"When I quote a post, it creates context for my response. If you choose to ignore the context and misinterpret my post, that’s not my problem."
I take it you've had this problem in the past as well?
Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.
- Thread starter Kenny Phillips
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I take it you've had this problem in the past as well?
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I'm glad to see that you agree that AB broke his own rules and should be found guilty.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you think they’re related, it’s just another example of your lack of English comprehension.
Obviously *I* think he should be found innocent, based on what I understand today. But it will be interesting to see what a jury decides and what evidence/testimony is submitted beyond what has already been written about.I'm glad to see that you agree that AB broke his own rules and should be found guilty.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
What do you think his sentence should be? 18 months? 10 years?
Should be? I think he should be found innocent.
The original plea deal he was offered was a misdemeanor, six months of unsupervised probation, a $500 fine, 24 hours of community service and a firearms safety class.
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SoonerAviator
I guess I should rephrase: do we factually know what the rule on-set for Rust was, or are we just assuming they were following traditional "actor's union" convention for weapons-handling on set? Furthermore, if the armorer was truly required to be on set, who authorized the continuation of filming with weapons without the armorer being physically present? If that ends up being something authorized by AB or other producer, then you have a whole new avenue to pursue liability. If AB knew about the rule, but continued to work with the weapons anyway, he is complicit.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
Man... twenty years? That's a long time. I'd be okay with a five year term...
So you think Alec's punishment should be more than the armorer that was responsible for weapon safety on the set?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
No no no!! The armorer only got eighteen months.
Sorry, I don't get this then, "Man... twenty years? That's a long time. I'd be okay with a five year term..."
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
Doesn't it suck when someone doesn't understand what you said but pretends they do?
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Bob Noel
especially when what you wrote couldn't possibly ever be misunderstood....
Judge in Hannah's sentencing: "You were the armorer. The one that stood between a safe weapon and a weapon that could kill someone. You alone turned a safe weapon into a lethal weapon. But for you Ms. Hutchins would be alive."
I wonder if Alec's team can present that statement at his trial?
I wonder if Alec's team can present that statement at his trial?
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I don't think they can. Not a lawyer, so lawyers, please correct me, but I don't think AB's team can bring this result into his trial.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
The armorer was responsible for obtaining the proper weapons and ammo, preparing them for use, and providing to the assistant director (AD). The assistant director was the safety coordinator on set for the scene. He then was responsible for controlling the prop cart and providing guns to the actors as necessary. He handed Baldwin the gun and told him it was safe. The AD pled guilty and was sentenced to 6 months of probation.
One distinction being lost in the discussion: dummy vs blank rounds. For this particular scene, Baldwin's gun was supposed to be loaded with dummy rounds, which look like live rounds but have no powder charge and do not fire. Dummy rounds are necessary because you can see the tip of bullets when a revolver is pointed towards the camera. One of the dummy rounds was in fact a live round.
The AD and armorer were supposed to jointly perform a safety check of each firearm. The armorer spun the cylinder to show the AD that the rounds were all dummies. According to the AD in his guilty plea, that check was performed, but without fully spinning the cylinder.
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For filming a take, yes. Why are they necessary when just blocking out a scene?
Ed Haywood
En-Route
No evidence was found of that by the investigators for the armorer's trial. They were unable to determine how the bullets got on set.
The Yellowstone 1883 cast apparently went off set for a day of shooting. That is relevant because the same arms and ammo supplier supported both films, and the same set of colt .45 handguns were used. Also, the stepfather of the Rust armorer was the Yellowstone armorer. That provides two plausible paths for live rounds to get mixed into the Rust supply. But the investigators were unable to conclusively determine the chain of custody for the live bullets.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Dunno. Ask the AD. I assume it was because the live scene would be filmed immediately after it was blocked out. It's logical to get all your people and props on set, walk through everything to get the mechanics down, then turn on the camera and do a live take.
2-Bit Speed
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Even if they had fully spun the cylinder, that check would have been insufficient. Dummies are supposed to look exactly like live ammo. The distinguishing factor is that dummies are supposed to rattle.
(Near as I can tell)
For what conceivable reason would a dummy round have a primer? If you needed to do a shot showing a round from the rear (kind of unlikely) but then I'd say empty brass with a primer in it. I've reloaded 10s of thousands of rifle and pistol cartridges in my life and these just seem like reasonable safeguards.
