ALPA to GA: Screw you

KSCessnaDriver said:
That may be so, but there are many orders of magnitude more than would love to learn to fly, but can't afford to. This entire argument of "people want to learn to fly can't because of a medical" is like jumping over a dollar to pick up a dime.
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I didn't fly for 15 years because I thought I wouldn't be able to get a medical, and that was after I had my certificate. Money was never an issue. I started again flying gliders and planned on sticking to light sport until I found out I could get a medical after all. There are many more like me.

ALPA, like every other union ever in the history of everything, is about exclusivity. Unions love barriers to entry. They're what union leaders live for. Just so long as they don't affect the union membership. ALPA's members have medicals, so reform wouldn't help them at all. But fewer pilots at any level is good for them. Remember, flying is hard, that's why there are so few pilots, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I he didn't want to share simply because someone wasn't part 121, that would be one thing. But, he has a reasonable argument for not wanting to share the airspace.
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"Reasonable". It's the new "fair".

Reasonable usually means whatever you want it to mean. In this particular case, the fragmenting of an already fragmented attack on ALL of GA. Just one more case of class warfare, which is stupid, and plays right into the forces against the greater good of expanding GA.

ATP looks down on 121 ops. 121 ops looks down on PPL/IFR/twin/etc. PPL looks down on SP/LSA. SP/LSA looks down on UL. And so it now goes, that someone with IFR wants to denigrate those who are allowed to fly 6 seat or less, in VMC.

Sorry - but that is bullspit and helps no one. So, vote no on 'reasonable'.
 
EdFred said:
I wasn't aware the amendment allowed flights in class A airspace withou a medical, or flying >12,500lbs
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I have no idea... As I said, it really doesn't matter to me therefore I have little knowledge of the whole thing.
My reason for getting in this thread was because I couldn't understand ALPA's reason for getting involved.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
If I felt that way, I'd be advocating a more restrictive medical system, as well as huge user fees. I spent enough time flying cross country on the low ARTCC frequencies, to know that there are a lot of weekend warrior types that don't belong in the air period. But hey, deregulate the whole GA flying business, what do I care.

The ironic thing is, the champion of all these FAA reforms is a moron who couldn't read NOTAMs, then proceed to operate careless and recklessly, but got off because he has more money than the rest of us.
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So the only people that should be allowed to fly are 121ers. Aren't getting paid to fly, get out of your airspace, eh? Some of us have jobs that aren't aviation, I guess we shouldn't be allowed in the air unless we're clocking 1200 hours a year. Got it. Great attitude.
 
EdFred said:
So the only people that should be allowed to fly are 121ers. Aren't getting paid to fly, get out of your airspace, eh? Some of us have jobs that aren't aviation, I guess we shouldn't be allowed in the air unless we're clocking 1200 hours a year. Got it. Great attitude.
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Ed, I know you are the resident make **** up artist. There is a vast difference between a weekend warrior and a GA pilot. Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom. Weekend warrior types, got their certificate and never do anything to try to get better.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ed, I know you are the resident make **** up artist. There is a vast difference between a weekend warrior and a GA pilot. Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom. Weekend warrior types, got their certificate and never do anything to try to get better.
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I'm not sure if you can hear yourself. But if the above quote is about as elitist as it gets. I mean really dude?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ed, I know you are the resident make **** up artist. There is a vast difference between a weekend warrior and a GA pilot. Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom. Weekend warrior types, got their certificate and never do anything to try to get better.
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Well, maybe you're right. There might be a vast difference. Is the solution to over-regulate any or all of GA pilots via the medical branch?

I don't know where I fall on the scale. I've been frustrated with others radio manners before. I've also been the source of frustration from others as well. I've also been frustrated by other's poor flying skills, and again - almost certainly been the source of frustration by others concerning flying skills(or lack thereof).

It's good - I guess, when we have perfect pilots, and communicators around. One's that never make mistakes, or say something wrong. Having others in the same airspace must be a real pain.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ed, I know you are the resident make **** up artist. There is a vast difference between a weekend warrior and a GA pilot. Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom. Weekend warrior types, got their certificate and never do anything to try to get better.
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Sounded like you were condemning all GA to me too. Or was it just the ones that don't fly to 121 standards?

After all, GA pilots dont HAVE to pilot an airplane, so everything they do is needlessly tying up the frequency.
 
