Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

Lon Stratton said:
...I'm a retired IATSE Local 600 cinematographer and have shot several projects involving firearms, and TRUST me, there are protocols, procedures and required personnel for this. I have some inside information on this incident and it was indeed an unfortunate chain of events.
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PaulS said:
My understanding is that if a gun is pointed at a camera and fired, the camera operator is not behind that camera. That's common sense. A scene can be rehearsed, the camera set up, and when the scene is shot, the camera is turned on, the operator gets out of the danger zone, then the action commences....
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Lon, does this sound accurate?
 
Haven't been here for a few pages. To lazy to get caught up so just gonna ask. Has there been anything on whether or not there was a bullet in the round. Or was it stuff from a blank that hit the victims?
 
probably too soon, but that's why we love reddit.........

vmfx7ek6j7v71.jpg
 
Warlock said:
If this happened on the street…and not on a movie set, Baldwin would be in jail…Ignorance of the condition of the weapon, would not be an excuse.
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No he wouldn’t, show me one case where a gun accident (truly an accident, not a suspicious accident) resulted in the person going to jail.
Involuntary manslaughter at best, maybe a few years probation, but no jail time.
 
I wonder how the support vs castigation of Baldwin would differ if he hadn’t appeared on SNL so many times making fun of that loud-mouthed, chubby, spray-tanned real estate guy that caught the hoax China Flu?
 
eman1200 said:
Lon, does this sound accurate?
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That is accurate. This was apparently a rehearsal when the weapon is supposed to be cleared by everyone before lining up the shot. I always insisted on handling the gun and clearing it myself then offering it to anyone on set who wanted to see it themselves. Then when it's time for the actual take, a huge deal is made out of clearing the crew, loading the weapon and rolling cameras. After the cut, the weapon is pointed down and taken by the armourer off set. Actors are supposed to be trained on weapons handling.

More details are now being made public (see the Daily Mail article above) and this LA Times article so everyone can read for themselves and draw their own conclusions. All I can say is this was SO unnecessary and tragic. No one should ever lose their life or even suffer an injury over a damn movie.
 
I have been present when a "Simulated" shootout took place.

The cast 'Sheriff' was the armorer.
He lined up the entire armed cast, and facing them, the entire unarmed cast.
My son and I were behind the unarmed cast, and saw all the prep completely.
The armorer drew his revolver, swung out the cylinder, and showed first the armed cast, individually, that it contained inserts that prevented non blanks from being loaded, then turned to the unarmed cast, and showed each of them the same. I could clearly see the inserts.

Then the armorer repeated this with each of the revolvers of the entire armed cast.

Everyone present had personally verified that the conditions on the set were safe from a live round being loaded in any firearm present.

That is the LAST step that should take place, every time. The first step took place prior to the revolvers being transported to the set, the armorer inspected each revolver after removing it from the safe, to be sure that all still had the inserts from the last use.

The armorer handed each revolver to an individual cast member, and and each of the armed cast personally inspected their assigned gun before holstering it.

Thus, every gun was inspected 3 times before blanks were issued at the scene of the gunfight.

The armorer counted out 6 blanks, said they were blanks, and the armed member of the cast announced, "6 blanks", and inserted them.

At the end of the gunfight, the Sherriff/Armorer lined up the armed cast, and verified that all cartridges were removed from the revolvers, sorted into fired and unfired, and placed in the correct boxes.

No blank ammunition left the set in a firearm. Period.

This on set procedure was repeated at each set, or separate time, even after a coffee break.

All this safety verification was on a very low budget, non union company.


Obviously, in the low budget, fast moving, and stressful filming location where Baldwin was, he did not do his part, the armorer did not do her part, and the cast/staff on site did not do their part. A lot of carelessness and shortcuts by everyone present was required to have this happen.

Further, why was there even a live round present? A projectile that passed through one person's shoulder, and into another shoulder, is not a blank, or even the wrong version of a blank.

edited to add:
Lon Stratton clearly documents that what I observed is close to the industry standard.
 
Lachlan said:
I wonder how the support vs castigation of Baldwin would differ if he hadn’t appeared on SNL so many times making fun of that loud-mouthed, chubby, spray-tanned real estate guy that caught the hoax China Flu?
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You mean if he was only a documented narcissistic hotheaded ******* who berates everyone around him and gets in fistfights over parking?

