Airport Identifiers

Snaggletooth

Snaggletooth

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Dustin
When saying/spelling Airport Identifiers why do some people use or leave off the "K"

Example: KLBX or LBX

I've been wondering this for quite sometime, and can never remember to ask my CFI. lol
 
Either is correct while you're in the US. Some systems like it one way, some like it the other. GPS's and the weather service insist on the "K"; DUATS insists on no "K".

O "K"?
 
Snag, whilst your in training, I'd suggest you make an attempt at researching it first (Google, Yahoo, many other resources), then ask for clarification if needed. It'll help you learn and retain the info much better than if we provide all the answers.

No Harm No Foul - just wanting you to learn it. :thumbsup:
 
Joe B said:
Either is correct while you're in the US. Some systems like it one way, some like it the other. GPS's and the weather service insist on the "K"; DUATS insists on no "K".

O "K"?
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Just to be clear the 'K' in only for the CONUS. Alaksa and Hawaii are not part of the CONUS and their airport identifiers are not preceded by 'K'

The other thing is that not all airports within the CONUS even have ICAO identifiers.

The format of an CONUS ICAO airport is K followed by three letters. Generally the next three letters could be the IATA code but it does not have to be. The non-ICAO airports codes are issued by the FAA and consist of a letter and numbers. The FAA codes are called location identifiers or LIDs for short.

BTW weather stations are also issued LIDs and ICAO codes for their identifiers as well.
 
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Thanks everyone!
I did research this before posting. I found nothing so I posted here.
 
As another bent, it's like referring to your telephone number when talking to locals -- it's common to omit your area code
 
smigaldi said:
Just to be clear the 'K' in only for the CONUS. Alaksa and Hawaii are not part of the CONUS and their airport identifiers are not preceded by 'K'
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Alaska is no longer part of the continental US? My God, what happened? Oh the humanity!
 
Same reason they leave off an airplane's N from the identifier? If you're in the USA it's just assumed.
 
IMHO, the only correct way to refer to an Airport is by its ICAO code (including the K) because Aviation is a worldwide thing.

Go somewhere in Europe and see if they omit the E from their airport names (or moreover, if they omit the ED from airports in Germany, etc). I see it as very Americo-centric to omit the K. No offense, just not correct, IMHO.
 
SkyHog said:
IMHO, the only correct way to refer to an Airport is by its ICAO code (including the K) because Aviation is a worldwide thing.

Go somewhere in Europe and see if they omit the E from their airport names (or moreover, if they omit the ED from airports in Germany, etc). I see it as very Americo-centric to omit the K. No offense, just not correct, IMHO.
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Except as noted not all airports have ICAO codes.

As an aside, note that the ICAO airport code is not necessarily the same as the IATA airport code used for booking airline travel, though frequently they are the same.
 
gprellwitz said:
Except as noted not all airports have ICAO codes.

As an aside, note that the ICAO airport code is not necessarily the same as the IATA airport code used for booking airline travel, though frequently they are the same.
Click to expand...

KSAW amd MQT is a good example. :)

And Nick, I have never seen you refer to it as K6Y9!
 
gprellwitz said:
Except as noted not all airports have ICAO codes.

As an aside, note that the ICAO airport code is not necessarily the same as the IATA airport code used for booking airline travel, though frequently they are the same.
Click to expand...

That is true, my bad, I should have mentioned that. For non ICAO Coded airports, the only option is to use the code that the airport has. In New Mexico, we have 58 public use airports, and maybe a dozen ICAO coded airports. The rest are logged in my logbook as 0E0, 1N1, etc. etc.

Again, I don't mean offense to people that use the 3 digit code, I just see it as proper to use the 4 digit ICAO code whenever possible (especially if you plan on doing flights internationally some day. That way you look more like an international pilot :D)
 
EdFred said:
KSAW amd MQT is a good example. :)

And Nick, I have never seen you refer to it as K6Y9!
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6Y9 is a FAA LID it is not an ICAO code and one would be incorrect to refer to it with a K appended as the prefix. All those 3 or 4 digit identifiers with numbers and letters are not ICAO codes that are FAA LIDs.

The IATA codes are three letters so calling say KLAX just LAX is still proper as you are using the IATA code.
 
smigaldi said:
6Y9 is a FAA LID it is not an ICAO code and one would be incorrect to refer to it with a K appended as the prefix. All those 3 or 4 digit identifiers with numbers and letters are not ICAO codes that are FAA LIDs.

The IATA codes are three letters so calling say KLAX just LAX is still proper as you are using the IATA code.
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One of the flight planners puts a K in front of everything.
 