Bob Noel said:
The one I use is an AME because he is a pilot and likes helping other pilots.
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As is mine. He's a pilot, lives on his own grass strip, and loves aviation. But he will also tell you that being an AME keeps gas in his plane, and is about as easy work as any medical doctor can find. When Mary and I were done, he had made $250 in cash income in less than one hour.

Nice work, if you can find it.

As I have stated, there is nothing wrong with that at all -- I would do the EXACT same thing, in their shoes -- but denying that the profit motive is behind AME's opposition to eliminating the 3rd class medical is just silly.

Anyone got word on where the bill now stands in Congress? I'm still on my leisurely way home from OSH, and haven't kept up.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom.
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So you must dread flying your airliner on a weekend. There's a chance you might hear an ordinary man or woman speaking on the radio. My goodness!
 
So it wasn't just me that thought that. Guess I wasn't making anything up after all.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Ed, I know you are the resident make **** up artist. There is a vast difference between a weekend warrior and a GA pilot. Weekend warriors are the type that needlessly tie up center, trying to get flight following and having to have their hand held by ATC to get the info they need. Or the types that needlessly chat on Unicom. Weekend warrior types, got their certificate and never do anything to try to get better.
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I'm sure that didn't come across the way you intended, because it makes you sound like a real dick. The kind of dick who would vote for the dick who this thread is about to represent him. I only have one response to your post as I understood it, two words, seven letters. But like I said, it probably didn't come across the way you intended.
 
docmirror said:
Well, maybe you're right. There might be a vast difference. Is the solution to over-regulate any or all of GA pilots via the medical branch?

I don't know where I fall on the scale. I've been frustrated with others radio manners before. I've also been the source of frustration from others as well. I've also been frustrated by other's poor flying skills, and again - almost certainly been the source of frustration by others concerning flying skills(or lack thereof).

It's good - I guess, when we have perfect pilots, and communicators around. One's that never make mistakes, or say something wrong. Having others in the same airspace must be a real pain.
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Over regulate? How can not changing the system be over regulating? A vast majority of GA pilots are just fine, but IMO, the ones that generally are the problem children are the ones most likely to need no medical to keep flying (ie, the old men who can't be bothered to do things the correct way, because that's not how they did it back in the 60's).


You want to know something else? I don't think reasonable user fees (in place of the fuel tax) is a terrible idea. Better drag me out to the barn to shoot me now.
 
NoHeat said:
So you must dread flying your airliner on a weekend. There's a chance you might hear an ordinary man or woman speaking on the radio. My goodness!
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No, I dread going into a Class E airport where some GA pilot thinks they run the place and tries to tell us how to operate our 121 aircraft.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
No, I dread going into a Class E airport where some GA pilot thinks they run the place and tries to tell us how to operate our 121 aircraft.
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Mary and I have been wracking our brains, trying to think of an example of this. Closest we come is maybe Ft. Dodge, IA (the airline flies Caravans through there several times a day) and Quincy, IL (they used to run commuters through there).

Never had a problem at either one. Can you be more specific about the problems you've run into with us GA pilots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
I am a little late to this fracas but I just wanted to share info about my last two AMEs.
The guy I went to in Memphis actually does third class exams for free. He is a pilot and he wants to help out fellow pilots. Pretty cool, no?
The guy who I went to earlier this year in Chicago land was a real pleasure to work with and we got into a conversation regarding the third class. He stated that he would not care if it is eliminated as he sees it as a silly requirement. He also stated that the third class makes up only around 20% of his FAA exams if that much.

Think about it. An ATP goes either every 6 months if over 40 and every year if under 40. All other commercial pilots go every year. Those of us who are older only go every two years and those who are young, once every 5 years. This means that an ATP who is the same age as me, will go 4 times for every time that I go and will go 10 times for each time a priva te pilot under 40 goes. A commercial pilot, 2 times for each time I go. And since a first class needs an EKG, the AME charges extra for these. If you couple all of this info with the doctors normal practice, it is apparent that Class 3 medicals are an insignificant percentage of an AMEs practice.

So in my opinion, those who think AMEs just want to stick it to pilots need to have their head examined. Are there some that do? Probably but my guess is that they are a small minority.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Mary and I have been wracking our brains, trying to think of an example of this. Closest we come is maybe Ft. Dodge, IA (the airline flies Caravans through there several times a day) and Quincy, IL (they used to run commuters through there).