That's neither here nor there. I wouldn't support anyone who points a gun at someone and pulls the trigger. There's zero excuse for that.
 
Lachlan said:
I wonder how the support vs castigation of Baldwin would differ if he hadn’t appeared on SNL so many times making fun of that loud-mouthed, chubby, spray-tanned real estate guy that caught the hoax China Flu?
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I thought most of his skits were ok, if not funny. But his public temper tantrums, easily found online, did shade my opinion of him, especially the one where he berates his daughter.
 
Lon Stratton said:
That is accurate. This was apparently a rehearsal when the weapon is supposed to be cleared by everyone before lining up the shot. I always insisted on handling the gun and clearing it myself then offering it to anyone on set who wanted to see it themselves. Then when it's time for the actual take, a huge deal is made out of clearing the crew, loading the weapon and rolling cameras. After the cut, the weapon is pointed down and taken by the armourer off set. Actors are supposed to be trained on weapons handling.

More details are now being made public (see the Daily Mail article above) and this LA Times article so everyone can read for themselves and draw their own conclusions. All I can say is this was SO unnecessary and tragic. No one should ever lose their life or even suffer an injury over a damn movie.
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thanks. and looks like PaulS is off the hook.........for now :)
 
PaulS said:
Here is an article that gives some background and what looks to me like a good chronology of what happened. Reading through, it was pretty apparent there were many links in the chain that lead to this disaster.

'I wasn't sure if I was ready': Doubts of head armorer, 24, in charge of guns on Alec Baldwin film | Daily Mail Online
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  • 'Cold gun!' shouted Halls, a veteran assistant director who worked on Fargo and The Matrix Reloaded
    And that's one link in the chain. Followed by an actor/producer pointing it at someone and pulling the trigger.
 
PaulS said:
I thought most of his skits were ok, if not funny. But his public temper tantrums, easily found online, did shade my opinion of him, especially the one where he berates his daughter.
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This. Plus, I see more irony in the fact that he’s publicly blasted law enforcement shootings which occurred in split seconds under high stress, then shoots someone himself when it’s a movie set with no actual threat to him.

All that said, much like in aviation, the tragedy appears to be the result of numerous failed links in a chain.

The biggest question I have is why live rounds were even present…did someone donate their personal firearm to the cause? All the protocols should still be followed, but not having any live rounds allowed should be the first protocol I’d think…
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Bad example,
1. He’s black
2. Previous arrest
3. Was quoted “playing with guns”
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Yes because he is black so he should be assumed guilty…thank god the shooter in this case was White…so you realize how stupid that is… Also check Baldwins arrest record for assault…but he’s White…I guess Acting with real guns and playing with real guns makes a difference…

my post was “if this happened on the street…” LOL must of hit a white supremacy nerve…
 
RyanShort1 said:
But movies do teach. If you're really anti gun, don't be doing a film that teaches that a good guy with a gun is a legitimate option. The left loves to call out right-wing hypocrites, and they should, but it goes both ways.
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If you asked Michael Hall or Bryan Cranston for their views on serial killers or violent drug dealers, they'd probably express general disapproval. However, they both portrayed them sympathetically on screen. Are they hypocrites?

How about actors who take part in car chases but support speed limits, or who play medieval heroes while not being proponents of open-carrying broadswords in Wendy's?

I am sure that you can provide ever-more-specific rationalisations for why "Well, that's different", but in my opinion this criticism of Baldwin for hypocrisy is just an attempt to have a go at a guy whose politics the critic doesn't like, driven by emotion and not logic. I suspect the fact that he makes fun of certain people's political hero/cult leader has a lot to do with it too.

There's no credibility in an argument that depicting use of firearms in late 19th Century New Mexico has any meaningful parallel with opposition to 21st century gun violence, no matter how brashly Baldwin might express his views.
 
Katamarino said:
If you asked Michael Hall or Bryan Cranston for their views on serial killers or violent drug dealers, they'd probably express general disapproval. However, they both portrayed them sympathetically on screen. Are they hypocrites?

How about actors who take part in car chases but support speed limits, or who play medieval heroes while not being proponents of open-carrying broadswords in Wendy's?

I am sure that you can provide ever-more-specific rationalisations for why "Well, that's different", but in my opinion this criticism of Baldwin for hypocrisy is just an attempt to have a go at a guy whose politics the critic doesn't like, driven by emotion and not logic. I suspect the fact that he makes fun of certain people's political hero/cult leader has a lot to do with it too.

