All three Las Vegas airports will charge a $3,000 landing fee during F1 races

Sudburian said:
AOPA: “FAA rules clearly state that public-use airports that receive federal funding are not permitted to charge unfair and unreasonable fees.”

www.aopa.org

AOPA fights price gouging at Las Vegas valley airports

Special event fees at Las Vegas valley airports are reaching astronomical heights ahead of the Formula 1 Heineken Silver Las Vegas Grand Prix on November 18. AOPA is looking into the how and why of this disturbing trend, working with the Clark County aviation management, the FAA, pilots, and...
www.aopa.org
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The headline is misleading.

AOPA is not fighting price gouging at Las Vegas airports; they are (weakly) fighting future price gouging at other airports. As ususal, AOPA was late to the fight and admits they are unable to do anything about the current situation. Where was AOPA a couple of months ago? A day late and a dollar short....
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Are you sure about that?

F1 seeks $40M from county for Las Vegas Grand Prix infrastructure work​

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"The infrastructure upgrades tied to preparing the Las Vegas Grand Prix circuit are expected to cost $80 million, with race officials asking Clark County to contribute $40 million in public money"​

www.reviewjournal.com

F1 seeks $40M from county for Las Vegas Grand Prix infrastructure work

Formula One is looking for a $40 million Clark County contribution toward the $80 million Las Vegas Grand Prix circuit infrastructure project.
www.reviewjournal.com www.reviewjournal.com

From earlier in this thread:

The three airports HND, LAS and VGT are all owned and operated by Clark County, Nevada.
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For only $10,000,000 taxpayer dollars a day you can help a starving conglomerate of billion dollar companies afford to build a new racetrack and see exactly $0 return on your investment.
 
A Youtuber and AOPA succeeded in getting the FAA’s attention. The Vegas airports just announced a reduction in their fee from $3000 to $750 for certain type aircraft. FAA is continuing to investigate the legality of the fees.

 
Sudburian said:
A Youtuber and AOPA succeeded in getting the FAA’s attention. The Vegas airports just announced a reduction in their fee from $3000 to $750 for certain type aircraft. FAA is continuing to investigate the legality of the fees.

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Interesting stats at the end of the video. Raise the fees for special events and get less traffic. U2 concert and Sphere opening did not garner the traffic CCDoA expected.
 
It kind of grinds me how public money is used to build and maintain a facility then charge taxpayers for attendance/use.
Never got a free ticket to a Seahawks game after paying may share for the stadiums [still paying for Kingdome].
If aircraft parking space is the real reason, limit by reservation.
 
fast99 said:
It kind of grinds me how public money is used to build and maintain a facility then charge taxpayers for attendance/use.
Never got a free ticket to a Seahawks game after paying may share for the stadiums [still paying for Kingdome].
If aircraft parking space is the real reason, limit by reservation.
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Limit by RSV wont work either. They'll just limit it to Jets that will consume x number of thousand pounds of fuel. . . Why wouldnt you ?
Taxpayer dollars are offset by what they project the benefit to the economy is. it isnt - oh I paid my x number of dollars and therefore I get to use it.
 
Here’s the thing: If an airport takes federal dollars (Clark County took $30 million!), it’s obligated to be available to the public. What Clark County seems to think is “no but we’re special because we’re Vegas, so we have different rules.” I have a feeling the FAA is about to tell them “no, you’re not special.”
 
Sudburian said:
Here’s the thing: If an airport takes federal dollars (Clark County took $30 million!), it’s obligated to be available to the public. What Clark County seems to think is “no but we’re special because we’re Vegas, so we have different rules.” I have a feeling the FAA is about to tell them “no, you’re not special.”
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I think they have defined this as you can probably land there - you just cant use the fbo's there. The FBO's and clark county Aviation obviously do this in cohoots with each other - but technically they arent denying you the privilege of actually using the airport. Just not the private facilities that are leased there.

But federal dollars doesnt mean anything. The pentagon is administered with Federal dollars - you arent allowed admission there. Langley AFB is paid for by federal dollars - again no access. Tracon - funded by federal dollars - they tell you when they might give you a tour - but generally no access.
 
Announced today the Oakland A's are moving to Vegas. Wonder who's paying for that stadium...
 
