ALPA to GA: Screw you

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Jim Logajan

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ALPA makes clear what they think of the riff-raff that they have to share their airspace with:

http://download.aopa.org/advocacy/ALPA_letter.pdf

What do they think of glider, sport, balloon, and ultralight pilots, I wonder, who've been flying in their airspace all these years? How many accidents were caused to commercial flights by medically unfit flyers of such aircraft?

Or recreational drone flyers? (Yeah, I know, there are GA pilots also throwing metaphorical rocks at those guys flying in their airspace.)
 
When I get access to a better computer, I am going to write Tim and let him know what I think of that statement as another ALPA member. Totally unacceptable.
 
Well, they already screwed over their profession by making it a two-tiered system that pays newcomers poverty-level wages. No surprise that they screwed over General Aviation as well.
 
These are the times when you see who really cares about General Aviation, and who could care less about it. Hopefully this will **** enough of us off to start doing something together!
 
MSPAviator said:
Well, they already screwed over their profession by making it a two-tiered system that pays newcomers poverty-level wages. No surprise that they screwed over General Aviation as well.
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:yeahthat:
 
Maybe they have forgotten where they ALL came from.......

What a bunch of feminine hygiene products......
 
Nothing personal against all the hard working airline pilots, but in this case, screw the ALPA.
 
Just wait for ATC to be privatized in whatever form that takes...
 
How is it possible that ALPA would take any other stance on this issue? This will undoubtedly be framed as a safety of flight issue to the general public, and they need to be on the right side of things.
 
MSPAviator said:
Well, they already screwed over their profession by making it a two-tiered system that pays newcomers poverty-level wages. No surprise that they screwed over General Aviation as well.
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That.

Airline pilots will sell their own mother for a dime. They allow regional pilots to be paid wages that are more easily classified as a insult then compinsation, is it any surprise they disrespect everyone else in aviation when they don't even respect their own.

Frankly as a working ATP statements like that are one of quite a few reasons I've turned down offers from some regionals.

ALPA can suck it.
 
what percentage of ALPA members are recreational piston operators or owners of the same? The anti-piston attitude is prevalent amongst professional pilots, military included. Professional pilots are apathetic at best, to the plight of recreational or flight training GA. I don't foresee ALPA membership pushing back in any substantive way against their leadership claiming to speak on their behalf on this issue, as they have in that letter.

One has to recognize that it is the alleged inability to afford recreational GA that thrusts the majority of airline aspirants into said career choice in the first place. So their apathy against piston GA is somewhat explainable on those grounds. Pilots have accepted the religion of "dues paying" as part of the opportunity cost of gaining access to "flying privileges", so medical requirements for the losers of the medical life lottery is not high on their list...until they find themselves staring at eyeball cancer in their late 40s that is, projections of lifetime earnings at age 65 rolling on the floor laughing back at them notwithstanding. I digress.

For those airline pilots who are friends and participants of GA, it is imperative your mouthpieces are made aware you do not share their and your co-workers' disdain for GA.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Not all airline pilots are ALPA. :rolleyes2:
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Fair enough. Do you believe their feelings on the subject vary substantially outside of ALPA membership? Or is the prior OP correct in suggesting all airline pilots suffer from the same driving motivators when it comes to the "pay your dues" culture and the apathy such a culture creates towards piston GA?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Fair enough. Do you believe their feelings on the subject vary substantially outside of ALPA membership? Or is the prior OP correct in suggesting all airline pilots suffer from the same driving motivators when it comes to the "pay your dues" culture and the apathy such a culture creates towards piston GA?
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Have you been reading what I have to say about it?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Fair enough. Do you believe their feelings on the subject vary substantially outside of ALPA membership? Or is the prior OP correct in suggesting all airline pilots suffer from the same driving motivators when it comes to the "pay your dues" culture and the apathy such a culture creates towards piston GA?
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ALPA is an association. Just because someone is a member (their respective pilot group voted them in as representation for the CBA) doesn't mean the individual pilots agree with everything they say in lockstep.

Does James331 represent the attitudes of all GA pilots? :eek:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
What he said.
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Indeed. I recognize your position as an airline pilot who is a friend of GA. I guess my question was meant to inquire as to whether the position fostered by that letter is actually reflective of the majority or is it a case of leadership disregarding the democratic sentiment, say the way most people who vote end up feeling the policies do not reflect their views, which numerically would be a mathematical impossibility. In other words, does ALPA speak genuinely for their membership? Because if they do, then my point about airline pilots stands in spite of your minority position as a GA friendly professional pilot.
 