There's no credibility in an argument that depicting use of firearms in late 19th Century New Mexico has any meaningful parallel with opposition to 21st century gun violence, no matter how brashly Baldwin might express his views.
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Yeah, an actors job is to act, to play a character. Sometimes they do use that as an opportunity to play a character in a particular way that reflects their own politics, though. I don’t know anything about this character, though.
 
This appears to be a classic Swiss Cheese "accident" case.

Several events leading to the eventual breach of safety protocols and the event were made worse by the decisions made by those in charge. The statements overheard and publicly repeated should have been red flags.

Accident investigations all look at the same types of facts, whether in an aviation environment or any other. This one is pretty obvious to anyone who has studied such cases.
 
Katamarino said:
If you asked Michael Hall or Bryan Cranston for their views on serial killers or violent drug dealers, they'd probably express general disapproval. However, they both portrayed them sympathetically on screen.
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Heisenberg was supposed to be a sympathetic character?
 
Warlock said:
Yes because he is black so he should be assumed guilty…thank god the shooter in this case was White…so you realize how stupid that is… Also check Baldwins arrest record for assault…but he’s White…I guess Acting with real guns and playing with real guns makes a difference…

my post was “if this happened on the street…” LOL must of hit a white supremacy nerve…
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Uh? I didn’t say any of that, just pointing out he’s more likely to be arrested because he’s black. That’s a BLM nerve.
 
Lindberg said:
Heisenberg was supposed to be a sympathetic character?
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"Portrayed them sympathetically" means in a manner that leads us to have sympathy/support for the character; not that the character is sympathetic.
 
I have never liked his persona, either on or off screen, especially that rant regarding his daughter. Had no idea about his stance on guns. However it seems as if someone more familiar with handling them might have been more cautious even if someone told them it was "cold". I agree with many others that there are probably many factors that led up to this tragedy.
 
Katamarino said:
If you asked Michael Hall or Bryan Cranston for their views on serial killers or violent drug dealers, they'd probably express general disapproval. However, they both portrayed them sympathetically on screen. Are they hypocrites?

How about actors who take part in car chases but support speed limits, or who play medieval heroes while not being proponents of open-carrying broadswords in Wendy's?

I am sure that you can provide ever-more-specific rationalisations for why "Well, that's different", but in my opinion this criticism of Baldwin for hypocrisy is just an attempt to have a go at a guy whose politics the critic doesn't like, driven by emotion and not logic. I suspect the fact that he makes fun of certain people's political hero/cult leader has a lot to do with it too.

There's no credibility in an argument that depicting use of firearms in late 19th Century New Mexico has any meaningful parallel with opposition to 21st century gun violence, no matter how brashly Baldwin might express his views.
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I’ve been around/enjoyed guns for all but 5 of my 44 years on this planet…never known a gun to be violent. People being violent with a gun? Sure. But none of mine have kept off the counter and harmed someone. Like “assault rifle,” “gun violence” is a made-up term to cause people to see guns (an object with no ability to cause harm on their own) as evil and scary. Stop fueling the BS narrative.
 
Katamarino said:
"Portrayed them sympathetically" means in a manner that leads us to have sympathy/support for the character; not that the character is sympathetic.
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I know what it means.

If a character in a book or movie is shown sympathetically, they are described or shown in such a way that you are able to understand the character's feelings, with the result that you like them
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/sympathetically

Heisenberg was a brutal and narcissistic psychopath. I don't really identify with that.
 
Listening to it on NPR yesterday

Blamed on using real guns, blamed on everyone, props, even lack of worker pay!, everyone and everything except the guy who pulled the trigger.
If someone handed me a actual pistol and told me to shoot it at people for a video, and trust us it has blanks, I’d still inspect every round.

Personal responsibility is for everyone minus the elite, even B lister elite I guess.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
No I mean I bet some young genius will develop a "weapon" that looks and sounds real and replicates all the gun things but doesn't do the actual gun thing.
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I won’t watch

These days the CGI everything is annoying and a substitute for creativity

Compare the old alien and Jurassic park to the new stuff, that old rubber and silicone of the 90s and even 80s still looks better than the CGI all the things we have today.