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I agree that that would be wise. Why that isn't done, I'll never understand, but my understanding, wrong it may be, is that there is one type of dummy round and it is supposed to look exactly like a live round.
To be clear, I wasn't doubting you just expressing amazement at the lack of safety protocol standardization.
ElPaso Pilot
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ElPaso Pilot
Interesting longer transcript of the Judge's comments from the video above, for those who didn't watch it.
Red paragraph is where the Judge lets loose.
"First of all, thank you for your presentations. Thank the friends and family of Halyna for presenting their memories and their losses of Halyna.
There are really three choices for sentencing before me. What the defence wants is a conditional discharge. This means straight probation unless Miss Gutierrez-Reed comes back on a probation violation. She won't have a felony conviction on her record, so she can continue to possess firearms. Again, unless she comes back on a probation violation, and receives the imposition of the probated sentence. The second one has not been offered by counsel but I've certainly thought of it, and it's to continue her in the Santa Fe County Detention Centre. That would be for 12 months, it's all she's allowed to stay at the detention centre, and then put her on probation for the rest of the time - she's facing 18 months, she's got pre-sentence confinement for about a month or so. In this scenario, she won't experience prison, she will be a convicted felon, she cannot carry a firearm under federal law and for a specific time under New Mexico law. And then there's prison, and the state has proposed at 85% of the time sentenced to incarceration based on the serious violent offence statute.
For all the fanfare and [unintelligible] and fingerpointing that has been going on for over two years, we were able to seat a jury of her peers who confirmed that they could listen to the evidence perceived in court and determine the facts and apply the law. They found Miss Gutierrez guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
What were some of the poignant facts that came out during the trial? In her police interviews, she proudly owned her position as armourer.
On October 1st 2021, chaos [unintelligble] after the film crew walked off. Miss Hutchins and others were trying to rig, if you will, how they were going to keep filming. And what was the defendant doing while waiting? She was loading Alec Baldwin's gun. Did she have enough time to load the weapon safely? Plenty. Did she load the weapon? Yes - with dummies and a live round. Did she check what she was loading? No. Why? Well in her own words, most recently in her jail house calls, she "didn't need to be shaking the dummies all the time". Did she check after that? No. And while you've heard her concerns about how she'll never work again as an armourer leading up to the trial, have her concerns changed? No, here's what she says: this whole thing has been a character attack on her. Just recently, in her allocution, "I'm not a monster". They talk about how much of - on the phone, she and another are talking about how much of Hannah's life they could take up, and that this is messing up her modelling career. This is while she is incarcerated, waiting for a sentence. And what does she say about the death of Halyna? Hannah is dismissive of the judge talking about someone dying as a result of her actions. Hannah says she's looking at 13 months, which is ridiculous over what happened. Hannah says that people have accidents and people die, it's an unfortunate part of life, but it doesn't mean she should be in jail.
A conditional discharge is not appropriate. And the second option of leaving you in the detention centre would be giving you a pass you do not deserve. I did not hear you take accountability in your allocution. You said you were sorry. You were sorry, but not you were sorry for what you did. You were sorry for, and hope they can find peace. It was your attorney that had to tell the court you were remorseful. The word remorse? A deep regret coming from a sense of guilt for past wrongs. That's not you.
You are hereby sentenced as follows, stand: I am sentencing you to 18 months of incarceration at a New Mexico Women's Correctional Facility. I find that what you did constitutes a serious violent offence, it was committed in a physically violent manner, a fatal gunshot done with your recklessness in the face of knowledge that your acts were reasonably likely to result in serious harm. You were the armourer, the one that stood between a safe weapon and a weapon that could kill someone. You alone turned a safe weapon into a lethal weapon. But for you, Miss Hutchins would be alive, a husband would have his partner and a little boy would have his mother. Please take her."
Ed Haywood
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That was actually a point of contention in the armorer trial. This is a picture of an ammo tray recovered on set. The bullet with the silver colored primer is a live round. The bullets with brass colored primers are dummies. The armorer took a selfie of herself with this tray of ammo in her lap. It was the prosecution's main evidence that she had definitively handled the live rounds. The defense responded that “you cannot tell a live round from a dummy by a picture.”