Is that the viewpoint of the ALPA membership, or the position of the board? We all know that it's common for an association's board of directors and/or president to be quite removed from the membership and go out for themselves.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Indeed. I recognize your position as an airline pilot who is a friend of GA. I guess my question was meant to inquire as to whether the position fostered by that letter is actually reflective of the majority or is it a case of leadership disregarding the democratic sentiment, say the way most people who vote end up feeling the policies do not reflect their views, which numerically would be a mathematical impossibility. In other words, does ALPA speak genuinely for their membership? Because if they do, then my point about airline pilots stands in spite of your minority position as a GA friendly professional pilot.
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Since there was no immediate poll taken off all ALPA members after the above statement was made answering your hypothetical question would be at best, a WAG.

In my career I've known many fellow airline pilots that are engaged in GA as pilots, owners, mechanics, CFI's, etc.

Using your analogy is akin to saying Harry Reid or John Boehner speaks for everyone affiliated wit heir respective parties. :rolleyes:
 
Would be interesting to know how the rank and file of ALPA feel about this. While I realize it may be pretty difficult to keep track of GA pilots that may have fallen ill in the cockpit, the last two pilots I am aware of to have heart attacks in the air were both airline pilots. When talking to friends about the 3rd class medical I tell them that if an airline pilot, 40 or over, can slip or crawl through the cracks with a medical examination every 6 months and still have a heart attack in the air. What chance can a medical exam every two years hope to find!!!!

The pilots that have integrity will self certify with safety in mind with or without a 3rd class medical. Those that want to cheat the system will do so with or without the 3rd class medical.
 
tmyers said:
Would be interesting to know how the rank and file of ALPA feel about this. While I realize it may be pretty difficult to keep track of GA pilots that may have fallen ill in the cockpit, the last two pilots I am aware of to have heart attacks in the air were both airline pilots. When talking to friends about the 3rd class medical I tell them that if an airline pilot, 40 or over, can slip or crawl through the cracks with a medical examination every 6 months and still have a heart attack in the air. What chance can a medical exam every two years hope to find!!!!

The pilots that have integrity will self certify with safety in mind with or without a 3rd class medical. Those that want to cheat the system will do so with or without the 3rd class medical.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
tmyers said:
Would be interesting to know how the rank and file of ALPA feel about this. While I realize it may be pretty difficult to keep track of GA pilots that may have fallen ill in the cockpit, the last two pilots I am aware of to have heart attacks in the air were both airline pilots. When talking to friends about the 3rd class medical I tell them that if an airline pilot, 40 or over, can slip or crawl through the cracks with a medical examination every 6 months and still have a heart attack in the air. What chance can a medical exam every two years hope to find!!!!

The pilots that have integrity will self certify with safety in mind with or without a 3rd class medical. Those that want to cheat the system will do so with or without the 3rd class medical.
Click to expand...

Boy, that's about the most well reasoned and insightful post that I've ever read here. Who the hell hacked TMyers' account? :goofy:
 
I get lucky every now and then

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk
 
Perhaps I'm missing something here?? It sounds just like another letter with a different viewpoint. I don't see where ALPA has a financial interest in this, but maybe I'm wrong. I also don't see how it would hurt its members.
The way everyone is talking I expected much more.

My post may not reflect my personal view, I'm just trying to be objective.
 
tmyers said:
Would be interesting to know how the rank and file of ALPA feel about this. While I realize it may be pretty difficult to keep track of GA pilots that may have fallen ill in the cockpit, the last two pilots I am aware of to have heart attacks in the air were both airline pilots. When talking to friends about the 3rd class medical I tell them that if an airline pilot, 40 or over, can slip or crawl through the cracks with a medical examination every 6 months and still have a heart attack in the air. What chance can a medical exam every two years hope to find!!!!

The pilots that have integrity will self certify with safety in mind with or without a 3rd class medical. Those that want to cheat the system will do so with or without the 3rd class medical.
Click to expand...

If ALPA had polled their membership, would think the letter would have had a line something like: "We polled our membership and the results were __% against eliminating the 3rd class medical." That tells me 1) they didn't poll anybody outside Mr. Canoll's office, or 2) they did a poll and the results were not what they wanted.
 