Racerx said:
Announced today the Oakland A's are moving to Vegas. Wonder who's paying for that stadium...
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Almost certainly from the county / local jurisdiction. Which is going to be county bonds similar to the football stadium. But I would in a heartbeat do it to attract teams - especially for Vegas. It just draws more people in. If there is an equation in terms of bringing in more dollars - vegas makes a lot more sense than Oakland (or other places). When they say it will "bring in" x number of dollars for the local economy - it is more true for vegas than other cities. For other cities - they are bringing in dollars and expenditure and boosting the local economy from other places but also locally. With vegas - a LOT of $$$ are brought in from all over the country and not necessarily locally. You're swiping money from Califonia, New York, Kansas, Illinois - whatever.
 
Anthem said:
Almost certainly from the county / local jurisdiction. Which is going to be county bonds similar to the football stadium. But I would in a heartbeat do it to attract teams - especially for Vegas. It just draws more people in. If there is an equation in terms of bringing in more dollars - vegas makes a lot more sense than Oakland (or other places). When they say it will "bring in" x number of dollars for the local economy - it is more true for vegas than other cities. For other cities - they are bringing in dollars and expenditure and boosting the local economy from other places but also locally. With vegas - a LOT of $$$ are brought in from all over the country and not necessarily locally. You're swiping money from Califonia, New York, Kansas, Illinois - whatever.
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As someone that lives in Vegas and quite familiar with the stadium model (I have been involved in these projects here before) I can tell you that the real tangible economic benefit rarely, if ever justifies the use of tax dollars. T-Mobile Arena was a huge success and was funded without taxpayer $. MLB is a dying sport as it ages out. I can't imagine 81 home games in Vegas are going to be that much of a draw, especially for a team like the A's. As for F1 - the real benefit for the Hotels/Casinos is the upcharge - the selling of "premium" packages. This time of year is typically one of the busiest periods here in LV anyhow November usually has a very high occupancy rate to begin with.
 
Anthem said:
I think they have defined this as you can probably land there - you just cant use the fbo's there. The FBO's and clark county Aviation obviously do this in cohoots with each other - but technically they arent denying you the privilege of actually using the airport. Just not the private facilities that are leased there.
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Except that's not how they defined it.

It very clearly states "The $3,000 fee will apply to all transient aircraft using any space on the airfield from November 14-18, 2023, including private / commercial hangars, shade hangars, or open ramp parking spaces.

You don't have to even be attending the event, or moving the aircraft during the event.

If Joe Blow has his pilot brother in for a family event that bridges the 14th-18th, even if he is parked in a closed, private, hangar and never operates the plane, he gets nailed per the published notice.

Garbage.

img_9127-jpeg.121932
 
If they need to deny landing privileges completely they actually can. But no, the county cannot charge a transient Skyhawk $3000 just for landing ar HND to drop off a cousin.

Also, the complaining pilot dug up stats and discovered that during past high profile events in Vegas, there was absolutely no increase in GA traffic at Vegas area airports. Clark County is basically just making stuff up as they go along. While accepting $30 million of OUR tax dollars. In addition, the county aviation department has experienced zero budgeting problems associated with high profile events and GA traffic. Frankly, it seems like GA pilots don’t actually give a damn about Vegas’s big events. They’re just flying in and out the same way they do other metro areas.
 
Anthem said:
I think they have defined this as you can probably land there - you just cant use the fbo's there. The FBO's and clark county Aviation obviously do this in cohoots with each other - but technically they arent denying you the privilege of actually using the airport. Just not the private facilities that are leased there.

But federal dollars doesnt mean anything. The pentagon is administered with Federal dollars - you arent allowed admission there. Langley AFB is paid for by federal dollars - again no access. Tracon - funded by federal dollars - they tell you when they might give you a tour - but generally no access.
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As I noted above, Special events bring big costs and the FBO’s are entitled to recover that and make a profit. Make hay while the sun is shining, yada yada…

For the ramp and the hangar area they control/lease, or the runway/taxiways that are shut down for parking that they route, I can easily see doing this. I can also see forbidding other non-FBO lease holders from making money off of parking.

Netjets is not going to drop a customer off at the self-serve pumps, point to the fence, and wish them luck. They don’t care how much it costs to use the FBO, they pass it on to the customer.

But charging based aircraft and non-event transients who don’t use the FBO facility is way out of line.
 
I think the county is well aware the amount of GA traffic will be unchanged. Like most things GA, they don't care about us. They're bilking the high roller F1 crowd to recoup the cost of construction to have the event be on the schedule.

It's garbage all the way around. Reminds me of the Olympics or World cup. Why cities still bend over backwards for these events is beyond me. Ever check out those pictures from past Olympic villages?
 