CGI is great for small touch ups, but if I want CGI everything I’ll just watch video games.
 
Tantalum said:
This is what is most surprising to me. With the amount of money Hollywood has and the general "guns are evil" mantra I'm very surprised they use actual guns.
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Same Hollywood that will fly 2 people, from their beach front homes, drive Escalade SUVs to a Gulf Stream jet, G wagons to the studio, to talk
about climate change and how those dirty middle class people should be ashamed for not selling their paid for 1998 F150 for a 150k Tesla cyber truck?
 
IK04 said:
This appears to be a classic Swiss Cheese "accident" case.

Several events leading to the eventual breach of safety protocols and the event were made worse by the decisions made by those in charge. The statements overheard and publicly repeated should have been red flags.

Accident investigations all look at the same types of facts, whether in an aviation environment or any other. This one is pretty obvious to anyone who has studied such cases.
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seems simple to me

aviation wise if you don’t preflight your ship, walk in, start and pull collective, with a skid still tied down, dynamic roll over, and try to blame Atlantic aviation for not untying it for you, blame line workers low pay, blame the rope industry, it won’t turn out well.

the actor was in command of the weapon, he pointed and shot, someone is dead, that would be jail time if it was you or I. These days if we didn’t have double standards we wouldn’t have any standards at all.
 
BladeSlap said:
seems simple to me

aviation wise if you don’t preflight your ship, walk in, start and pull collective, with a skid still tied down, dynamic roll over, and try to blame Atlantic aviation for not untying it for you, blame line workers low pay, blame the rope industry, it won’t turn out well.

the actor was in command of the weapon, he pointed and shot, someone is dead, that would be jail time if it was you or I. These days if we didn’t have double standards we wouldn’t have any standards at all.
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How about if you have a specialist A&P do your annual, then an IA signs off on it, then you do your due diligence of a preflight and on takeoff a cylinder plows thru your cowling and you nosedive into the ground killing a line guy, are you the douchebag people are making Baldwin out to be because you’re a liberal fktard?
 
eman1200 said:
How about if you have a specialist A&P do your annual, then an IA signs off on it, then you do your due diligence of a preflight and on takeoff a cylinder plows thru your cowling and you nosedive into the ground killing a line guy, are you the douchebag people are making Baldwin out to be because you’re a liberal fktard?
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Fuel is to plane
as
Bullets are to gun

I take off with 2 gallons and crash, don’t bother to check the fuel, but the whomever said it was full, I think my career just ended if not life, and let the lawsuits roll
 
Here's "Taking Off'"'s Dan Millican's take on the situation. He's a film director.

 
Justin M said:
Here's "Taking Off'"'s Dan Millican's take on the situation. He's a film director.

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I actually unsubscribed to his channel. I feel bad cause I know he tries hard but I’ve had zero interest in anything he puts out in a long time. Sorry Dan!
 
Justin M said:
Here's "Taking Off'"'s Dan Millican's take on the situation. He's a film director.

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Because Hollywood has a track history of personal responsibility.

It’s always the maids fault, or the sets and props guys, it’s the fault of the help, or even the dumb viewers, for all of the worlds wrongs, NEVER the fault of the face of Hollywood.

I accidentally shot someone and it made the news, you bet Baldwin would be screaming for me to go to jail, as a evil gun owner, but when he shoots and kills more people then the average gun owner, “well, see, uh that’s different, it was this other guys fault, not my fault, I just pulled the trigger”
 
geezer said:
Not right, eman, he did not preflight, and took off with the control lock in.

Closer parallel.
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So after your annual you check cylinder pressure on each cylinder?
 
eman1200 said:
So after your annual you check cylinder pressure on each cylinder?
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Do you shoot?

My pre teen family members, who don’t get paid to play with guns, can clear a weapon and verify a clear barrel

If that was a pro 2a YouTube channel making a fake shootout video and this happed, most of the same people would correctly blame the guy who pulled the trigger
 
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BladeSlap said:
Fuel is to plane
as
Bullets are to gun

I take off with 2 gallons and crash, don’t bother to check the fuel, but the whomever said it was full, I think my career just ended if not life, and let the lawsuits roll
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sorry, that's silly. as pilot you're responsible for fuel, no one else. on a film set, there are SPECILISTS who's sole job is to handle the firearm stuff so the other specialist, known as an actor, doesn't have to.
 
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