Airsickness

[PHXAvi8tor]

Have pre-solo student that frequently gets airsick and we have to curtail the flight.

Done all the usual IMSAFE checks. Also, it doesn't matter what he eats, or whether he eats, before flight: He'll still get airsick.

It's to the point that I am concerned about solo'ing him because he might be unable to fly the plane if he gets struck by one of these episodes.

I have referred him back to the doctor that issued his airman's medical, for consultation.

I have a theory: I believe that the airsickness is stress-related. I noticed that when he really messes up a maneuver (which is quite often), he just shuts down. Things go from bad to worse, and before you know it, he's dizzy, nauseauted, flushed, and unable to fly.

(I bet I am adding to the problem when I go into full-on instructor mode and take the controls to demonstrate the maneuver with which he is struggling. I worry I am then overloading him with too much information at a time when he already is kicking himself hard, overwhelmed, and perhaps even fearful, although I am not sure what he fears, except perhaps failure.)

Would love to hear from any docs or anyone else with experience. Am I on to something with the notion of stress-related airsickness? Or, might there be a larger issue here?

 

[jmaynard]

I have a theory: I believe that the airsickness is stress-related. I noticed that when he really messes up a maneuver (which is quite often), he just shuts down. Things go from bad to worse, and before you know it, he's dizzy, nauseauted, flushed, and unable to fly.

I'm not a doc, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but stress about flying definitely does not help my susceptibility with airsickness. The only times I've gotten airsick, we've been doing maneuvers that had me quite nervous.

It would seem to me that two approaches could possibly help here:
1) How is he messing up maneuvers? Improving his confidence seems to be called for. Your description sounds like a vicious circle: he messes up a bit, then it snowballs and he loses it. If you keep it from snowballing, then he'll learn that he really can fly the airplane, and that'll help matters a lot.
2) The mechanical/electric wristbands could well help; the electric one got me through spin training.

As someone that hopes to be a CFI before very much longer (as in, all I need is for the weather to cooperate with my travel schedule for a few days), I'd love to hear the answer to this one.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

It would seem to me that two approaches could possibly help here:
1) How is he messing up maneuvers? Improving his confidence seems to be called for. Your description sounds like a vicious circle: he messes up a bit, then it snowballs and he loses it. If you keep it from snowballing, then he'll learn that he really can fly the airplane, and that'll help matters a lot.
2) The mechanical/electric wristbands could well help; the electric one got me through spin training.

Very good thoughts. I think you might be right about needing to build confidence. Also, emphasize the positive. During the debrief, I did this, after the flight, and he seemed to just light up. "Replace the negative thoughts with positive ones," I told him. "You can do this! I know you can!"

I just worry what might happen if he were out solo and got this sick. Hoping it is not a medical condition.

Hope to hear what some others have to say, as well.

 

[Tristar]

There are many different factors that cause airsickness. It is possible to have an ear disorder to where you're more susceptible to motion sickness however that would be up to a doctor to determine rather than me. The biggest one many experience is stress related. Some get it easier when the temperature is uncomfortable. There are a couple things I would try. First off, if it is stress related, try a lesson where he is only focused on the things he's good at even if the flight is short, give him a comparable amount of praise. This will build confidence. Another thing I would try is going on a fun flight to where you both are not focusing on learning stalls, emergencies, things that can make a student nervous. Maybe fly somewhere for lunch, show him that flying is fun and not scary. This should also help with relaxation.

I'm sure you've heard of the common cures and helpful tips for motion sickness. It really depends on the person. Some I've heard: Ginger root vitamins, dont eat anything greasy or acidic, make sure to eat something like crackers or granola bars, keep lots of cool air flowing in the cabin before and especially during motion sickness, stay hydrated. Fly in the mornings during the cooler and less bumpy weather. There are other options such as the SeaBands and the Relief Band although I haven't had much luck.

Understand that motion sickness sometimes never goes away. I'm susceptible to it and I know others that are. You just learn to deal with it and if it gets bad enough, land and relax. However, I'm not there to see how bad his case is so use what sounds best out of our posts and give it a little time, if that doesn't work you might want to let him fly with another CFI to see if he gets nervious with your style of teaching. If all else fails, ask an AME.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sounds like stress, so take the stress away. Try flying a lesson or two without maneuvers -- just hop to the next airport for coffee/coke and back. Keep it relaxed and happy -- sightseeing, etc.

Also, try spending more time on the ground describing and discussing the maneuvers in detail, including what to do and when to do it, so the trainee can mentally fly through the maneuvers before getting in the airplane.

And yes, after he has screwed up the maneuver, don't try to immediately demo it. Take the controls, have the trainee take a deep breath and relax a minute, and then have the trainee talk through what happened. Discuss it quietly with the wings level before you give back the controls, and make sure the trainee is back to normal before doing the maneuver again or demo'ing it.