SkyHog said:
IMHO, the only correct way to refer to an Airport is by its ICAO code (including the K) because Aviation is a worldwide thing.
Click to expand...

How do you refer to airports that don't have an ICAO code?


Go somewhere in Europe and see if they omit the E from their airport names (or moreover, if they omit the ED from airports in Germany, etc). I see it as very Americo-centric to omit the K. No offense, just not correct, IMHO.
Click to expand...

Actually, they do more than omit the ED from airports in Germany. The ICAO code for Frankfurt is EDDF, the IATA code is FRA.
 
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snag just a tip for down the road when you're using GPS. If an airport has a navaid with the same name the GPS usually will use the K code for the airport and the regular 3 letter code for the navaid. this can become a problem if the navaid is not located at the airport.

also say you are going to Fort Dodge and you put FOD into the GPS instead of KFOD and then you are trying to shoot an instrument approach and cant get the approach to load and can't figure out what the problem is so you keep trying and cycle power to the gps and are bearing down on the field scratching your head like a monkey in IMC and then *ding* the light goes off and you change it so you are navigating to the AIRPORT instead of the VOR.
 
tonycondon said:
snag just a tip for down the road when you're using GPS. If an airport has a navaid with the same name the GPS usually will use the K code for the airport and the regular 3 letter code for the navaid. this can become a problem if the navaid is not located at the airport.

also say you are going to Fort Dodge and you put FOD into the GPS instead of KFOD and then you are trying to shoot an instrument approach and cant get the approach to load and can't figure out what the problem is so you keep trying and cycle power to the gps and are bearing down on the field scratching your head like a monkey in IMC and then *ding* the light goes off and you change it so you are navigating to the AIRPORT instead of the VOR.
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Which is what's nice on the Garmin, is when you go to dial in a destination/waypoint it defaults at K for the first letter/number.
 
EdFred said:
Which is what's nice on the Garmin, is when you go to dial in a destination/waypoint it defaults at K for the first letter/number.
Click to expand...

yea this was on a 480. but it was really an Apollo CNX80 or whatever they called it.
 
EdFred said:
Which is what's nice on the Garmin, is when you go to dial in a destination/waypoint it defaults at K for the first letter/number.
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Yeah but that is not helpful when I am flying to 10C, 3Ck, 6Y9, etc. It helps when I am going to KSMD, KLOT, etc. 6 of 1 half dozen of the other, but it is a good reminder.
 
tonycondon said:
yea this was on a 480. but it was really an Apollo CNX80 or whatever they called it.
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Yeah, when I first got the 430 I didn't really pay attention, and did the same thing. For me however there was no navaid at the airport, and I couldn't figure out why it wouldn't show up in the database.
 
tonycondon said:
snag just a tip for down the road when you're using GPS. If an airport has a navaid with the same name the GPS usually will use the K code for the airport and the regular 3 letter code for the navaid. this can become a problem if the navaid is not located at the airport.

also say you are going to Fort Dodge and you put FOD into the GPS instead of KFOD and then you are trying to shoot an instrument approach and cant get the approach to load and can't figure out what the problem is so you keep trying and cycle power to the gps and are bearing down on the field scratching your head like a monkey in IMC and then *ding* the light goes off and you change it so you are navigating to the AIRPORT instead of the VOR.
Click to expand...

Equally as important are the navaids with the same name, but a different code than the airport. Stephen Force got bitten by this bug in his podcast of his IR checkride. Was cleared to the Pontiac VOR and dialed PTK into the GPS because Pontiac Airport is KPTK. Pontiac VOR is actually POT, I believe, so he started flying his Cessna 172 to a VOR in Asia somewhere...

Also, a lot of the European airports have different ICAO and IATA codes, don't they?

London-Heathrow EGLL LHR
London-Gatwick EGKK LGW
Paris-Charles DeGaulle LFPG CDG

and many more...
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Equally as important are the navaids with the same name, but a different code than the airport. Stephen Force got bitten by this bug in his podcast of his IR checkride. Was cleared to the Pontiac VOR and dialed PTK into the GPS because Pontiac Airport is KPTK. Pontiac VOR is actually POT, I believe, so he started flying his Cessna 172 to a VOR in Asia somewhere...
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Pontiac MI VOR is PSI.
 
I had a similar problem, though I've never been able to figure out where I was navigating to.

Dialed in SKX instead of KSKX and it took me to some place a long, long ways from where I was supposed to go. The VOR is TAS the airport is KSKX. No idea where SKX is.
 
