want to accept??? Civil airport takeoff mins don't apply to Part 91 ops. They apply to 121,125,129 and 135 ops. FYI, nonstandard mins / ODPs apply to Army aviators as well but that's beside the point.

Everything Ron is talking about is in 5-2-8 and 91.175.
 
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So Ron's doing the leg work here and giving you answers that you seem to not want to accept??? Civil airport takeoff mins don't apply to Part 91 ops. They apply to 121,125,129 and 135 ops. FYI, nonstandard mins / ODPs apply to Army aviators as well but that's beside the point.

Everything Ron is talking about is in 5-2-8 and 91.175.

No. You are not reading what I am saying. What I was refering to is the following statement (Which is what I quoted, by the way.)

FAR 91.13 does effectively prohibit taking off IFR without considering and planning to avoid those obstructions. However, it does not prohibit a pilot on a non-commercial operation from using alternate means to ensure obstruction clearance.

That is not really in disagreement with what I said (although it sure seems that way), which was:

I seem to recall there is a regulation prohibiting careening into mountains or ground based obstructions. If nothing else FAR 91.13, I would think.
 
So Ron's doing the leg work here and giving you answers that you seem to not want to accept??? Civil airport takeoff mins don't apply to Part 91 ops. They apply to 121,125,129 and 135 ops. FYI, nonstandard mins / ODPs apply to Army aviators as well but that's beside the point.

Everything Ron is talking about is in 5-2-8 and 91.175.

And let me add, I completely respect Ron's extensive knowledge and experience. Some folks seem to really bristle at his demeanor, but I understand where he comes from, which is a virtual encyclopeadic knowledge of the regs, tremendous experience, and not a lot of patience with folks that don't agree with him, almost universly due to their ignorance and not his. That's okay with me. What I was mildly disagreeing with him on wasn't what is required to be there, but whether it should be. Opinion stuff.
 
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And let me add, I completely respect Ron's extensive knowledge and experience. Some folks seem to really bristle at his demeanor, but I understand where he comes from, which is a virtual encyclopeadic knowledge of the regs, tremendous experience, and not a lot of patience with folks that don't agree with him, almost universly due to their ignorance and not his. That's okay with me.
Thank you.

What I was mildly disagreeing with him on wasn't what is required to be there, but whether it should be. Opinion stuff.
I must have misread what you posted. I thought you were suggesting that 91.13 would prohibit noncommercial pilots from launching in less than the published minimum takeoff weather or using anything but the published ODP. In response, I was pointing out that noncommercial operators do have the legal option of "rolling their own" in that regard as long as they take adequate precautions so they don't hit anything on the way up/out. Obviously, if they hit something while they were either departing with weather below the published mins or using their own self-developed ODP instead of the published ODP, the legal principle of res ipsa loquitor ("the thing speaks for itself") might be applied to the situation to show they were careless/reckless. However, when someone hits something in that situation, the case is nearly always heard before St. Peter rather than an ALJ, making the FAA regulatory issue moot.

Or, if you were saying that for a noncommercial pilot departing IFR to fail to at least check for (and if present, review) the published information in the Takeoff Minimums section sounds like "careless/reckless" in violation of 91.13, I'd agree with that completely.
 
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In any event, the triangle-T tells you that one of three, not two, situations exists:

  • Close-in obstructions ("Notes" paragraph)
  • Non-standard minimums ("Takeoff Minimums" paragraph)
  • ODP ("Departure Procedures" paragraph)

I should have thanked you for this before, so I will do so now. I was mistaken in my understanding of what the T alerts the pilot to, as I was missing the Notes part. I would like to mention this topic and how it relates to another recent thread I started, "Is it just me": http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68051

I am well into my studing of for the written, and in all of the test questions I have reviewed, I don't think I have seen ANY questions about the alternate take off minimums, an ODP, the need to look for them, and where to find them, or what the T means. I think this is stuff that should be on the written rather than some of the other stuff that is.
 
I am well into my studing of for the written, and in all of the test questions I have reviewed, I don't think I have seen ANY questions about the alternate take off minimums, an ODP, the need to look for them, and where to find them, or what the T means. I think this is stuff that should be on the written rather than some of the other stuff that is.
:rofl: No kiddin'. As I've said before, IMO there is almost no perceptible correlation between the current IR knowledge test and what you need to know to be a safe, effective instrument pilot. The FAA is supposed to be releasing a completely new IR written shortly; I hope to be pleased by its complete departure from the past (but won't be shocked if it doesn't).
 
I was mistaken in my understanding of what the T alerts the pilot to, as I was missing the Notes part. I would like to mention this topic and how it relates to another recent thread I started, "Is it just me": http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68051
The Notes are required to be "charted" according to Appendix D of Order 8260.46D . Whether that means they are only charted in the takeoff minimums section or can be notated on the face of a chart, I can't say with certainty. According to the AIM, par 5-2-8, "To eliminate publishing an excessive climb gradient, the obstacle AGL/MSL height and location relative to the DER is noted in the "Take-off Minimums and (OBSTACLE) Departure Procedures" section of a given Terminal Procedures Publication (TPP) booklet." But the current chart legend and Chart User's Guide only mention non-standard takeoff minimums and obstacle departure procedures. If you think it's important they mention Notes too, you might make a suggestion: 9-ATOR-HQ-PubGrp@faa.gov . EDIT: Ooops, that was for the AIM, this is for reporting chart errors: 9-AMC-Aerochart@faa.gov
I am well into my studing of for the written, and in all of the test questions I have reviewed, I don't think I have seen ANY questions about the alternate take off minimums, an ODP, the need to look for them, and where to find them, or what the T means. I think this is stuff that should be on the written rather than some of the other stuff that is.
:dunno: I have a database of almost 800 questions, so I did a search for "obstacle departure" and quit looking at them after the first three. They seem to be represented. The first one was specifically about the "T" and what it means.

dtuuri
 
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You seem to be able to access the Internet... :confused:

http://aeronav.faa.gov//d-tpp/1402/frntmatter.pdf

Thx 4 the link, Mark. However, when I say "don't have access", what I really mean is, I'm not enough taking the time a to...look up a link, click on it, wait on the slow download,wade thru the pop-ups, access the book download, find the legend page, etc, instead of having an actual book to simply open and turn to the familiar legend page.
 
:dunno: I have a database of almost 800 questions, so I did a search for "obstacle departure" and quit looking at them after the first three. They seem to be represented. The first one was specifically about the "T" and what it means.

dtuuri

Maybe. Doesn't change the fact that I haven't seen any on any practice test, while I have seen heavy concentrations on other topics. I didn't see anything on the actual test, either. But, sure enough, the question on whether to slew the remote compass card clockwise or counter clockwise to correct for a left deviation was. At least I can confidently say that I won't die because I turned the card the wrong way first.
 
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