Finally, nervousness is a communicable disease -- if you don't appear calm and relaxed, your trainee will tense up. Make sure you are part of the solution, not the source of the problem.

 

[KennyFlys]

Ditto to Ron. Go make a fun flight or two. Rather than taking the role as an instructor, simply offer assistance if he needs it. Otherwise, let him fly the plane to the best of his ability. That doesn't mean let him have substantial deviations where it may be unsafe. But, it sounds like he's capable until the stress level comes up. So, make it so he can do a flight somewhere without any.

Heck, it sounds like an excuse for some BBQ brisket. But, do you really want to fly all the way to Texas?

Good luck with him.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I was plagued with airsickness as a student. As you say, many times we had to return early because of it. Don't assume it is stress or psychological. This is the miracle that helped me.
http://www.aeromedix.com/product-ex...nd_Electronic_Band_For_Motion_Sickness_Relief

Whatever euphemism you use -- puking, urping, barfing, power yawn -- motion sickness is a huge problem for aviation. It's a common reason for student pilots to quit, a major impediment to aerobatic training, and such a serious problem for passengers that many pilots can't coax spouses or children to fly with them.

I have given the device to a sailor friend, one taking chemotherapy and to a pregnant woman with morning sickness. It helped them, as well.

 

[Henning]

Have pre-solo student that frequently gets airsick and we have to curtail the flight.

Done all the usual IMSAFE checks. Also, it doesn't matter what he eats, or whether he eats, before flight: He'll still get airsick.

It's to the point that I am concerned about solo'ing him because he might be unable to fly the plane if he gets struck by one of these episodes.

I have referred him back to the doctor that issued his airman's medical, for consultation.

I have a theory: I believe that the airsickness is stress-related. I noticed that when he really messes up a maneuver (which is quite often), he just shuts down. Things go from bad to worse, and before you know it, he's dizzy, nauseauted, flushed, and unable to fly.

(I bet I am adding to the problem when I go into full-on instructor mode and take the controls to demonstrate the maneuver with which he is struggling. I worry I am then overloading him with too much information at a time when he already is kicking himself hard, overwhelmed, and perhaps even fearful, although I am not sure what he fears, except perhaps failure.)

Would love to hear from any docs or anyone else with experience. Am I on to something with the notion of stress-related airsickness? Or, might there be a larger issue here?

Bigger problems, this guy isn't wired to be a pilot.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

(I bet I am adding to the problem when I go into full-on instructor mode and take the controls to demonstrate the maneuver with which he is struggling.

Perhaps not the best idea - it's a lot easier to get sick with someone else at the controls. Particularly if you are maneuvering. Have the student just do straight and level 'til he settles down after a screw-up.

 

[Henning]

Sounds like stress, so take the stress away. Try flying a lesson or two without maneuvers -- just hop to the next airport for coffee/coke and back. Keep it relaxed and happy -- sightseeing, etc.

The causer of the stress is not the issue, the reaction to the stress is what's at issue. Aviation has a way of throwing stress at you fast and hard with no warning. Aviators need to always play the hand, even if it's a bluff. The may never fold the hand they're dealt. The propensity to withdraw and fold is a major danger sign. He needs to be sat down and talked to about this. Someone needs to set him straight that this is unallowable, and from now on there should be no recovery by the CFI until imminently required to prevent death. The instructor taking over provides the opportunity for the student to withdraw. You have to find out if he will suffer incapacitation if there is no option to turn the plane over. If the student can't get to this point by hour 20, they probably should be sat down again and told honestly that they are probably not suited to being PIC, and there is a good chance that no matter how much longer they train, they never will be licensed or possibly even soloed. If they still want to continue after a bit of introspection with that info, fine. But to continue them training, without telling them about this potential reality I feel is dishonest and "milking" the student, and then you end up with more headaches.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, not everyone is wired to be PIC. It is not a judgment of the person, just the situation. It is neither good nor bad, it just is. As Clint said, "A man's gotta know his limits", and this is a fatal limit.

 

[B2Soar]

I think you are right Henning. The "truth" is sometimes harsh but nevertheless still the truth.

Rick

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

The causer of the stress is not the issue, the reaction to the stress is what's at issue. Aviation has a way of throwing stress at you fast and hard with no warning. Aviators need to always play the hand, even if it's a bluff. The may never fold the hand they're dealt. The propensity to withdraw and fold is a major danger sign. He needs to be sat down and talked to about this. Someone needs to set him straight that this is unallowable, and from now on there should be no recovery by the CFI until imminently required to prevent death. The instructor taking over provides the opportunity for the student to withdraw. You have to find out if he will suffer incapacitation if there is no option to turn the plane over. If the student can't get to this point by hour 20, they probably should be sat down again and told honestly that they are probably not suited to being PIC, and there is a good chance that no matter how much longer they train, they never will be licensed or possibly even soloed. If they still want to continue after a bit of introspection with that info, fine. But to continue them training, without telling them about this potential reality I feel is dishonest and "milking" the student, and then you end up with more headaches.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, not everyone is wired to be PIC. It is not a judgment of the person, just the situation. It is neither good nor bad, it just is. As Clint said, "A man's gotta know his limits", and this is a fatal limit.