Kritchlow said:
Again... What am I missing?? And how does your post affect you negatively?
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Not me, my son. He is pursuing an aviation career and the 1,500 hr rule to get on with a quality regional is going to cost big bucks. The rule was a knee-jerk reaction from the idiots in Washington. The system wasn't broken. But then it usually isn't when these do-gooders decide a new rule is needed.
 
old cfi said:
Not me, my son. He is pursuing an aviation career and the 1,500 hr rule to get on with a quality regional is going to cost big bucks. The rule was a knee-jerk reaction from the idiots in Washington. The system wasn't broken. But then it usually isn't when these do-gooders decide a new rule is needed.
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I do see your point, but in all honesty, IMO, until you have some experience (and 1500 ain't much) I'm not certain anyone should be in a commercial airliner. Even the regional jets today are pretty serious machines with nearly 100 seats.
 
You don't get it. Those "kids" coming out of the 141 schools in particular, since they are the ones geared to commercial aviation, are building time usually as CFI's as are the 61 pilots. I was a CFI for years and built up a lot of hours sitting in the right seat hardly ever controlling the aircraft but it all logs as PIC for me. A 1,500 CFI is current but has little experience in flying from A to B with a paying passenger on board in all kinds of weather. I learned more about flying from THAT type of flying than I ever did teaching. That's what your "new" 1,500 hr. pilots are going to be. Lots of time from the right seat not controlling the plane. Put that 250 hr. Commercial rated pilot in the right seat of a regional jet and let that salty old Captain sitting next to him/her really teach him/her how to fly. When he/she reaches 1,500 hrs. who do you think will be the better pilot? It comes down to the training procedures of the particular carrier. It worked for years but when Colgan had their crash, the public outcry forced new laws.

And just a little side note. As Chief Flight Instructor I had the task of checking out pilots that wanted to rent our aircraft. Three really stand out in my mind: a 747 Captain, a L1011 Captain and a First Officer. The two Captains couldn't find the ground with both hands. Started rounding out for landing about three stories in the air, missed radio transmissions, couldn't hold altitude. Took 2-3 hrs with both of them to get them comfortable in a 172. The First Officer never made it out of the traffic pattern. He flew like the gauges were broke. I didn't need to see any more from him - .6 and he had my approval.
 
old cfi said:
And just a little side note. As Chief Flight Instructor I had the task of checking out pilots that wanted to rent our aircraft. Three really stand out in my mind: a 747 Captain, a L1011 Captain and a First Officer. The two Captains couldn't find the ground with both hands. Started rounding out for landing about three stories in the air, missed radio transmissions, couldn't hold altitude. Took 2-3 hrs with both of them to get them comfortable in a 172. The First Officer never made it out of the traffic pattern. He flew like the gauges were broke. I didn't need to see any more from him - .6 and he had my approval.
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Let me interrupt your little chest thumping session. If you were placed in the cockpit of a 747 or L1011 I will guarantee your first few landings would suck, and you will have a ***** of a time holding altitude first time up. And it would take way more than 2-3 hours for you to get comfortable.

Point? About the same as your post. :rolleyes2:
 
I wouldn't expect anything less from a Union... if they some how could monetize it I'm sure they would back it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Perhaps I'm missing something here?? It sounds just like another letter with a different viewpoint. I don't see where ALPA has a financial interest in this, but maybe I'm wrong. I also don't see how it would hurt its members.
The way everyone is talking I expected much more.

My post may not reflect my personal view, I'm just trying to be objective.
Click to expand...

No credible data has been presented that indicates that there is any measurable increase in risk with the elimination of the Class 3 medical. And credible data is theoretically available by examining how often medical incapacitation played a role in the accident and incident history of glider, balloon, sport, or ultralight flights that also involved commercial flights. But no such data has been presented even though such flights have been occurring for decades.

I do not know what motivated that letter from ALPA
[*], but it was relying on a perception of risk, not the actual risk, to maintain a long established restriction on an individual freedom. Perceived risk has no objective utility but many people use it to justify all sorts of restrictions on individual freedoms.


[*] Based on the other content of the letter that seemed to be complaining about this appearing as an amendment to another bill rather than as part of PBOR2, perhaps there was something in PBOR2 that ALPA desired to have pass that was not in the amendment and would therefore not have a chance to occur if PBOR2 became redundant. That is the most generous interpretation I can think of.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Let me interrupt your little chest thumping session. If you were placed in the cockpit of a 747 or L1011 I will guarantee your first few landings would suck, and you will have a ***** of a time holding altitude first time up. And it would take way more than 2-3 hours for you to get comfortable.

Point? About the same as your post. :rolleyes2:
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You are assuming I have never flown a 747 or L1011 -- and my instrument skills are bad. You don't know me. I will say I lost the privilege when turning 65 so flying GA is my thing now.

But I do apologize for getting off-thread. Let's go back to discussing why ALPA doesn't like GA:yes:
 
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