SkyHog said:
I had a similar problem, though I've never been able to figure out where I was navigating to.

Dialed in SKX instead of KSKX and it took me to some place a long, long ways from where I was supposed to go. The VOR is TAS the airport is KSKX. No idea where SKX is.
Click to expand...

Interesting. SKX is the identifier for Ski NDB, located on the field at Taos Regional Airport, KSKX.
 
SkyHog said:
I had a similar problem, though I've never been able to figure out where I was navigating to.

Dialed in SKX instead of KSKX and it took me to some place a long, long ways from where I was supposed to go. The VOR is TAS the airport is KSKX. No idea where SKX is.
Click to expand...

roncachamp said:
Interesting. SKX is the identifier for Ski NDB, located on the field at Taos Regional Airport, KSKX.
Click to expand...


Maybe you dialed in SKY accidentally. SKY is the VOR/DME in Sandusky, OH.
 
EdFred said:
One of the flight planners puts a K in front of everything.
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The METAR data from the NOAA has a K in front of everything, world-wide. For example, Spikes T82 is KT82 in their released data.

The data released by the FAA has a K in front of nothing. It is all 3 letter.

It's a mess.

smigaldi said:
i am sure that is because the software developer has no real insight into the nuances of identifier standards.
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Perhaps..but since you get conflicting data from different sources it is much easier to just shove a k in front of anything that is three letter and have everything line up. Like I said, METARS all have K, FAA data has no K, etc.

I shove a K in front of every airport that is three letter in my databases. I really need them to align so that I can properly use foreign keys.
 
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jesse said:
Perhaps..but since you get conflicting data from different sources it is much easier to just shove a k in front of anything that is three letter and have everything line up. Like I said, METARS all have K, FAA data has no K, etc.

I shove a K in front of every airport that is three letter in my databases. I really need them to align so that I can properly use foreign keys.
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mistakes beget mistakes. I understand that concept, still does not make it correctly identified by the international treaties that outline exactly how the identifiers are to be used.
 
smigaldi said:
mistakes beget mistakes. I understand that concept, still does not make it correctly identified by the international treaties that outline exactly how the identifiers are to be used.
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Since the data provided to the public for free by the government doesn't match the international standard there is little I can do about it. I'm not about to pay a commercial company to provide me with better data when I don't charge for the products in the first place :)

Find me a free government source with correct identifiers and I'll use it.. Until then..everything gets a K on the front. I need things to line up so that I can maintain data integrity in the relational database. It also makes it easy to provide users with the airport they requested. If they put a K on the front it'll work. If they don't I shove one on the front for them and it works.

I don't think there is a situation where there is a KABC airport that is a different airport than the ABC airport. If there were -- well -- then I'd have a bit of a problem. As would all the data released by the NOAA and FAA.
 
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jesse said:
Since the data provided to the public for free by the government doesn't match the international standard there is little I can do about it. I'm not about to pay a commercial company to provide me with better data when I don't charge for the products in the first place :)

Find me a free government source with correct identifiers and I'll use it.. Until then..everything gets a K on the front. I need things to line up so that I can maintain data integrity in the relational database. It also makes it easy to provide users with the airport they requested. If they put a K on the front it'll work. If they don't I shove one on the front for them and it works.

I don't think there is a situation where there is a KABC airport that is a different airport than the ABC airport. If there were -- well -- then I'd have a bit of a problem. As would all the data released by the NOAA and FAA.
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No one is telling you not to use it. We are just pointing out that it is not correctly formatted.

It does cause problems. People know, to use you example, that T82 is the airport identifier, it is not KT82. But if you want the METAR and ask correctly for T82 you get nothing. Maybe, a user will know that you have to append the K and use KT82 for the NOAA site, but more likely they get annoyed and consider that the NOAA METAR site is a PoS and not worth their time and go elsewhere where they get the info they need by using the correct format.

One thing you could do for your project is to append the K onto a METAR request if the user put in the correct FAA LID.
 
smigaldi said:
No one is telling you not to use it. We are just pointing out that it is not correctly formatted.

It does cause problems. People know, to use you example, that T82 is the airport identifier, it is not KT82. But if you want the METAR and ask correctly for T82 you get nothing. Maybe, a user will know that you have to append the K and use KT82 for the NOAA site, but more likely they get annoyed and consider that the NOAA METAR site is a PoS and not worth their time and go elsewhere where they get the info they need by using the correct format.

One thing you could do for your project is to append the K onto a METAR request if the user put in the correct FAA LID.
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That already works. You can put T82 in and get the proper result.
http://www.jesseweather.com/weather/viewStation/t82
 
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