While I do agree that some of our students will never become licensed; we also gotta give them maximum opportunities first.

I am not sure I have maximized this kid's opportunities, or dealt with his airsickness problem correctly. After I have done so, if he still isn't responding, then, certainly it is time to tell him he's "not wired" to be a pilot.

However, I totally agree with your thoughts on the hazardous attitude of resignation/withdrawal. Sounds like I need to dust off the list of hazardous attitudes and their antidotes and go over it with the student. (I did have a talk with him about the importance of "Straighten up and fly right." He seemed to appreciate that. Now, I need to reinforce it.)

 

[John Baker]

In the military (Airborne) I had a very serious airsickness problem. My ninth jump I was so sick I could not stand up, they had to make a door bundle out of me.

My tenth jump, a very large mess sergeant pulled me out of the line waiting to load up to go to the airport. He took me into the mess hall and loaded a tray with cold mashed potatoes and saltine crackers, nothing to drink. He ordered me to start eating, all of it. I protested. He loudly explained to me in a way I would be able to understand him, that he was not ASKING me.

He then went into a very long, loud tirade about what a little coward I must be, a real mamas boy, last person on earth he would want in a firefight with him, and so on and on. When he was convinced I was trying to figure a way of fraging him, he gave me his theory on airsickness.

First off he explained, airsickness is triggered by fear. The next thing that will get it going is liquids in your stomach. He said he watched me downing the coffee and eating next to nothing before jumps. I said the trucks were there and I had to go. Not until you finish all that food, all of it. I'll give you a ride to the airport.

He said the food I was eating will absorb every drop of liquid in my stomach.

He drove me to the airport and helped me select the crappiest looking parachute he could find in the pile. He kept hammering away at what a little coward I was, he was getting me as ****ed off as he possibly could. He walked me out to the plane and watched me get on board (a C-123) so I wouldn't sneak back and find a better looking parachute, which of course had nothing to do with what was inside the pack I was so worried about.

Usually, as soon as I got on board one of those jump planes, it started. The kerosene smell or whatever would do it. Not this time, nothing happened. We got in the air, bumpy air, nothing happened. I did not have even a hint of motion sickness, and have never experienced it to this day.

That very large, black mess sergeant did one of the biggest favors anyone has ever done for me, and I never even knew his name. This all took place in the spring of 1961.

John

 

[jmaynard]

The propensity to withdraw and fold is a major danger sign. He needs to be sat down and talked to about this. Someone needs to set him straight that this is unallowable, and from now on there should be no recovery by the CFI until imminently required to prevent death.

Henning, this sounds like something a crusty old fart in the back of a Cub with a sectional and no intercom would say right before beating the student about the head and shoulders with said sectional - and then charging the student for replacing it.

I agree that the hazardous attitude needs to be dealt with. However, your approach is calculated to chase him right out of aviation. We can't afford to do that, for anyone who's willing and able to fly. Aviation is not just for lantern-jawed comic book heroes who can hold off entire opposing battalions with a 1911. It's for everyone.

I'd have that discussion with the student only after taking him for the fun flights Ken mentioned and seeing if he was still interested - and then only in the context of explaining why whatever he was having trouble with is something he needs to learn to deal with, and why dealing with it appropriately and not giving up on it is necessary and important.

Instructors need to remember that students are their customers, and customer service is vital to keeping general aviation viable.

 

[John Baker]

Unless the issue of motion sickness is permanently solved for the pilot wannabe, in all probability, even with a ticket, that person will leave G.A. for good, sooner, than later.

John

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I agree that the hazardous attitude needs to be dealt with. However, your approach is calculated to chase him right out of aviation. We can't afford to do that, for anyone who's willing and able to fly.

Which is worse for GA: Having that student pilot crash and die (whether short or long term) and make bad news, or just telling them to find another expensive hobby 'cuz this one ain't for them?

Aviation is not just for lantern-jawed comic book heroes who can hold off entire opposing battalions with a 1911. It's for everyone.

I agree, but only to a point. There are a lot of people in this world who just plain cannot do it. Most of the time, those of us who are successful enough in life to be able to afford to fly do not have to deal with stupid idiots. I worked in the trucking industry just long enough to know that there are a LOT more stupid idiots in this world than I thought there were.

*Most* of the people who show up to the airport at least have done enough self-evaluation to know whether THEY think they can do it. I do think that this particular guy still has a chance - But at some point, if he and his instructors (plural) cannot overcome his "something's going wrong so my body and brain are going to shut down" problem, it is, sadly, better for all of us if he does not learn to fly. Hopefully the people that can't make it will still be airport bums and support our initiatives politically, but it really is best for them and for us if they stay as just an enthusiast, rather than become a pilot and end up in the headlines.