I agree, I don't know what the hell they were looking for by spinning the cylinder. But the AD testified that was the procedure, in addition to the armorer shaking each round to check the rattle before loading.
But that is why having the actor check the gun is useless. Dummy rounds have to be checked by a trained expert to properly identify them. Baldwin the actor knows less than we do about dummy rounds. That is why Baldwin the producer hired an armorer to inspect the rounds, and appointed the assistant director as safety coordinator to supervise the armorer. Once the rounds are checked by the expert and loaded into the gun, as verified by the AD, the actors do not mess with them.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
I agree. Per my post above, the color of the primer was apparently a discriminator. Which seems bananas, since other brands of primers are brass colored. To further complicate things, apparently some of the dummies did not rattle. Instead, they had a hole drilled in the case.
I would want a bright red plug in place of the primer, or some kind of unmistakable marking on the case, like a painted band.
Could be the answer is that the dummies were also placed in gun belts worn by the actors, as shown in this picture of the armorer. In that case, they would also want them to look real from the back side.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
I agree.
This is a lot like an aircraft plane crash. It was not one error, but a chain of F ups.
Dangerous practices by someone else, eg Yellowstone cast using props for a shooting day.
Poorly designed safety protocols, eg dummy rounds not unmistakably marked.
An inexperienced and immature armorer.
Organizational chaos - crew walking off set that morning.
Management pressure to continue.
GaryM
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Gary M
Her modeling career?
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I believe that AB is as responsible for this tragedy as the Assistant Director who pled guilty. If AB's attitude were contrite and humble, I would be more forgiving. Unfortunately, he has been belligerent and has lied multiple times.
I think that AB has had a long career in film and has handled firearms for film on many occasions. I find it hard to believe that in all of that time he was never taught anything about firearms or the safe handling of firearms, so am critical of arguments citing his ignorance as a reason for innocence.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Are you referring to Actors Equity? It's a stage actors' union, but Baldwin has been a member since 1986.
Here's their rules about guns on stage:
If these are introduced at his trial, he'll be sunk.
DaleB
Final Approach
Y'know, I was watching a really good WWII movie -- might have been Saving Private Ryan, might have been something else. Anyway, on more than one occasion we see a guy with a linked belt of .30 machinegun ammo - all lacking primers. Somehow the movie didn't fall apart because of it.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Yikes.
Relatively new around here so haven't read this entire thread. Don't know if this has been posted. For anyone interested, here are the union safety guidelines re: all sorts of things including firearms:
Plenty of blame to go around here which IMO justifies multiple convictions including AB. Looking at Safety Bulletin #1, the guidelines AB violated would include #'s 1, 2, 3 (arguably), and 6.
Also, from page 6, section 11 on firearms usage:
Plenty of blame to go around here which IMO justifies multiple convictions including AB. Looking at Safety Bulletin #1, the guidelines AB violated would include #'s 1, 2, 3 (arguably), and 6.
Also, from page 6, section 11 on firearms usage:
Ed Haywood
En-Route
And that is why his plea deal was revoked. He was originally offered 6 month probation. Then the government learned that he was planning a PR campaign to limit the damage to his reputation from the plea deal, and planned to sue the prosecutors and investigators.
His trial will probably focus on the circumstances under which he pulled the trigger. He claims he did not pull it, but the FBI tests determined that was impossible.
Was she contracted to be the armorer on that date?
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Good find. I attached safety bulletin 1, pages 13-16, which pertains to firearms and blanks.
Item #1 acknowledges that pointing guns at people is sometimes required to make a movie, and this is not forbidden by the safety rules.
Also note the bulletin establishes 2 formal roles, the Property Master and the Weapon's Handler. I believe those correspond to the Asst Director and Armorer on Rust. The bulletin makes it clear the Property Master is to personally load or supervise the loading of weapons.
...
2-Bit Speed
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2-Bit Speed
I think the words 'absolutely necessary' will under extreme examination in the trial. The defense will need to show that it was 'absolutely necessary' and that AB consulted with the prop-master or armorer, that Baldwin made every effort to follow the safety rules.
Personally, I don't think it was necessary for anyone to be downrage of a real firearm for that shot.