Never had a problem at either one. Can you be more specific about the problems you've run into with us GA pilots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Jay, you're thinking 121 means passenger carriers. We go all over the place. People who don't cancel IFR until they are on the ground, even though its clearly MVFR, don't help us out GA in the least bit.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Mary and I have been wracking our brains, trying to think of an example of this. Closest we come is maybe Ft. Dodge, IA (the airline flies Caravans through there several times a day) and Quincy, IL (they used to run commuters through there).

Never had a problem at either one. Can you be more specific about the problems you've run into with us GA pilots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Well some GA pilots have much thicker aviation CVs then many regional pilots.

That said, god knows I'm not a 121 dude, but as a working pilot the biggest issues I've had with low experience GA types have been poor position reporting, "shy hawk 123 is 10 north east inbound at 3 k" next call is "skyhawk 5 miles out from the eass.....oh hey, uh, skyhawk is 5 miles west inbound"

Overall I'd rather deal with that than have a weak GA system here in the US.

Frankly any 121 kiddie who cries about GA, needs to get their head on straight, otherwise they are welcome to get a job in China or somewhere, no GA to worry about.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Jay, you're thinking 121 means passenger carriers. We go all over the place. People who don't cancel IFR until they are on the ground, even though its clearly MVFR, don't help us out GA in the least bit.
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What about the 121ers that just expect everyone to get out of their way when there's already a pattern established with multiple planes in it? Well I guess it is their airspace, and us lowly serfs are lucky to get some scraps from the refuse piles.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Think about it. An ATP goes either every 6 months if over 40 and every year if under 40. All other commercial pilots go every year. Those of us who are older only go every two years and those who are young, once every 5 years. This means that an ATP who is the same age as me, will go 4 times for every time that I go and will go 10 times for each time a priva te pilot under 40 goes. A commercial pilot, 2 times for each time I go. And since a first class needs an EKG, the AME charges extra for these. If you couple all of this info with the doctors normal practice, it is apparent that Class 3 medicals are an insignificant percentage of an AMEs practice.
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And if this argument holds water, an insignificant fraction of OKC's workload as well, which would negate arguments that ALPA is doing FAA's bidding. What I'm not sure of is the relative numbers of pilots requiring 1st and 2nd class vs us 3rd class folks. But I suspect we're not 4 times as numerous.

I suspect we're not completely insignificant, but not a huge share either.
 
Jay Honeck said:
As is mine. He's a pilot, lives on his own grass strip, and loves aviation. But he will also tell you that being an AME keeps gas in his plane, and is about as easy work as any medical doctor can find. When Mary and I were done, he had made $250 in cash income in less than one hour.
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My third class medical was $75.

Think about how much the doctor's staff costs per hour, plus the office overhead. This is in the northeast (hint: not a low cost of living)

Not a lot of profit there.
 
Interesting news today related to this - Republic Airlines has announced they are cutting back flights due to a shortage of pilots - apparently the shortage is real. I believe this can be traced directly to recommendations made by and supported by ALPA.

If ALPA and 121 in general aren't careful, their elitism will mean they don't even have enough pilots to support their own businesses.
 
bflynn said:
Interesting news today related to this - Republic Airlines has announced they are cutting back flights due to a shortage of pilots - apparently the shortage is real. I believe this can be traced directly to recommendations made by and supported by ALPA.



If ALPA and 121 in general aren't careful, their elitism will mean they don't even have enough pilots to support their own businesses.
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I bet if they raised the salaries of their pilots they would fix that problem. Supply and demand works both ways.
Edit: I see they tried but the union went to court to stop it?!?
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
...The ironic thing is, the champion of all these FAA reforms is a moron who couldn't read NOTAMs, ...
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Part 121 never, ever makes that mistake:

Allegiant

This argument reminds me of the commercial truck drivers complaining about all of the cars on the road.

However, that being said, fogging a mirror and reading an eye chart every 24 months isn't such a big deal. Its the crap way that the 3rd class medical is managed. Paying $150 only to have my 3rd class medical deferred because I had arthroscopy and had fully healed (easily verified by a simple physical test) is absurd.

The FAA should be more stringent on AME standards and more user-friendly for private pilots!
 
bflynn said:
Interesting news today related to this - Republic Airlines has announced they are cutting back flights due to a shortage of pilots - apparently the shortage is real. I believe this can be traced directly to recommendations made by and supported by ALPA.