 

[KennyFlys]

It makes no sense to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let Ben give the kid a chance. Simply have a couple flights for pure fun. Make a short cross country someplace for a bite but without the flight planning. Give him a chance to relax and see how much fun flying can be and that it doesn't have to be stressful.

There are some hard core folks here whom I'm sure had their own difficult moments at some point during flight training. One of the most important traits I learned that is required for instructing is patience. While I have very little patience for many things I've found a unique ability with my students. I'll put forth whatever effort it takes to meet a student's needs.

In the last month, I've watched one student go from jumping just at a large, flat screen on the simulator and really going nuts in stalls to now handling stalls very well and with excellent recoveries. I have another student who had a deathly look of fear on his face during slow flight to now handling stalls without a blink and also with excellent recoveries. In both cases, we're over twenty hours into training and nearly ten grand each. Would it have been better to have given up on both? I hardly think so.

Late last year, I had a student who was also very afraid of stalls. Over time, they became a benign event for him with excellent recovery procedures. A few months later, he passed his checkride. That student is a Marine; not your typical Marine. In eight years he was well decorated and chosen to become part of HMX-1 as a mechanic. He declined as he wanted to fly, even as a gunner. It was his CH-53 that rescued Scott O'Grady. They returned to the carrier with over seventy bullet holes in the helo; more than twenty in the rotor blades. This only goes to show even the toughest have their difficulties.

Give the kid a chance.

 

[BigAL]

This is great reading for us noob's. I've done alot of reading on the net about motion sickness as I also have a problem w/it. Some of it could be mind over matter, some could be just the way some peoples bodies are made.

One thing I noticed when I would get sick, it was cause I was nervous, hot, and the smell & sound of the airplane. I've also noticed that the more I get in the air, the longer I can handle it.

Everyone is different, but I know if I have trouble.....I'm gonna be look'n for a big, black mess sgt.

What ever you do, don't give up on him. Your also learn'n something that may come up again. You'll find the answer.

Thanks for post'n this thread, it really is good read'n for someone like me. Good luck.

 

[AuntPeggy]

No, really, airsickness is real. And it can be helped.
http://www.aeromedix.com/product-ex...nd_Electronic_Band_For_Motion_Sickness_Relief

 

[BigAL]

No, really, airsickness is real. And it can be helped.
http://www.aeromedix.com/product-ex...nd_Electronic_Band_For_Motion_Sickness_Relief

I've got that saved in fav's. A bit pricey, but if my "plan" fails it'll be plan b.

Thanks for the link, I do appreciate it.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

This has turned out to be a much better topic than I expected, and I am glad it is helpful to many others.

Here's a new wrench in the topic that I just realized/remembered:

The student barely is able to train once a week due a busy schedule. On top of that, his study habits and skills are very poor. He often shows up unprepared, and rusty for his next lesson. We've had numerous talks about it.

But, it's almost like this kid is setting himself up for failure, even when admonished that he will fail unless he: 1.) Studies between flights, 2.) Prepares for each flight (even caught him copying old weight-and-balances, and nipped that in the bud!) and 3.) Finds ways to make his flight training more of a priority in the overall scheme of his life.

So, I think he shows up expecting that, magically, he's going to be a great pilot without all the preparation and work it requires.

Therefore, while I agree that finding a fun flight for a stressed-out student is a good idea, I wonder how I can afford it with him? It almost seems like I need to get tougher with him, but then that adds to the stress, and feeds into the airsickness. Vicious cycle.

 

[poadeleted20]

So, I think he shows up expecting that, magically, he's going to be a great pilot without all the preparation and work it requires.

Sounds like a lot of my students at the university. Reading? Homework? Study? No time -- too busy with their social lives.

 

[Henning]

Henning, this sounds like something a crusty old fart in the back of a Cub with a sectional and no intercom would say right before beating the student about the head and shoulders with said sectional - and then charging the student for replacing it.

I agree that the hazardous attitude needs to be dealt with. However, your approach is calculated to chase him right out of aviation. We can't afford to do that, for anyone who's willing and able to fly. Aviation is not just for lantern-jawed comic book heroes who can hold off entire opposing battalions with a 1911. It's for everyone.

I'd have that discussion with the student only after taking him for the fun flights Ken mentioned and seeing if he was still interested - and then only in the context of explaining why whatever he was having trouble with is something he needs to learn to deal with, and why dealing with it appropriately and not giving up on it is necessary and important.

Instructors need to remember that students are their customers, and customer service is vital to keeping general aviation viable.