Nick Geber said:
real tangible economic benefit rarely, if ever justifies the use of tax dollars.
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I say this alot....seems a little more thought goes into spending money when some one else isn't paying for it.
 
Not sure AOPA should give itself a participation trophy for the reduced fees. The prices for tickets, packages, etc have all been drastically falling in the past couple of days. This just isn’t getting the traffic they predicted.

So the drop in airport fees also probably had more to do with less demand vs anything else.
 
$500 million.....I've lost count of the times I've seen that number this week...seems to be a bench mark these days..
 
"The start of a second practice scheduled for midnight Thursday was delayed"

Seriously? Practice at midnight??
 
Racerx said:
"The start of a second practice scheduled for midnight Thursday was delayed"

Seriously? Practice at midnight??
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The race is a night race; 10P start in Vegas, just in time for Europe to watch it live over breakfast, Middle East at brunch, and Asia at supper.
 
TCABM said:
The race is a night race; 10P start in Vegas, just in time for Europe to watch it live over breakfast, Middle East at brunch, and Asia at supper
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I think it’d be easier and better for all concerned if they kept their overdramatized and somewhat effete event at home.
 
Anthem said:
it isnt - oh I paid my x number of dollars and therefore I get to use it.
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Doesn't all other publicly funded transportation infrastructure work just that way? Why are publicly funded airports different?
 
Not only was the practice session delayed because of the loose manhole whatnot, but the spectators were made to leave at the regularly scheduled time and thus missed part of the session. Why? The security staff was only scheduled per the original schedule. They didn’t plan for any delays.
 
Racerx said:
I think the county is well aware the amount of GA traffic will be unchanged. Like most things GA, they don't care about us. They're bilking the high roller F1 crowd to recoup the cost of construction to have the event be on the schedule.

It's garbage all the way around. Reminds me of the Olympics or World cup. Why cities still bend over backwards for these events is beyond me. Ever check out those pictures from past Olympic villages?
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I’m proud to say that Denver/Colorado “won” the rights to the winter olympics many years ago - the late 60s for games in the 70s. When locals forced the state to a public vote, it was voted OUT by the populace. There was another attempt to organize another group to bid on the olympics three or four years ago
- dead silence and I’m pretty sure they realized it wasn’t going to happen.

 
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squincher said:
Doesn't all other publicly funded transportation infrastructure work just that way? Why are publicly funded airports different?
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Actually not all public infrastructure works that way. You can use the improved harbor, the intracoastal waterway, or the River system, but the docks aren’t free in most cases. Add metered parking on public streets, which in Key West is $7 an hour.
 
Clark County aviation officials have said they expect around 400 general aviation aircraft to park at three Southern Nevada airports, including those in Henderson and North Las Vegas and Harry Reid International Airport. The department routinely incentivizes general aviation with lower fuel prices to park at Henderson and North Las Vegas to free up airspace for large planes at Reid.​
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www.reviewjournal.com

Aviation group says Clark County airports have lowered landing fees for F1

The “egregious” $3,000 landing fees have been trimmed, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association said.
www.reviewjournal.com www.reviewjournal.com
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400 aircraft x $3000 = $1.2MM planned windfall for the county.

Plus stop-and-goes, and gotcha fines for any transient planes the airport manager caught in private hangars.

That surely would cover a a bit of ramper overtime and rent-a-cop security for the event, one would think.
 
fast99 said:
It kind of grinds me how public money is used to build and maintain a facility then charge taxpayers for attendance/use.
Never got a free ticket to a Seahawks game after paying may share for the stadiums [still paying for Kingdome].
If aircraft parking space is the real reason, limit by reservation.
Click to expand...
How are you still paying for the Kingdome?
 
Clip4 said:
Actually not all public infrastructure works that way. You can use the improved harbor, the intracoastal waterway, or the River system, but the docks aren’t free in most cases. Add metered parking on public streets, which in Key West is $7 an hour.
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Do those fees get bumped up by thousands of dollars to pay expenses for private entities?
 
squincher said:
Do those fees get bumped up by thousands of dollars to pay expenses for private entities?
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That’s the right question, and let’s also remember the fraud behind Clark County’s argument: their nonprofit, government operation does not experience any financial “loss” in any sense due to high profile events. The events bring in massive tax revenues to Clark County. They have to configure a few logistics to deal with large events obviously, but, that’s the whole point of having a government. To configure stuff.

Governments do have the legal power to charge fees. Those fees, however, are subject to strict laws and regulations. As they should be. Because they were only put into a position of charging fees by the very same taxpayers who are paying those fees.
 
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