If ALPA and 121 in general aren't careful, their elitism will mean they don't even have enough pilots to support their own businesses.
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No shortage of pilots, just a shortage of desire to give proper compensation on the part of the airlines.

Plus the whole atmosphere in 121, if it were the 50s or 60s I'd debate it, I'd love to have been a captian on one of those clippers.

image.jpg


But those times are past and I can't recall a time I saw a 121 pilot at a airport who seemed happy.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Mary and I have been wracking our brains, trying to think of an example of this. Closest we come is maybe Ft. Dodge, IA (the airline flies Caravans through there several times a day) and Quincy, IL (they used to run commuters through there).

Never had a problem at either one. Can you be more specific about the problems you've run into with us GA pilots?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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No, he can't, because that would require him to talk to one of those weekend warrior-types (you know, those of us who work for a living during the week, and fly on weekends). Plus, you probably fly one of those lowly garage-built planes, with fixed gear no less. Pffffft.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Over regulate? How can not changing the system be over regulating? A vast majority of GA pilots are just fine, but IMO, the ones that generally are the problem children are the ones most likely to need no medical to keep flying (ie, the old men who can't be bothered to do things the correct way, because that's not how they did it back in the 60's).


You want to know something else? I don't think reasonable user fees (in place of the fuel tax) is a terrible idea. Better drag me out to the barn to shoot me now.
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Because it is currently over-regulated. I and many others want to change the current restrictive mode into something more liberal, or libertarian, or choose your adjective. Written by someone who is getting near the 'old men' qualifier. You too will age. Your tune will change, and you'll sometimes look back and think - 'I can't ****ing believe I wrote that on a blog'.

User fees IN PLACE OF fuel tax? :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Yah - sure,
Troll alert....
 
EdFred said:
What about the 121ers that just expect everyone to get out of their way when there's already a pattern established with multiple planes in it? Well I guess it is their airspace, and us lowly serfs are lucky to get some scraps from the refuse piles.
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I actually let them go most of the time. Twice I was technically in front of a PC-12 coming into Salida, and I just made a 360 on downwind to let them get it down first. Sometimes I go to Houston Exec and they have a kero burner doing straight in from somewhere up north, and I just blather around to the west for a bit. No biggie, unless I need a potty I'm gonna defer. One slow 360 isn't gonna matter a bit to me, and maybe(except KCCessnaDriver) I'll gain a bit of goodwill.

I'd rather do this than make a rushed appr, being that I'm an inferior, low-rent, scumbag, pt91 looooooooooser.
 
Whatever you guys say, I'm going to agree to disagree. We aren't going to convince each other to swap sides. IMO, everyone should have to pass a medical to fly.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Whatever you guys say, I'm going to agree to disagree. We aren't going to convince each other to swap sides. IMO, everyone should have to pass a medical to fly.
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But you advance no justification other than keeping people who bother you out of the air.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Whatever you guys say, I'm going to agree to disagree. We aren't going to convince each other to swap sides. IMO, everyone should have to pass a medical to fly.
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The Sport Pilots and UL folks are going to be happy to hear that op-ed -- Adolph. :cheerswine:
 
Jim Logajan said:
How many accidents were caused to commercial flights by medically unfit flyers of such aircraft?
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Back to the OP, I think this is the key question. Nobody in this thread has produced a single example of an airliner that was harmed by a small plane flown by a medically unfit pilot.
 
Jay Honeck said:
As is mine. He's a pilot, lives on his own grass strip, and loves aviation. But he will also tell you that being an AME keeps gas in his plane, and is about as easy work as any medical doctor can find. When Mary and I were done, he had made $250 in cash income in less than one hour.

Nice work, if you can find it.
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So is your AME kinda "semi-retired" and does aviation medicals as a little side job? Does he have an office that he pays rent on or leases, or does he do the exams out in his hangar? Any staff? They need to be paid.

I would venture that most AME's do aviation medicals as a very small PART of their practice...and I'll bet good money that any of them would tell you it is not exactly a "profit center" for them.

My present AME (who is also one of my commercial students) is a top-notch GP with a busy practice. The 1 hour he and his staff spend with me for $120 is a drop in the bucket compared to what can be billed to insurance or medicare in the same timeframe.

Your doctor, Jay, I would think is the exception rather than the norm.

JMHO.
 
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