That is incorrect, it is what we must do to those incapable of operating safely as PIC. What we don't need is another statistic. Every time someone manages to kill themselves and family, someone is pushing a new rule or restriction or other agenda further limiting GA. We have to police ourselves. My approach will put in no uncertain terms what will happen if they don't correct this issue, and it is an issue that is not always correctable. Another thing we don't need is another 100hr pre solo student whining how they are getting ripped off by their instructor. This is an issue of full disclosure. If the student has all the information, including the reality check about their imminent death, then they can choose to make an informed decission on whether to quit or not. I never said to boot the guy, just to give him vital information and a reality check before continuing. To not do so would for me be unethical, because my bet is the guy isn't going to cut it, so I need to let them know that and why before I continue taking their money. Then they can make their choice under full disclosure. It is their money to spend, however if I don't tell them when I figure it out, then any money they spend between that time and the time they quit, I have stolen from them. If I don't bring it up and he goes and kills himself and wife leaving orphans, that's on me as well. It's about professional ethics. I guess I think differently, might be the industries I operate in. I'm not IT, if I make an error, it's not someone not getting their email. I work where when people make mistakes, people die, and it's often not just them. I have had deckhands in the oilfield 40+ years older than I who know their job inside and out who won't advance because they have seen the consequences of mistakes and do not want the responsibility of command. Command responsibility is something that is woefully lacking in PP training. It gets dealt with a bit better at the 121 level, but at PP it's nearly non existent. Command responsibility is an awesome responsibility and is a stressor in and of itself.
The "Fun Flights" are completely irrelevant. He is not PIC under pressure. The guy isn't getting airsick, the guy is stressing himself into puking, most likely with self doubt/self worth issues, which I am making a reasonable guess was why he took up aviation in the first place, "To accomplish something and build confidence". This can be done to a limited extent, but for a person a bit more incapacitated by it, it probably shouldn't be the first step. Any and every flight no matter what the range, conditions or intent, has the ability to become highly stressful at any moment. His reaction to a "Fun Flight" is not telling on his later reaction to a stressor. As I said, I didn't declare to boot him, just make them fully aware.

 

[BigAL]

This has turned out to be a much better topic than I expected, and I am glad it is helpful to many others.

Here's a new wrench in the topic that I just realized/remembered:

The student barely is able to train once a week due a busy schedule. On top of that, his study habits and skills are very poor. He often shows up unprepared, and rusty for his next lesson. We've had numerous talks about it.

But, it's almost like this kid is setting himself up for failure, even when admonished that he will fail unless he: 1.) Studies between flights, 2.) Prepares for each flight (even caught him copying old weight-and-balances, and nipped that in the bud!) and 3.) Finds ways to make his flight training more of a priority in the overall scheme of his life.

So, I think he shows up expecting that, magically, he's going to be a great pilot without all the preparation and work it requires.

Therefore, while I agree that finding a fun flight for a stressed-out student is a good idea, I wonder how I can afford it with him? It almost seems like I need to get tougher with him, but then that adds to the stress, and feeds into the airsickness. Vicious cycle.

He doesn't respect aviation, nor takes much responsibility. Sounds like a ....well, a kid. PIC is not a right, and he is going about it wrong.

Good luck, sounds like "puke'n in the plane" is about the least of your worries.

 

[gismo]

This has turned out to be a much better topic than I expected, and I am glad it is helpful to many others.

Here's a new wrench in the topic that I just realized/remembered:

The student barely is able to train once a week due a busy schedule. On top of that, his study habits and skills are very poor. He often shows up unprepared, and rusty for his next lesson. We've had numerous talks about it.

But, it's almost like this kid is setting himself up for failure, even when admonished that he will fail unless he: 1.) Studies between flights, 2.) Prepares for each flight (even caught him copying old weight-and-balances, and nipped that in the bud!) and 3.) Finds ways to make his flight training more of a priority in the overall scheme of his life.

So, I think he shows up expecting that, magically, he's going to be a great pilot without all the preparation and work it requires.

Therefore, while I agree that finding a fun flight for a stressed-out student is a good idea, I wonder how I can afford it with him? It almost seems like I need to get tougher with him, but then that adds to the stress, and feeds into the airsickness. Vicious cycle.

I was going to say that as far as safety goes, the student's judgment abilities should count far more than any propensity towards airsickness but your last post makes me think that this one's judgment is also sub par. In any case, while some folks are definitely more susceptible to motion sickness than others, I don't think anyone is immune and AFaIK everyone's tolerance improves with exposure. I don't think I've ever become airsick or seasick under "normal" conditions including continuous moderate turbulence in the air and navigating 10 ft waves in a 16 ft boat but 20-30 minutes of aerobatics will make me ready to land if I haven't been flying high g maneuvers in a while. And I totally disagree with Henning that a tendency to experience motion sickness should in any way be considered to be cause for rejection from the flying community. As long as he's willing and able to work through the problem (including learning that he can indeed fly safely even if he's feeling nauseous) I firmly believe this problem can be overcome.

So, as far as the motion sickness aspect goes I think that more flights and specifically flights with limited maneuvering will improve this student's ability to fly without experiencing the nausea and should help prevent a subconscious association between flying and airsickness. But the lack of preparation and apparent attempts to skip important ground work needs attention. Hopefully you can convince him that his lax attitude is incompatible with flying safety. Meanwhile you could combine the two issues by telling him the next time he shows up unprepared that he's not going to have a "real" lesson today, just a simple "fun" flight sans nausea inducing maneuvers and anxiety.

 

[Henning]

This has turned out to be a much better topic than I expected, and I am glad it is helpful to many others.

Here's a new wrench in the topic that I just realized/remembered:

The student barely is able to train once a week due a busy schedule. On top of that, his study habits and skills are very poor. He often shows up unprepared, and rusty for his next lesson. We've had numerous talks about it.

But, it's almost like this kid is setting himself up for failure, even when admonished that he will fail unless he: 1.) Studies between flights, 2.) Prepares for each flight (even caught him copying old weight-and-balances, and nipped that in the bud!) and 3.) Finds ways to make his flight training more of a priority in the overall scheme of his life.

So, I think he shows up expecting that, magically, he's going to be a great pilot without all the preparation and work it requires.

Therefore, while I agree that finding a fun flight for a stressed-out student is a good idea, I wonder how I can afford it with him? It almost seems like I need to get tougher with him, but then that adds to the stress, and feeds into the airsickness. Vicious cycle.

Are you kidding? With what you just added to the pot? This kid is most likely never going to be suitable for command, and he will probably need a pshrink to stand even a chance. You need to tell him that before you take another dime from him. Professional Ethics, remember, you're a pilot, you gotta keep your kharma squared up. You are doing him no favors by continuing without laying everything on the table. If it was me in your position, the next dime I took before I told him what I thought would be theft. This is all part of the CFI, IIRC you a burdened not only with teaching but providing assessment of the students overall suitability when you sign off the 8710. You are (or should feel) also morally burdened with doing your best job to keep him from killing himself and others. You have to think to yourself, "If this kid kills himself, what will I feel guilty about having left undone?" and make sure you have all those issues covered.

If you and he feel that he should continue after having a "Full Disclosure" conversation, then I think you may want to shift tacks in his training for a lesson or two. Don't worry about the standards of the maneuvers, go back to working on basic control of the airplane, and demonstrate the aircrafts full operating envelope so he's not afraid to use the controls thinking he's going to break the plane. That is often an issue with people who have confidence issues (did you ask him why he was copying the W&Bs?), they're afraid to use the controls (I bet he makes really shallow banks and skids on the turn to final as well) because they're afraid of breaking the airplane because theis is new and they don't know. Demonstrate steep turns using 60* 2G turns, when you go into it, stand on the rudder, throw the wing down and haul back on the yoke, make him go "HO!" and feel it. Demonstrate to him a high energy 3g pull to a steep climb, and then nose it over at 1/2-0gs as the energy bleeds towards stall speed until you're pointed steeply at the ground in a full slip, then go into a 90*bank 2.5g spiral gaining and scrubbing energy at the same and roll it out arresting the descent into straight and level cruise flight. Have him ride the controls with you the whole time, and take your time transitioning into some of the harder g pulls so he gets introduced to the correlation between yoke position and gs and just how far he can pull and push on this thing and about what rate he wants to be moving it for what effect. During all this, you can distract him a bit with the demonstration and discussion of an accelerated stall. Show him in no uncertain terms where the edges of the envelope are so he can determine that he is still safe. If you want to keep this student, you need to step up to the plate and give him more than the average student, because he's going to need every bit of it. Develop a routine for him to fly, to no real standard, just to feel and hear, no over g stress, no over speed, a sequence of maneuvers. If you are not familiar with the gs, there are cheap accelerometers you can take with you. If you have an iPhone, I bet there's an app for it....

 

[poadeleted20]

But the lack of preparation and apparent attempts to skip important ground work needs attention.

Go dig around in the AIH under Law of Readiness, Defense Mechanisms (esp. Flight), and Anxiety and Stress (Ch 2).

 

[Everskyward]

Here's a new wrench in the topic that I just realized/remembered:

The student barely is able to train once a week due a busy schedule. On top of that, his study habits and skills are very poor. He often shows up unprepared, and rusty for his next lesson. We've had numerous talks about it.

Why is it that he's learning how to fly? Is it someone else's idea? I think that some of the most difficult students are the ones who are being pushed by someone else, their spouse, their parents or even their friends. If you don't have the motivation yourself, it's a hard thing to accomplish. Most people like this self-select and eventually drop out because the stress makes it unpleasant. This is particularly the case if someone thought the whole process would be fun.

 

[Henning]

I was going to say that as far as safety goes, the student's judgment abilities should count far more than any propensity towards airsickness but your last post makes me think that this one's judgment is also sub par. In any case, while some folks are definitely more susceptible to motion sickness than others, I don't think anyone is immune and AFaIK everyone's tolerance improves with exposure. I don't think I've ever become airsick or seasick under "normal" conditions including continuous moderate turbulence in the air and navigating 10 ft waves in a 16 ft boat but 20-30 minutes of aerobatics will make me ready to land if I haven't been flying high g maneuvers in a while. And I totally disagree with Henning that a tendency to experience motion sickness should in any way be considered to be cause for rejection from the flying community. As long as he's willing and able to work through the problem (including learning that he can indeed fly safely even if he's feeling nauseous) I firmly believe this problem can be overcome.

So, as far as the motion sickness aspect goes I think that more flights and specifically flights with limited maneuvering will improve this student's ability to fly without experiencing the nausea and should help prevent a subconscious association between flying and airsickness. But the lack of preparation and apparent attempts to skip important ground work needs attention. Hopefully you can convince him that his lax attitude is incompatible with flying safety. Meanwhile you could combine the two issues by telling him the next time he shows up unprepared that he's not going to have a "real" lesson today, just a simple "fun" flight sans nausea inducing maneuvers and anxiety.

Please, where did I say any such thing. The airsickness was not the issue. I fly hard aerobatics for 20 minutes, I level out, I throw up everything I've eaten in the last week into a bag, secure it, cool off, and go back at it. What I said was the most likely cause behind this guys airsickness disqualifies him, or would at least require an SI medical. He has issues that need to be dealt with, and not many people can or do successfully. I said I don't think it's airsickness either, it was a stress reaction, not motion sickness. The guy is puking scared...

 

[Henning]

Why is it that he's learning how to fly? Is it someone else's idea? I think that some of the most difficult students are the ones who are being pushed by someone else, their spouse, their parents or even their friends. If you don't have the motivation yourself, it's a hard thing to accomplish. Most people like this self-select and eventually drop out because the stress makes it unpleasant. This is particularly the case if someone thought the whole process would be fun.

He's using it as an accomplishment in a self therapy regime because this and a $6.99 self help book is cheaper than a pshrink (and potentially effective). Thing is, it relies on the instructor to step up and be the kids shrink as well as CFI using the airplane as an instrument in the therapy. He has to give the kid the tools to be confident rather than afraid in what he is doing. This will take concerted nonchalance with the student. Can't yell or get upset, and for God's sake, never let your fear show. That's a lot of responsibility for $25hr.....

 

[gismo]

Please, where did I say any such thing. The airsickness was not the issue. I fly hard aerobatics for 20 minutes, I level out, I throw up everything I've eaten in the last week into a bag, secure it, cool off, and go back at it. What I said was the most likely cause behind this guys airsickness disqualifies him, or would at least require an SI medical. He has issues that need to be dealt with, and not many people can or do successfully. I said I don't think it's airsickness either, it was a stress reaction, not motion sickness. The guy is puking scared...

Whether the motion sickness causes him to shut down or the nausea is just a symptom of disabling stress seem immaterial at this point. The real issue is whether or not the student can overcome his limitations and be a successful pilot. I guess what I was really disagreeing with was the idea of just dismissing him solely on the basis of his actions so far. I do agree that there are some warning signs but I don't see why you're so sold on the idea that this particular pilot (who you and I know only from two comments from his instructor) should hang up his wings.

 

[Henning]

Whether the motion sickness causes him to shut down or the nausea is just a symptom of disabling stress seem immaterial at this point. The real issue is whether or not the student can overcome his limitations and be a successful pilot. I guess what I was really disagreeing with was the idea of just dismissing him solely on the basis of his actions so far. I do agree that there are some warning signs but I don't see why you're so sold on the idea that this particular pilot (who you and I know only from two comments from his instructor) should hang up his wings.

If you can show me where I said this, I'd be more able to address it. I said that the student needs to be sat down and presented in no uncertain terms that this will need to be overcome in order to succeed, and what the outcomes of failure on that account will lead to so that the student can assess whether to continue or not. That is just on ethics, you owe them that.

 

[B2Soar]

Kudos to you Henning for taking the time and effort to provide the harsh "truths" of this topic. As you have noted, this concerns matters of life and another harsh reality---DEATH.

 

[gismo]

If you can show me where I said this, I'd be more able to address it. I said that the student needs to be sat down and presented in no uncertain terms that this will need to be overcome in order to succeed, and what the outcomes of failure on that account will lead to so that the student can assess whether to continue or not. That is just on ethics, you owe them that.

Perhaps not in those exact words but:

"this guy isn't wired to be a pilot"

from your first post and then in the next post:

"If the student can't get to this point by hour 20, they probably should be sat down again and told honestly that they are probably not suited to being PIC, and there is a good chance that no matter how much longer they train, they never will be licensed or possibly even soloed."

To be fair in that same post you said:

"If they still want to continue after a bit of introspection with that info, fine."

so I may be taking what you wrote a bit more forcefully than you intended. I'm certainly willing to believe you didn't mean this student should be given up on immediately but I still maintain that there may be lot more involved than we are aware of at this point. Perhaps you agree with that?

 

[Henning]

Perhaps not in those exact words but:

"this guy isn't wired to be a pilot"

from your first post and then in the next post:

"If the student can't get to this point by hour 20, they probably should be sat down again and told honestly that they are probably not suited to being PIC, and there is a good chance that no matter how much longer they train, they never will be licensed or possibly even soloed."

To be fair in that same post you said:

"If they still want to continue after a bit of introspection with that info, fine."

so I may be taking what you wrote a bit more forcefully than you intended. I'm certainly willing to believe you didn't mean this student should be given up on immediately but I still maintain that there may be lot more involved than we are aware of at this point. Perhaps you agree with that?

Sure, depending on what you're aware of.... That was actually my point. The issue isn't about flying, and the dude doesn't stand good odds of getting over it. Ben's got a tough row to hoe...

 

[poadeleted20]

This ain't the military. When you have that chat, do so in a way which does not apply additional stress unless it is your intent to wash him out.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

(even caught him copying old weight-and-balances, and nipped that in the bud!)

Maybe I'm missing something, but... What's wrong with this, assuming he's using the same airplane, same instructor, and same amount of fuel? If you're making him do a recalculation on every flight for a scenario he's already flown and calculated, no wonder he's not prepared - He's gotta do all this "silly" stuff every time he goes flying!

I haven't calculated a W&B in the plane I regularly fly in years. I've done several scenarios, and played with other scenarios until I figured out what the limits are. How much meat has to be in the front seat until you go out of forward CG? Weight in the baggage compartment for aft CG? Etc... Then you stay inside those limits and you don't need to do an actual W&B specific to a particular flight again unless it starts to get close to those limits you've established.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Maybe I'm missing something, but... What's wrong with this, assuming he's using the same airplane, same instructor, and same amount of fuel? If you're making him do a recalculation on every flight for a scenario he's already flown and calculated, no wonder he's not prepared - He's gotta do all this "silly" stuff every time he goes flying!

I haven't calculated a W&B in the plane I regularly fly in years. I've done several scenarios, and played with other scenarios until I figured out what the limits are. How much meat has to be in the front seat until you go out of forward CG? Weight in the baggage compartment for aft CG? Etc... Then you stay inside those limits and you don't need to do an actual W&B specific to a particular flight again unless it starts to get close to those limits you've established.

I agree with this. Math stays pretty constant. If you were well inside the envelope last week, you'll be well inside it today, too. (Assuming the variables remain relatively constant.)

 

[BigAL]

I'm all ears here, can ya clue me in .........how much responsibility is on the CFI? Doesn't the student have some? I'm obviously a noob, and I'm ask'n to learn.

Maybe he shouldn't be figure'n w/the same weight. Throw a bag of feed in there or something, heck I don't know. Mix it up, change your weight, change his, sim a couple people in the back. Getting off topic, sorry.


He's the one who wants to learn, if I were him I'd be eat'n ginger to beat heck and have one of those things Peggy linked to.

Maybe all airports should have a vending machine of ginger? Heck, buy him what I now call a "Peggy Watch". Sorry Peggy, it's already stuck in my head for sure.

I think he's(student) gotta suck it up and take some responsibility. As far as I'm concerned, the CFI is doing him a favor.....that's how I'd take it anyway.

I don't know, right now I couldn't fly for 8hrs anyway.

 

[PHXAvi8tor]

I agree with this. Math stays pretty constant. If you were well inside the envelope last week, you'll be well inside it today, too. (Assuming the variables remain relatively constant.)

Not necessarily. In a large fleet, like where I train, where we have several dozen aircraft, the W&B of a plane can change overnight due to a maintenance issue.

And, they quite often do!

Besides, the W&B he was copying was incorrect, to begin with, and continued to carry over errors. That's how I discovered he was simply copying each time.

ANY time you fly, unless you are the ONLY one flying that plane, and NO ONE else is flying it, you should be double-checking the weight-and-balance, even if it's simply to make sure nothing has changed. Period. The kids I'm training have military and commercial pilot aspirations, and you can bet your butt they are required to ensure nothing has changed with respect to weight-and-balance before each and every single flight.

And, yes, I keep my students on my toes. Some days, I bring my big, old heavy flight bag on purpose in order to change the weight. Other days, I tell them we have a ride-along observer (another student). I usually give them overnight heads-up. This is to keep them on their toes, so they become very adept at weight-shift formulas, and able to change calculations on a moment's notice, as they will be required to do in commercial and military operations.